Slash and Burn ...

[WDW1974]

You've never put anyone down for being a fanboy, but you attempt to dismiss someone who provides a rational response to you overly doom and gloom report of rumour as "A mere baby in the world"? You took most of what he pointed out and tried to say "See? you're saying the same things as I am!" when in fact he was putting significantly less negativity into his summation on what we can expect in the short term from Disney. I don't care what your sources are for whatever you post because by the time you've put it in your own words it no longer has value.

Your negative slant and your arrogant defence of it removes any credibility from anything you post.

I never put the poster in question down. I am impressed that someone as young as he is came off with such a well thought through post, despite the fact I absolutely disagree with his conclusions.

He is entitled to believe whatever he chooses, but his perspective isn't that of someone who has more experience. That isn't a putdown. It's a statement of fact.

And I am tired of the negative label. It gets old. I am speaking realistically based upon what I know and while I wish I could be giddy about what is going on at WDW, I can't. As a Disney lover, media industry follower and shareholder, I see the damage that is being done.

Enjoy the Kool Aid and pixie dust!

 

[jedimaster1227]

Yes. His response was reasoned. I didn't even know until five minutes ago that the poster in question is all of 17 years old. A mere baby in the world.

And yet he had a very rational, articulate response ... one that I didn't find much fault with until his close (which made me think he may have a future ahead of him as a WDW PR hack!)

FWIW, I have never put anyone down for being a 'fanboy' ... what would the Disney universe be without 'em, right?

But if you think my posts come off as fanboy drivel then I'd suggest you develop more critical thinking skills.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but my age doesn't really seem to be of importance here... As for referring to me as a potential PR "hack," I have to say that your belief in their active interaction in these communities are minimal, if not nonexistant. These surveyors or "marketeers" as I prefer to call them sample these markets to see what the interest is. The best example of this kind of research was the post-test response to the Team Possible Challenge that was tested two years ago. Not only was the media informed of the tests (to stir up hype and response) but the communities and forums were made aware of the tests through informative posts here and there. Based on the responses made to the concept in question as well as the data collected from the actual test, a newly updated concept was prepared to become what we now know as the upcoming Kim Possible World Showcase Adventure.

NOT COMING BACK! Considering many of the deals for the additional restaurants and shopping venues for P.I. 2.0 have fallen through, nothing is definite yet. Surveyors have been seriously looking at retaining much of the former club to become a dining venue.

Except the competition, which is in rougher shape than Disney. They're investing over a billion in Orlando over the 2008-2010 timeframe. The competition greenlit those projects at least a year ago, if not earlier. Like I said before, the projects that were already in the development/preparation pipeline for Disney will happen due to the amount of work that has already gone into their development. Universal and Seaworld are in the same boat. Universal greenlit Rip, Ride, Rockit, the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, the Simpsons, Disaster and several additional projects on the way long before the recession hit the point that it did, leading Disney to make proactive movements to protect itself. Seaworld has done the same with the construction of Manta, the continued updating of their many attractions including A'Lure, the construction of Aquatica as well as the preparation for the construction of two hotel towers to complete their resort. Seaworld's own decisions evidence the pre-datedness of their initially dated green light, specifically shown by the complete update of Shamu's Happy Harbor as well as the completion of the Shamu Stadium's final seating area, adding several hundred additional seats to the already large capacity of the theater.

Many projects that were supposidly on their way have hit roadblocks including the Great Orlando Wheel. The projects already underway like the expansion to the Peabody Hotel will continue, much like the projects already underway at Disney.

Again, the smart business, the one looking to be in good shape when things get better (and they will ... eventually) knows it needs to have something to offer to entice people to come back ... and maybe get them there now. "Smart" is an extremely subjective concept. Your claim of what a smart business is seems to be based more on opinion than on fact. Again, when looking at the bigger picture, including the operational costs and other numbers that management has crunched, the decisions made are done so that the larger, more visible actions are not needed. If you had to choose between the seasonal closure of a few attractions and the cutting of a few additional effects or observances when compared to the decision to shut down parks on staggered schedule en mass, the choice is quite clear. Disney has taken the high road by cutting costs for the less visible.

I myself am a purist in that I look for an attraction to be completely immersive, but when looking at the costs realistically, I would rather lose a few effects than an entire attraction, even for a short period of time.

You don't do that by cutting. You do that by investing. Actually, you do that by equalizing. To invest, you need additional money. To break even when investing, there must be a surplus. When there is not a surplus (and there is no credit to be given), then the funds must be taken from wherever they can be borrowed. In this case, those funds are coming from the seasonal attractions and some of the more costly effects and observances of the resort. You can't invest with money you don't have. You also can't actively spend money if you aren't making enough to break even. By borrowing in smaller amounts from the smaller details, Disney has been able to break even, rather than dipping into the red, where the stockholders would really start to panic.

Labor, materials and construction are all at lows. That's why you spend now (saving money in the short term) while adding value in the long term. Again, if you have no surplus from which to borrow, it doesn't matter the prices for such aspects are low--if you can't break even, then recovery will be more difficult. Excess damages from excess borrowing will mean that once the economy recovers, the resorts will hit an even slower period during which they must be even more conservative to recover from the damages made in spending money that wasn't there. Instead, Disney has worked to break even, making their rate of recovery far stronger--allowing for major developments to resume once the economy picks up.

Do you really want to see the same tired, stale MK offerings in 2012 that you see now? because that's how things are stacking up ... It has never been a question of want... What fans want and what the company needs are two very different things. Some parks endure up to 30 years without new attractions, but are still able to survive by breaking even (take Marineland for example). The company has acted based on necessity, rather than want. If the company consistently acted on want rather than need, they would have been bought up far sooner than Hard Rock Park in its single year. Progressive business calls for progressive development, especially in times of economic strife. It isn't 2005 anymore, and the company isn't willing to spend the capital to expand their parks like they did during the Happiest Celebration on Earth. Though it may be disappointing from a fan's perspective, this is a business wise decision.

Maybe instead of cutting park hours and resots and staff. Disney should start with cutting prices. To break even and still have money to keep the parks running at Disney quality, they are unable to lower prices. Trust me when I say that if Disney could lower prices (it would, in fact make the resorts appeal to more guests), they would. But, between operating costs, maintenance and upkeep charges as well as the addition of special events costs (like the Flower and Garden Festival, Star Wars Weekends and such), they are unable to break even without increased costs.

In these hard times, people WANT to get away from it all. Why not offer them a killer deal on park tickets, hotel rooms, food and merch. Forget any funky price or discount codes. Just roll all the prices down by 40% across the board. But again, it isn't a question of want. The fact is, the company can't afford to lower prices without coming up short each day.

Disney's making plenty of money. They HAVE plenty of money.
It wouldn't kill them to make a little less for the next few years. Plenty of money, relatively. That money is invested in the many aspects of the company; the parks aren't the only asset Disney has to pay for annually. To take money from another division, since they can't take more than what they already have in their budgets would hinder other divisions, resulting in damage of the company as a whole--the larger picture.

The thing is, Disney's acting like they're practically on the verge of bankruptcy with all these cuts. But of course they're not, they're still one of the most powerful entertainment companies in the world. Sure, the economy is bad, but its not like they're a small buisness trying to survive or anything.

But that is just it--they aren't acting like they are nearing bankruptcy. These a minor cuts when compared to the complete closure of parks, whether staggered or permanent. At least three US parks have closed this year due to financial failure, all of which spent too much to survive the season.

If Disney were approaching bankruptcy, you'd see whole parks close. Effects that are shut off and observances that are no longer continued are losses, but not the shuttering of the company. I can't stress enough how minimal these cuts are when compared to the greater possibilities that other parks have been stricken with.

So since they make more money now, that justifies removing a pavillion and restaurant from the average guest's park experience? God, that's a frightening bit of logic. Wouldn't it have made sense to replace them with something available to the average guest, something that would make for a better day at Epcot year-round?

While its not logic, it is business savy. The additional funds brought in from convention/group venues far surprises average guest spending. The money spent to use those venues goes right back into the development of the parks, so in turn, their general loss means visible gain in the long run.

 

[WDW1974]

Bravo Monty. Your last line sums up my feelings exactly.

Of course you will now be dutifully dismissed for disagreeing with the DISNEY GOD!

edit: (I love alliteration)

Boy, you must really feel insignificant ...

FWIW, I am no DISNEY GOD! ... But I'll put my knowledge and connections up against anyone's here.:wave:

 

[mcjaco]

At least three US parks have closed this year due to financial failure, all of which spent too much to survive the season.

Hmmm, Hard Rock Park and Cypress Gardens are the only two that come to mind. HRP had a terrible plan from the get go, you knew that park was going to fail before it even got off the ground. And Cypress.....please, that park has been on the brink for years. Those are two bad choices to back your argument up. You're better that that. :animwink:

But I'll put my knowledge and connections up against anyone's here.:wave:

That's the first post of yours that really rubbed my rhubarb the wrong way.

 

[Pongo]

As a Disney lover, media industry follower and shareholder, I see the damage that is being done.

It is very possible, and I speak from experience, be all three of those at the age of 17 as well :wave:

 

[marni1971]

It`s a world of laughter, a world of tears.....

 

[Pongo]

It`s a world of laughter, a world of tears.....

You can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter."

:lookaroun

 

[Lee]

Like I said before, the projects that were already in the development/preparation pipeline for Disney will happen due to the amount of work that has already gone into their development.

Ok, Adam...help me out with this. (I have yet to get a good answer from anyone involved.)

Let's take that statement above and apply it to Space Mountain. I am fairly sure that it's budget was approved quite some time ago, and not a small budget. I'm talking the "close for a year or more and do it right" budget.
Now...not so much. From your perspective, did that budget cut happen as a result of the economy, or is it due more to the other factors I have heard of?
Just looking for some insight....
:wave:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It`s a world of laughter, a world of tears.....

I woulda gone with New Horizons, but OK.:lol:

 

[One Lil Spark]

Ok, Adam...help me out with this. (I have yet to get a good answer from anyone involved.)

Let's take that statement above and apply it to Space Mountain. I am fairly sure that it's budget was approved quite some time ago, and not a small budget. I'm talking the "close for a year or more and do it right" budget.
Now...not so much. From your perspective, did that budget cut happen as a result of the economy, or is it due more to the other factors I have heard of?
Just looking for some insight....
:wave:

And these are, of course, stuff you probably can't talk to us about?

 

[EpcotServo]

did that budget cut happen as a result of the economy, or is it due more to the other factors I have heard of?
Just looking for some insight....
:wave:

Other factors?


Like...Ghosts?


:lookaroun

:lol:

 

[WDW1974]

Originally Posted by WDW1974
Where are the new attractions? Progressively rolling out. You may not see it, but steps are underway for multiple new attractions around the World. Specifically the Studios, Epcot and Magic Kingdom are far into prep work. And Animal Kingdom has a whole new offering on the way--hence the largely expensive lighting package that was just installed (as a test for the larger picture) in Dinoland USA.

You can always use that line because Disney is always planning. The vast majority of what is planned never gets built. That's why Disney geeks get wonderful coffee table books of artwork for all the amazing things that got the budget ax or weren't realistic for other reasons.

I know of about two dozen projects proposed for WDW that are/were in some state of development behind the scenes.

It doesn't mean that a third of them will ever get built. And that's in the best of times.

I'm not aware of the lighting in Dinoland that you're talking of. I do know the park was built with an a nice system that never got used much because the park almost never was open past dusk. I know more lighting was added for Everest and in anticipation of Rivers of Light.

Cutting quality and raising prices overall (deals aside) isn't a smart way of running a creative enterprise no matter what state the economy is in. I don't agree with you in the least. Like others have said, would you rather them run their business into the ground by keeping all of the unnessecaries in addition to the staples? They are acting wise in terms of financial and economic scenarios--though the fans may not like the fact that some extra magic may be lost during this recession, that loss is minor compared to the closure of a park or two on a staggered schedule. Once again, I ask you to look at the larger picture.

The problem is -- and a point that you and others keep missing/ignoring -- that so much that you are quick to term 'unnecessary' has been cut since the mid-1990s that there isn't simply anything left. So many of the Disney Details ... what truly set Disney apart ... simply were budgeted away in better periods due to a model for unsustainable continued return on investment.

Again, being 17, you may not even be aware of them let alone experienced them. Not a putdown, a statement of fact.

Disney mined all the fat from WDW in the 1990s when The Mouse used Parks and Resorts to prop up the bottom line when other divisions weren't pulling their weight. And when times are tough and people are looking for reasons to NOT visit, Disney shouldn't be giving them by lowering quality.

I also have stated in other discussions here that if Disney feels the need to close a park or two a day or two a week that, while unpleasant, it is far better than just keep slashing quality and nickel and diming guests.

I'm asking you to look at the larger picture. I see it quite clearly. I talk to friends at WDI who are about to lose jobs. I talk to friends who used to work at the company. I work in the media/PR business in the real world. I have some clue what I am talking about.


And I am not claiming Armegeddon, but I am stating that Disney is running its Parks and Resorts Division in a way that I don't believe is in the best interest of the guests in general, cast, shareholders, Disney's legacy and am I leaving anyone out? ...oh, and fanboys too! And I disagree with your point, except for Bob Iger, no one has a greater influence on what happens at WDW than Rasulo and Staggs ... followed by WDW's Marketing Machine and then its exec 'leadership' team. Without going too far into detail, the people that cry wolf like you did in your original post often "scare" stockholders with claims that are not substantiated (or analyzed seriously)--this only hurts the company, as people who get scared sell those shares. I'm just using this as an example to point out what your post seems to have tried to do--scare.

My post wasn't meant to do anything but inform, first of all.

And stockholders, the ones of significance, aren't reading Disney fan site discussion boards to decide whether or not to hold onto their stock. They're watching the market, talking to their brokers and watching the analysts on MSNBC.


Do I place the blame with Bob?

Ultimately, hell yeah I do. He has made some smart moves since taking the helm at Disney, but I think many people so reviled Michael Eisner (again, I don't quite get all of that but ...) he was given way too much credit for knowing what he's doing. Without knowing the full story, can you honestly pin any more blame on Staggs or Rasulo than people did on Eisner. People in administrative positions take the blame for far more than they are guilty of. Try to once again look for the larger picture in order to find the right story--calling on scapegoats doesn't help anyone.

No one knows the full story except perhaps Bob Iger. But I do know how the company is structured and run. Jay Rasulo runs the parks and resorts. Tom Staggs runs all the numbers for the entire company. Those aren't 'administrative' positions. Those are power positions. And I'll place the blame where it is richly deserve. I understand how these folks' short-term decisions have been negatively impacting Disney guests, cast, shareholders ... and yeah, geeks too.



OK ... you had me until the very end. 'Protect the integrity of the parks?!??!' Even my buddy/WDI gadfly Lee MacDonald of LP.com wouldn't utter such a line ... well, maybe he would. Do you work for Disney?

Because you're spinning this like an expert here -- and no offense is intended, I'm just telling you how the above reads. I know there is nothing progressive about Disney and these cuts show a total lack of regard for the big picture and the integrity of Disney. Instead, they are small-minded moves designed to improve the bottom line for the next quarter and make sure tomorrow's stock price doesn't drop a few dimes. There is no long-term vision. If there was the MK wouldn't be so tired and stale when the last few years have been so good (and the 90s were great financially too!) I'm not trying to call myself an expert, but I'm trying to find reason in your posts. You start an extravagant thread targeting two officials who much of what you posted wouldn't even be under their jurisdiction and then go on about how they are hurting the resort with their decisions, but its the contrary.

Extravagant? Ultimately how WDW is run, again, is determined by Rasulo and Staggs and how they place/allocate funds (or don't) to WDW. It is then up to the WDW execs how to meet the financial numbers given to them. So while Jay or Tom may not be saying 'cut hours' or 'outsource that department' it is their mandates that force those choices to be made.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that if WDW's 'leadership' team had vision they might be able to come up with more creative ways of reaching the numbers without doing the damage they are. But there isn't any vision at TDO.

<<Wonders of Life makes more money now than it ever did as an amusement pavilion, as does Odyssey.>>

So, you think that's a justification for shuttering those locations?
I bet Journey 3.0 would make more money if you added pole dancers and a bar, but that's really not what Disney is supposed to be.

<<The Swan Boats were a terribly low capacity attraction that hindered the park. It was pulled for a reason.>>

Hindered the park? How did it hinder the park? I'm curious since you were what minus-6 when they closed it? FWIW, it was always intended as a minor attraction and was a nice diversion. I actually rode it a few times.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Wow. I go away for a few days and look at all the fun I've missed.

I'm not sure why all the hate is flying toward WDW1974. It's really puzzling me. And it's not my job to defend him, he can do just fine on his own... I'm just not understanding why quite a few people that are normally pretty objective and level-headed are flying off the handle and making some pretty rough comments in his direction. Knocking him for not using multi-quote function (which I myself hadn't come across till recently)? Feels kinda petty to me... People giving him a hard time for calling someone 17 young? That's a total spin on what he said. He was COMPLIMENTING jedi. That wasn't hard to see. Being offended by someone saying they're as confident of their connections and sources of information as anyone here could be? Why is that an issue? If I had an inside view and wanted to talk about that view with fellow Disney Park fans, I wouldn't have a problem telling people I felt confident of my sources. Lee and Corrus and Martin have all made comments about having inside info, and no one has ever jumped THEM (for good reason, I might add).

It's obvious we're not dealing with ReDisneyE-Dew or whatever the heck his name was. That guy made all KINDS of stuff up, yet MANY on this board were waiting for his next posts with baited breath, totally on board that he was legit. Whole threads were started saying "when's he gonna post again!! WOO HOO!" Because he was spitting out stuff that people wanted to hear. Now here's someone with a clear track record here and on other sites who's providing a viewpoint that doesn't seem to popular with some, so here come the claws. I don't get it.

WDW AS A WHOLE HAS LOST FOCUS. Shuttered attractions, very little proactive actions, rising prices all around, scaled back refurbs, fewer dining options, and attention to detail falling by the wayside, just to name a few. Can anyone argue against that??? Can anyone back up the path our beloved WDW has been on for the past handful of years?? Especially when compared to any of the other Disney resorts around the world??

How can anyone so quickly dismiss everything he's saying as fanboy related vitriol when it's ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS?!?!?!?

It's felt, for quite some time now, that WDW has been working towards making their guests "okay" with removal of little details here and there. They've been conditioning us. Like when the gas companies would raise gas to $3 a gallon, then drop it back to $2.50 and everyone would be happy, even though it started the year at $2. The same thing is happening here with Disney Parks. And everyone that is saying they're okay with Disney cutting details here and there that you KNOW won't return because most people don't notice those details anyway, well... I feel like they've got ya right where they want ya. They've done their job with you.

 

[jt04]

Thanks jedimaster for taking the time you do to respond in a detailed manner. I can tell you are busy but still invest time here informing us of what is going on.

The stuff you write rings absolutely true to me as opposed to what wdw74 writes which seems to ALWAYS be slanted to the negative.

The tidbit about new lighting in Dinoland speaks volumes about the future of AK and WDW is getting some new attractions so it isn't as bad as some let on.

Now if wdw74 thinks he is the "most informed on these boards" it is because he never read any "ReDis" postings. (kidding :lol

*runs for cover*

 

[Lee]

And these are, of course, stuff you probably can't talk to us about?

Right. Because I don't want people with torches and pitch forks storming the MK....
Like this: :fork:

 

[WDW1974]

I don't know about Sea World as I don't stay up to date on that park like I should, but while I love Universal I'm not sure I can give them all the kudo's you all are. The money for HP and for Rip, Ride, Rockit were all put aside before this economic crisis began. So just like Disney is doing, they're continuing on with those projects because they were too far along to stop. However, they're cutting costs like crazy as well.

Well, you can always stop. No matter what stage you are at. The eyesore at Pop Century proves that.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic point, though. But I'd also add that Disney should have no trouble (again, look at its stock vs. other media companies) in obtaining funds necessary to freshen its parks. We're not talking about billions of dollars here.

Are any of you a fan of Poseidon's Fury in IOA? I sure was. Guess what, that attraction has been destroyed at least for the time being. The water has been turned off. That means no more fountains at the front, no more water vortex (the best part of the attraction), no more water rising and coming out of the fish's mouth as the water rises around you. That ride no longer has water in it.

Not really. I always felt it was a lot of kewl effects with no cohesive story surrounding it. I last saw it in April and all water worked fine. I don't know how you run that without the vortex. Could it be there are some problems that simply need fixing instead of assuming this is a cutback?

FWIW, I'll ask my Uni friends if they know anything about this.

Have you been on Simpson's lately? All the fog and water effects in there have been turned off as well. They're making cuts left and right as well in an attempt to cut costs during this troubling time of tourism. I can't really blame the resorts for many of the cuts they're having to make (although I do believe that some of them are shortsighted). I do however have a fear that these cuts won't return after the economy gets better which is why I specifically took time to call and register a complaint with Universal regarding the Water Vortex at Poseidon's. I'm deathly afraid that they'll turn it off and no one will complain and then the bean counters will say, see nobody even noticed that effect and its really expensive to run, we should just leave it off. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

I was on Simpsons on 10/26 and all was operative then.

But look at Disney ... Everest, the new 'signature' attraction at DAK runs with most of its effects inoperable (something that back in the 1980s and 90s would have had the ride shut down until things were fixed!) ... the highlight of the Nemo clam ride's angler fish hasn't worked in months ... the Davy Jones effect hasn't been working most of the time on PoC.

So ... I'm not looking to complain about the competition. I'm looking for Disney to get its damn act together. For $79 a day, these things should all be running in 100% show quality. Period. No excuses.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Well, you can always stop. No matter what stage you are at. The eyesore at Pop Century proves that.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic point, though. But I'd also add that Disney should have no trouble (again, look at its stock vs. other media companies) in obtaining funds necessary to freshen its parks. We're not talking about billions of dollars here.



Not really. I always felt it was a lot of kewl effects with no cohesive story surrounding it. I last saw it in April and all water worked fine. I don't know how you run that without the vortex. Could it be there are some problems that simply need fixing instead of assuming this is a cutback?

FWIW, I'll ask my Uni friends if they know anything about this.




I was on Simpsons on 10/26 and all was operative then.

But look at Disney ... Everest, the new 'signature' attraction at DAK runs with most of its effects inoperable (something that back in the 1980s and 90s would have had the ride shut down until things were fixed!) ... the highlight of the Nemo clam ride's angler fish hasn't worked in months ... the Davy Jones effect hasn't been working most of the time on PoC.

So ... I'm not looking to complain about the competition. I'm looking for Disney to get its damn act together. For $79 a day, these things should all be running in 100% show quality. Period. No excuses.

Awwwww.... Look! He's learned how to use the multi-quote function! That should make some people happy.

:lol:

 

[JWG]

There's a great big beautiful tomorrow....

...No? Too soon?...

 

[WDW1974]

Nope. The average guest doesn't care. And that's Disney's bread and butter. Not the people on this message board.

This is a basic fallacy and it's not just you ... this is what the MBAs, consultants and managers spew forth at TDO.

It's just not true.

The average guests who aren't Disney nuts, but visit once in five years for a nice family vacation ... well, they do notice. Talk to people staying at a Disney resort by the pool or in the jacuzzi or at the bar or on a monorail or bus ... you hear people saying things that should scare the pooh out of any Disney exec because people see that the magic isn't quite what it once was. And they're the ones who won't return and drop another $8,000 on a magical WDW vacation.

They don't need to worry about people here. Most will go no matter what.

I was one of the first 3,000 people to ever own a WDW AP ... do you think I'm going to give it up? I may go less (which I do) and I may vent more on sites like this (which I do) and I may spend far less there (which I definitely have been doing) but they've got me.

I've had too many great times at WDW and can still have a wonderful time at places like DAK and EPCOT to not go back.

It's the regular Joe and Jane Average that they need to be concerned about. They're the ones who notice the nickel and diming, the cutbacks, and the lack of magic.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

\
So ... I'm not looking to complain about the competition. I'm looking for Disney to get its damn act together. For $79 a day, these things should all be running in 100% show quality. Period. No excuses.

I don't agree with you about all of the closures, cut backs and all that jazz. I am pretty certain WDI has a few products in production. HOWEVER...I DO agree with this. Where the heck is all our money going? Not to the CM's. Not to the attractions. 79$ is robbery IMHO.


Not that I won't be stolen from...I love EPCOT.:lookaroun