Slash and Burn ...

[WDW1974]

I chose to comment on these blurbs because I find them interesting.

And here I thought it was just because you enjoyed being a PITA!:ROFLOL:

You lament the loss of "unionized entertainers" while you show contempt for upper management and mock guests (including children) for wanting and prefering something different that just happens to be cheaper to run.

:lookaroun

That really is the problem. Huh?

I am trying (and failing) to figure out your point/criticism of mine.
Do you feel that an empty Diamond Horseshoe is preferable to the days when they had high quality shows for the entire family (i.e. they didn't pander to the under-9 crowd!) with food service there?

Because Disney cut (as stated in my original post) about four times to get down to nothing, which is what we have now.

Guess what? If Disney closed all the attractions at the MK and just offered character meet and greets on Main Street they could save plenty of money.

By chance are you related to a bus driver?

No. By chance are you a bus driver?

 

[EpcotServo]

You really need to drop the obsession with me ... it's not healthy.

I called John 'John' because that's his blanking name.

I have met John (does that make you feel insignificant?) ... I have spoken with him a few times (as an aside, he is a human being not a god ... you do know this right?) ... he was very gracious to me ... as to us going way back well, the first time I met him was in 2000 so does that go far enough back for you? I am not close to John ... we aren't fishing buds ... don't golf together ... but sometimes I do cross paths in the real world (again, does something like that make you feel insignificant? cause it sure seems like it!)

I guess some folks here feel so insignificant that they'll nip at anything.

It's tiresome, but I guess that's what you do when you can't add anything substanitively to a discussion.

that's when "Controversial Board Member" goes over the edge. Always with the "Well what are you contributing of value" statement.

Trust me, I don't entirely disagree with many of your opinions, don't wanna' start anything, but from one citizen to another, that statement is always unbecoming, and usually proceeds trouble.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

If you truly agree with the substance of my posts then tell me that. If you don't, tell me that as well.

But discussing my strong posting style and my use of the term WalMarting is 100% in the opposite direction and is bound to lead to dozens of posts going back and forth (although I won't be taking part in them as I have holiday plans later this week, so my critics can go wild like kids under the tree!)

I think you damn well know I care about WDW and the direction it is headed. If you want to talk about that, I welcome it. But I don't feel like endless discussion about how someone took offense at a post or my sarcasm fell on deaf ears or how someone feels insignificant because I actually know real people in the real world who have or had an impact on Disney's business.

Do you understand how old that gets?

Style and substance are pretty much inseparable in communication. One will ALWAYS be judged in light of the other. It's a universal, inescapable fact of how human beings react to one another.

If you really don't want to go back and forth with people over your personal "style," then you have two options: (1.) Choose a more neutral tone of communication (I'm guessing we can go ahead and strike that one off the list, based on what you've already said) or (2.) just refuse to engage in those kinds of exchanges.

Actually, there's also a third option, which seems to be on display currently: Insist that people stop bringing up the tone and style of your posts and stick to "just the facts, ma'am" ... which is essentially the same as insisting that the sun stop coming up in the East. :shrug:

 

[WDW1974]

Could you enlighten us as to what happened to you at micechat? So much talk and I would love to hear about it right from the horse's mouth.

There's no sordid story to tell.

No story period.

I still post there every once in a while. But they're a DL-centric site and their WDW board is near DOA. There's very little discussion.

But I posted there as recently as last week (I think).

My favorite site for intelligent, adult Disney discussion was and remains LaughingPlace.com.

No avatars, or smileys or trip countdowns or heavy pic posts ... just discussion.

Oh and I was actually invited to post here by a few folks who thought my style might be entertaining with the folks here. I was warned this place was full of Kool Aid drinkers who thought Disney could do no wrong (at least at WDW), but I have found that many people here have open minds and there can be intelligent discussions ... so that's why I am here.

Look at me like a gift that keeps giving!

Happy Holidays! :xmas:

 

[Monty]

Look at me like a gift that keeps giving!

A turn of phrase normally used in reference to VD...


Actually quite appropriate! :lol:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Giving up meat does not necessarily mean you can't have a Big Mac. There's not much meat to be found in one!

Touche. :lol:

And here I've been needlessly avoiding Taco Bell for 9 months, too!

I heard giving up meat actually causes the brain to shrink but the effects don't take place until about 8 or 9 months after going vegetarian..............:lookaroun..............oh. Ummmm nevermind.

Meh...the beer probably did me in there before the diet ever got to it. :shrug:

 

[WDW1974]

Agree with you there: Pixar is the modern classic Disney (but I prefer Brad Bird's and Andrew Stanton's stuff to Lasseter's.)

Agree ... on both counts!

THAT'S my issue with him. I know as soon as he's content with the DCA plans, he'll eventually get around to WDW, but it's taking too long.

I wouldn't count on it.

John has had considerable influence on the new Ratatouille ride slated for DSP. And he's also been a big factor in the plans for Shanghai DL.

I don't see his attention ever really being on WDW, which is sad because the place could use someone with his vision and his committment to quality. Joe Rohde is the closest thing we have, but he only rules over DAK ... and as anyone who has ridden Everest or Dinosaur recently will attest, he can't do what he wants when ops isn't commited to keeping things show quality.

 

[EpcotServo]

Joe Rohde is the closest thing we have, but he only rules over DAK ... and as anyone who has ridden Everest or Dinosaur recently will attest, he can't do what he wants when ops isn't commited to keeping things show quality.

And I don't think he's happy about that...
:lol:

 

[WDW1974]

You're so close to the Chief Creative Officer of the Walt Disney Company, and the best you can do to complain about how they're "slashing and burning" and "WalMarting" the company is to post on an anonymous discussion forum?

Umm...

Where did I ever say we were that close?

I have met and spoken with him ... maybe 5-6 times. Now, that may be more than most people here, but it sure doesn't equate to closeness.

I'm just happy he remembers my name, our second (and longest) conversation and appears to care about my opinions (or is great at faking it, which I don't believe).

It's amazing here how people create their own realities not just about WDW or the people who run it, but other posters as well.

Do you have anything at all to add? Nah. Didn't think so.

 

[Pongo]

Do you have anything at all to add? Nah. Didn't think so.

Funny, I could say the same of you

 

[jt04]

There's no sordid story to tell.

No story period.

I still post there every once in a while. But they're a DL-centric site and their WDW board is near DOA. There's very little discussion.

But I posted there as recently as last week (I think).

My favorite site for intelligent, adult Disney discussion was and remains LaughingPlace.com.

No avatars, or smileys or trip countdowns or heavy pic posts ... just discussion.

Oh and I was actually invited to post here by a few folks who thought my style might be entertaining with the folks here. I was warned this place was full of Kool Aid drinkers who thought Disney could do no wrong (at least at WDW), but I have found that many people here have open minds and there can be intelligent discussions ... so that's why I am here.

Look at me like a gift that keeps giving!

Happy Holidays! :xmas:

Well I have been posting here for a couple years and have often been a critic of stuff I don't think is WDW-esque. I have visited WDW many times since it opened. So, where offering criticism in concerned, welcome to the party. I was critisized and I have been put on WDWMagic probation a couple times. But I think people realize now I only want to see the product keep it's original quality.

That said, I am not sure you always are as well connected as you think and sometimes things happen in a certain way because of circumstances you and I are not aware of. In that light your posts come off as more of a rant then anything else.

As for the Diamond Horseshoe, I'd be in heaven if they converted it to a Ghiradellis ice cream parlor and offered seasonal entertainment on stage. One of the problems with CS locations is that guests (mostly DVC and AP's I suspect) take over the tables for hours on end. So this makes offering live shows difficult to stage (too many guests, not enough showtimes) and results in guest complaints in that they can't possibly seat the number of guests who would like to see the show.

So it is not as easy as just bringing back the show. In some ways the Magic Kingdom is a victim of its own success.

 

[WDW1974]

Style and substance are pretty much inseparable in communication. One will ALWAYS be judged in light of the other. It's a universal, inescapable fact of how human beings react to one another.

If you really don't want to go back and forth with people over your personal "style," then you have two options: (1.) Choose a more neutral tone of communication (I'm guessing we can go ahead and strike that one off the list, based on what you've already said) or (2.) just refuse to engage in those kinds of exchanges.

Actually, there's also a third option, which seems to be on display currently: Insist that people stop bringing up the tone and style of your posts and stick to "just the facts, ma'am" ... which is essentially the same as insisting that the sun stop coming up in the East. :shrug:

Very good points.

I think I am going to attempt No. 2 unless people get totally off-base. But I just don't want to waste time talking about me and my writing style.

It obvious gets attention. If people didn't enjoy reading we wouldn't be approaching 30 pages here. But when 3/4ers of it is just BS ... well, I don't need to help that way.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[ttalovebug]

There's no sordid story to tell.

No story period.

I still post there every once in a while. But they're a DL-centric site and their WDW board is near DOA. There's very little discussion.

But I posted there as recently as last week (I think).

My favorite site for intelligent, adult Disney discussion was and remains LaughingPlace.com.

No avatars, or smileys or trip countdowns or heavy pic posts ... just discussion.

Oh and I was actually invited to post here by a few folks who thought my style might be entertaining with the folks here. I was warned this place was full of Kool Aid drinkers who thought Disney could do no wrong (at least at WDW), but I have found that many people here have open minds and there can be intelligent discussions ... so that's why I am here.

Look at me like a gift that keeps giving!

Happy Holidays! :xmas:

And you wonder why people don't like your posts?!

Listen, I'm no kool-aid drinker, and when your posts have actual substance I agree with you. But the personal attacks and the condescending comments are what drives me, and everbody else, away from taking the time to even see your point.










And what's wrong with smileys?
:dazzle::brick::lol:

 

[WDWFigment]

WalMarting wasn't a word the last time I looked in a dictionary. I've been using it for years to describe WDW's (and TWDC's business model) ... and even using your 'definition' I am in no way misusing anything. And yeah, it is my buzzword. Because WalMarting refers to the lowest common denominator. It refers to dumbing down quality to that level. It certainly refers to globalization when you have Jay Rasulo's umbrella idea of Disney Parks: Where Dreams Come True.

Because WalMart is so known for ... well crap at a low price that largely appeals to the poorest in our society ... WalMarting is the perfect term to describe what is happening at WDW.




Clearly you spent a lot of time honing your post in a way to come off like an intelligent reasoned voice. I respect that.

But again, when WalMarting actually has a definition in our language, perhaps then we can talk. I've been using it for many, many years and I'll stick with my use of the term.

That's not laziness.

WalMart represents the very worst of our consumer culture and when it seeps into the soul of a (once) first class resort like WDW, I feel the term sums up things very well.

FWIW, many folks inside Disney agree with me. It grabs attention and has a very negative conotation. I'm very comfortable with that.





Glad to hear it, which is why that's what should be discussed NOT ME!

ah ... but here we go in for the shot to the head!




I post the way I post. Period. I respond in kind to the way I am responded to.

I am not here to be endearing. People decide very quickly whether or not they like my message or not ... and once they do, they don't change sides.

If you truly agree with the substance of my posts then tell me that. If you don't, tell me that as well.

But discussing my strong posting style and my use of the term WalMarting is 100% in the opposite direction and is bound to lead to dozens of posts going back and forth (although I won't be taking part in them as I have holiday plans later this week, so my critics can go wild like kids under the tree!)

I think you damn well know I care about WDW and the direction it is headed. If you want to talk about that, I welcome it. But I don't feel like endless discussion about how someone took offense at a post or my sarcasm fell on deaf ears or how someone feels insignificant because I actually know real people in the real world who have or had an impact on Disney's business.

Do you understand how old that gets?

Of course you do. So don't all of my in your face critics who want me to leave the MAGIC playground, so they can sit around and talk about how perfect WDW is 24/7.




No. I disagree. McDonald's actually has a consistent product that, whether you believe it or not, is known for its high quality around the world. It's only here in our WalMarted country that McDonald's has become known as a place for crappy, unhealthy junk food. Try one in Hong Kong ... or Milan ... or Paris ... or Beijing or ... and you'll realize that. I have (oops, now I am dropping the fact I am a world traveler and people who think WDW is the be all and end all are going to feel insiginificant when all I am doing is illustrating a point!!!)

The bottom line is when I know that WalMarting bothers people at TWDC a great deal, why in the hell would I not want to use it?

WalMart=crap.

If Disney doesn't like its name used in the same sentence then they should take that into consideration the next time they dumb their product down/further homogenize it/cut quality.

I appreciate your reasoned post (really ... I'd use a smart-assed smiley if I didn't) ... but you're wasting time that could be better spent discussing WDW.

As much as I want to follow your post up with my own retort (I'm not saying this as my 'shot' that you're wrong. I think a lot of the quoted post is correct, or at least tenable. However, I'm one of those types who will defend my opinion with any logical argument I can construe, regardless of whether I actually believe it), but I won't do it because of the part of your post that I've bolded, and given that I would rather not be one of the folks deflecting every one of your topics from substantive discussion. I will just leave it at this: it is something about which reasonable minds could disagree, and you and I clearly disagree.

As far as contributing something substantive to this thread at this juncture, I think I will abstain. I arrived too late to the party (I had some of those unfortunate "real world" responsibilities to which I had to attend) and now I don't believe there's salvageable conversation. I look forward to the next thread that you start, though.

 

[WDW1974]

Well I have been posting here for a couple years and have often been a critic of stuff I don't think is WDW-esque. I have visited many times since it opened. So, where offering criticism in concerned, welcome to the party. I was critisized and been put on WDWMagic probation a couple times. But I think people realize now I only want to see the product keep it's original quality.

WDWMAGIC probation? What do they do? Make you wear a lanyard while eating a turkey leg and driving an ECV naked up Main Street when the place is closing and everyone is headed out?

That said, I am not sure you always are as well connected as you think and sometimes things happen in a certain way because of circumstances you and I are not aware of. In that light your posts come off as more of a rant then anything else.

Whatever you want to believe ... doesn't change reality.

As for the Diamond Horseshoe, I'd be in heaven if they converted it to a Ghiradellis ice cream parlor and offered seasonal entertainment on stage. One of the problems with CS locations is that guests (mostly DVC and AP's I suspect) take over the tables for hour on end. So this makes offering live shows difficult to stage (too many guests, not enough showtimes) and results in guest complaints in that they can't possibly seat the number of guests who would like to see the show.

So it is not as easy as just bringing back the show. In some ways the Magic Kingdom is a victim of it's own success.

Disagree. Simply go back to the old ways of people making same day ressies for the shows. It worked for 20-25 years. It's beyond pathetic to see the place sit empty knowing how much fun the shows used to be there.

 

[jt04]

WDWMAGIC probation? What do they do? Make you wear a lanyard while eating a turkey leg and driving an ECV naked up Main Street when the place is closing and everyone is headed out?



Whatever you want to believe ... doesn't change reality.



Disagree. Simply go back to the old ways of people making same day ressies for the shows. It worked for 20-25 years. It's beyond pathetic to see the place sit empty knowing how much fun the shows used to be there.

The reality of the first 25 years is not the reality today. You seem to be stuck there. There are work arounds in some instances but you can't always just do things like you did before. That is a result of change. Now they could always move the Horseshoe show to DTD and make a dinner show out of it as a viable solution. (some have even speculated the FW show might move there).

I have no solution for your A.D.

WDWMagic probation is much worse than what you imagined.:drevil:
You don't want to end up there. :fork:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I'm one of those types who will defend my opinion with any logical argument I can construe, regardless of whether I actually believe it

And if memory serves me right, aren't you a law student/graduate? Sounds like you definitely picked the right career. :lol:

 

[WDW1974]

The reality of the first 25 years is not the reality today. You seem to be stuck there.

I am not stuck anywhere (except in Florida right now!).

But the idea that the ways that worked for 40 years (25 in FLA) of theme park operation, the ways that were thrown out when the consultants and other outsiders were brought in wouldn't work now is very simplistic.

It is part and parcel of WalMarting.

It's much like folks saying we have to lay off 35,000 workers and send jobs to India to be 'lean and mean' and 'compete in a global marketplace' ... it sounds good to Wall Street, but it is destroying our country. But it doesn't matter, the folks who lose those $80,000 a year jobs ... they'll do just fine on $9 an hour 20 hours a week at Starbucks or Target (IF and that's a huge IF they can get hired).

OK ... heading off on a tangent, but your point rings true of that mindset.

That it's 2008 and we can't do things like we did 20 years. That would never work.

Why not?

Because you've changed your business model? Because making a profit isn't even enough? Because your consultants have said quality live entertainment isn't what WDW visitors want, bur rather ALL character meet-greet-and-gropes?

The Diamond Horseshoe didn't suddenly stop working. People were still filling it up for performances. It didn't lose touch with its audience. Disney decided to kill it for cheaper, dumber entertainment.

There are work arounds in some instances but you can't always just do things like you did before. That is a result of change. Now they could always move the Horseshoe show to DTD and make a dinner show out of it as a viable solution. (some have even speculated the FW show might move there).

That would be crazy. It's in Frontierland because that's where a western-themed saloon show belongs. Not DD. Same reason you would never move Hoop De Doo to DD.

But I still haven't heard a legit reason from you (or anyone else, including Disney execs I've spoken to) as to why this show had to die ... other than money.

I have no solution for your A.D.

AD? Assistant director. Arrested development (what a great show!)

WDWMagic probation is much worse than what you imagined.:drevil:
You don't want to end up there. :fork:

Well ... I am sure there are many here who would just like my voice silenced to fit their own agendas and World views.

But I can play nice!

 

[WDW1974]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDWFigment
I'm one of those types who will defend my opinion with any logical argument I can construe, regardless of whether I actually believe it

And if memory serves me right, aren't you a law student/graduate? Sounds like you definitely picked the right career. :lol:

Just what we need ... more lawyers.

Hey did you hear the joke 'What do you call a million dead lawyers on the bottom of the sea?' .... Not nearly enough!

 

[yankspy]

I am not stuck anywhere (except in Florida right now!).

But the idea that the ways that worked for 40 years (25 in FLA) of theme park operation, the ways that were thrown out when the consultants and other outsiders were brought in wouldn't work now is very simplistic.

It is part and parcel of WalMarting.

It's much like folks saying we have to lay off 35,000 workers and send jobs to India to be 'lean and mean' and 'compete in a global marketplace' ... it sounds good to Wall Street, but it is destroying our country. But it doesn't matter, the folks who lose those $80,000 a year jobs ... they'll do just fine on $9 an hour 20 hours a week at Starbucks or Target (IF and that's a huge IF they can get hired).

OK ... heading off on a tangent, but your point rings true of that mindset.

That it's 2008 and we can't do things like we did 20 years. That would never work.

Why not?

Because you've changed your business model? Because making a profit isn't even enough? Because your consultants have said quality live entertainment isn't what WDW visitors want, bur rather ALL character meet-greet-and-gropes?

The Diamond Horseshoe didn't suddenly stop working. People were still filling it up for performances. It didn't lose touch with its audience. Disney decided to kill it for cheaper, dumber entertainment.



That would be crazy. It's in Frontierland because that's where a western-themed saloon show belongs. Not DD. Same reason you would never move Hoop De Doo to DD.

But I still haven't heard a legit reason from you (or anyone else, including Disney execs I've spoken to) as to why this show had to die ... other than money.



AD? Assistant director. Arrested development (what a great show!)



Well ... I am sure there are many here who would just like my voice silenced to fit their own agendas and World views.

But I can play nice!

There was a sinkhole under the building.:lookaroun