Slash and Burn ...

[DisneyMusician2]

I have read that when the company takes in profits, they are not linked to one resort and can be applied to any part of the company. The DLR 50th budget didn't come from just DLR admissions, there is no way they could have pulled together such a large budget so quickly.

And what of the capital to build other resorts? It must come from resort areas of the company.

 

[DisneyDellsDude]

Yep Everest has been in a very poor state for way way to long now. I'm not quite sure how WDW can let this one go on for as long as they have becaues it's getting embarassing. For a signature attraction to be missing such major elements is just not good enough.

I thought I read a rumor that E:E would be going down for a refurb soon in the fairly near future. Anyone know anything more?

 

[Brian Noble]

History has shown that TWDC is just as good at running itself into near failure pursuing "the best" with no eye towards the financial reality as it is when ignoring the standards that made it great, only worrying about the bottom line.

The trick is finding the middle ground that acknowleges that reality (and bill collectors) exist, yet finds a way to deliver the best experience possible in that reality.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

History has shown that TWDC is just as good at running itself into near failure pursuing "the best" with no eye towards the financial reality as it is when ignoring the standards that made it great, only worrying about the bottom line.

The trick is finding the middle ground that acknowleges that reality (and bill collectors) exist, yet finds a way to deliver the best experience possible in that reality.

Walt was certainly good enough at this for several major corporations. It got to the point where banks wouldn't loan to him anymore.

Has anyone considered that maybe WDW has been spending beyond their means for too long and now they are recouping from that?

Most things in life are cyclical. I truly believe WDW will be as well. Maybe not tomorrow or in two years, but maybe by the time my son is old enough to remember his trip there.

 

[jedimaster1227]

But I'll put my knowledge and connections up against anyone's here.

I don't think anyone here is trying to win in a battle of connections and knowledge... Rather, people are presenting their cases, opinions and what information they seem to have. Nothing regarding the company is fact unless there is physical proof to back it up, whether it be company acknowledgement or some sort of documentation. Without that, we will still be discussing rumors served with a plate full of salt.

"So, what now? Are we to be two immortals locked in epic battle until judgment day...?"

Hmmm, Hard Rock Park and Cypress Gardens are the only two that come to mind. HRP had a terrible plan from the get go, you knew that park was going to fail before it even got off the ground. And Cypress.....please, that park has been on the brink for years. Those are two bad choices to back your argument up. You're better that that. :animwink:

I'm sorry about that one... Those are always the first two that come to mind since I'm not privy to some of the older parks like Myrtle Beach Pavilion and others that have failed. I especially didn't want to touch on Celebration City because frankly, that whole situation confuses me...

Ok, Adam...help me out with this. (I have yet to get a good answer from anyone involved.)

Let's take that statement above and apply it to Space Mountain. I am fairly sure that it's budget was approved quite some time ago, and not a small budget. I'm talking the "close for a year or more and do it right" budget.
Now...not so much. From your perspective, did that budget cut happen as a result of the economy, or is it due more to the other factors I have heard of?
Just looking for some insight....
:wave:

Lee, I know what you've been hearing and unfortunately, the cuts are definitely a result of the "other factors" and not the economy. What I have been told more recently that the simple updates not included in this refurb will be progressively add, a la Spaceship Earth. PM me if you want to discuss it in a more secure outlet! :animwink:

You can always use that line because Disney is always planning. The vast majority of what is planned never gets built. That's why Disney geeks get wonderful coffee table books of artwork for all the amazing things that got the budget ax or weren't realistic for other reasons.

I'm not aware of the lighting in Dinoland that you're talking of. I do know the park was built with an a nice system that never got used much because the park almost never was open past dusk. I know more lighting was added for Everest and in anticipation of Rivers of Light.

This lighting package was installed long after Rivers of Light was axxed. This test is for something more grand and far more profitable.

The problem is -- and a point that you and others keep missing/ignoring -- that so much that you are quick to term 'unnecessary' has been cut since the mid-1990s that there isn't simply anything left. So many of the Disney Details ... what truly set Disney apart ... simply were budgeted away in better periods due to a model for unsustainable continued return on investment.

Those lost "Disney Details" haven't negatively affected attendance, and therefore cannot be missed by those who never saw them (or the quality on which they were framed). Like I said before, I am a purist and in all of my concept attraction designs that I have developed for the potential day when I could be hired by WDI, I have wrapped each wall in theme and those "Disney Details." While it may be ideal to spend money on a wall guests won't see unless they take the effort to turn around, that just isn't the way it goes anymore. While it isn't as immersive as it could have been, the experience isn't lost just because of a few missing details that the majority of guests (specifically first time guests) won't see.

Again, being 17, you may not even be aware of them let alone experienced them. Not a putdown, a statement of fact.

I grew up on classic immersive attractions like Horizons, Journey into Imagination, World of Motion and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, so my exposure to such detail is real. As I have said before, my age shouldn't be an issue regardless, because if you can tell from my posts on this thread as well as others on the forum, I don't speak much about what I'm not sure of. Nor do I speak of things I have not experienced--personally, I find that quite pointless in the scheme of things unless it applies to the future or my interests in such. I realize you meant to complement, but I'm pretty sure that we can move past my age for a second to continue the discussion.

I also have stated in other discussions here that if Disney feels the need to close a park or two a day or two a week that, while unpleasant, it is far better than just keep slashing quality and nickel and diming guests.

While I won't bet my life on it, I'm almost certain that you are in the minority here. People panic when a park loses an hour on a weekday of operation--how do you think they'll react when parks go dark completely? Loss of quality compared to loss of an entire park? I'm pretty sure there isn't really a comparison. :shrug:

I'm asking you to look at the larger picture. I see it quite clearly. I talk to friends at WDI who are about to lose jobs. I talk to friends who used to work at the company. I work in the media/PR business in the real world. I have some clue what I am talking about.

While I won't play the whole "my sources include" game, I will tell you that my involvement in this discussion is based solely on the information I know from my relations within the company. While you may work in the business, that doesn't count anyone else for doing the same. I think its a little early to judge someone's credibility based once more on their age or what information you can find about them on the internet. While I have no doubt that you know people, I merely offered my response to the information you supplied in the original post.

The one thing that surprises me (especially after you referred to me as a potential Disney "hack" in the making) is the blatent negativity (and honestly, that is going on what I have seen in all of your posts) regarding the "news" you have provided. Based on my experience interning and studying Public Relations, PR workers are meant to put a positive spin on almost everything, and yet, I've seen nothing comforting in any of your posts. Public Relations is meant to calmly inform the general public, yet you started a thread titled with scorn and distaste for two individuals, only afterwards following up with one of the most alarmingly negative posts I've seen on this forum since I joined nearly four years ago. Not really a PR friendly introduction... :shrug:

My post wasn't meant to do anything but inform, first of all.

Okay... But then what was your purpose of posting this in the News and Rumors section of the forum if you did not seek to bring news to the forum? Wouldn't this have been better suited in the General Discussion forum if you didn't mean to introduce any new information to the public? I'm not sure why someone would lay their cards on the table without the intent of showing his hand.

And stockholders, the ones of significance, aren't reading Disney fan site discussion boards to decide whether or not to hold onto their stock. They're watching the market, talking to their brokers and watching the analysts on MSNBC.

And most of them are satisfied with the operation of the company as a whole (not many of them take the time to pick apart one division when deciding the value of their shares). As a lifelong stockholder, I can assure you that I understand more about this market than you give me credit for.

No one knows the full story except perhaps Bob Iger. But I do know how the company is structured and run. Jay Rasulo runs the parks and resorts. Tom Staggs runs all the numbers for the entire company. Those aren't 'administrative' positions. Those are power positions. And I'll place the blame where it is richly deserve. I understand how these folks' short-term decisions have been negatively impacting Disney guests, cast, shareholders ... and yeah, geeks too.

Again, I wonder why you call out the "geeks" and "fanboys" in a place where they harbor in abundance. I'll admit that I could be called a fanboy for my various levels of interaction with the company, as well as for my goals to for the company someday soon, but just because I am a fanboy (or anyone else for that matter) does not mean that my view isn't balanced out with credible information collected from up to date, printed analytical statistics as well as information from the people that do understand this industry far better than I could on my own. You are in a place where we "fanboys" are in abundance, but I doubt you will find too many other places where so many are informed to the point where they can support a level discussion such as this (I can only name four communities including WDWMagic where this is true).

So, you think that's a justification for shuttering those locations?
I bet Journey 3.0 would make more money if you added pole dancers and a bar, but that's really not what Disney is supposed to be.

What it is supposed to be and what it is are two different things. One of the facts that some people seem to forget is that Disney is a business, first and foremost. Everything else comes second. Odyssey, Wonders of Life (now the Festival Center) and the World Showplace (formerly the Millenium Village) all support the parks with the amount of convention groups they bring in, without hindering the park in any way. Wonders of Life was empty long before it was closed for good, and it is hard to judge Odyssey as a full service restaurant venue, considering it has been such for quite some time.

Hindered the park? How did it hinder the park? I'm curious since you were what minus-6 when they closed it? FWIW, it was always intended as a minor attraction and was a nice diversion. I actually rode it a few times.

Long lines, mechanical tow line issues and guests attempting to go for a swim were among the many problems that surrounded the ill-fated attraction. While it was intended as a minor attraction, it had the lines of a major attraction, garnering much negative feedback to Disney, and in addition to the other factors playing against it, ultimately leading to its closure and removal. The negatives outweighed the positives 2 to 1.

Feels kinda petty to me... People giving him a hard time for calling someone 17 young? That's a total spin on what he said. He was COMPLIMENTING jedi. That wasn't hard to see.

Trust me when I say that I recognized the complement, and I appreciate the sentiment.

Thanks jedimaster for taking the time you do to respond in a detailed manner. I can tell you are busy but still invest time here informing us of what is going on.

The stuff you write rings absolutely true to me as opposed to what wdw74 writes which seems to ALWAYS be slanted to the negative.

This is the only location I feel comfortable speaking about what I do, and I enjoy doing it, so it is my pleasure! I respect people like Kevin Yee (I consider him a personal friend) and others that look at the negative, but my goal as someone hoping to work either in management or WDI in the near future is to target the positive and reinforce it--not belittle it with focus on the negatives. My mentality has always been to fix the negatives and highlight the positives, not the other way around.

In fact, I just recorded a podcast episode for a friends show to talk about the economy and the market--funny enough, much of what I have posted here has been mirrored in my segment! :lol:

I don't see how the club in it's current layout could ever work as a dining venue. However, I do see how they could add on to the club by connecting it to the BET Club, and have both dining and entertainment options. I would be perfectly happy with this as long as the spirit of the club could exist, and most likely more satisfied with the newer version because the AC deserved a restaurant and shop. Is this similar to the concept you were refering to?

While no plans are anywhere near definite, I have heard of at least two plans to make this work. One room could be lost to become a kitchen area or like you said, BET may be connected to expand the space heavily, but if that happens, not all of BET would be used for the new venue--rather a shopping venue attached to the dining concept (much like Raglan Road and its shop or Rainforest Cafe and its retail area).

 

[WDW1974]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but my age doesn't really seem to be of importance here... As for referring to me as a potential PR "hack," I have to say that your belief in their active interaction in these communities are minimal, if not nonexistant.

Actually, your age is of importance only so much as you're touting information like an 'insider' and you're trying to discredit the information of others who DO have both knowledge and the experience to put things in some realistic perspective. I try not to hold someone's age up to discredit them, but rather to point out why there can be obvious gaps in knowledge and understanding. When someone like me tries to explain a WDW with only one or two parks it must sound like a different planet to many younger people.

Anyway, much of what you likely have read about WDW and Disney, I and many others here, have lived ... and that experience and perspective is priceless. When you have it, you'll realize it.

And I never stated anything about PR hacks interaction in communities like this one, so that's a bit out of left field. But Disney does pay attention to what is said about the company both officially and unofficially. Do you know Phil 'Magic Man' Holmes has been spied reading stuff penned by yours truly? Magical ...:wave:

And I apologize in advance for the way this post may read, but I find quoting on here very difficult for an old geezer like myself.


Quote:
Considering many of the deals for the additional restaurants and shopping venues for P.I. 2.0 have fallen through, nothing is definite yet. Surveyors have been seriously looking at retaining much of the former club to become a dining venue.

I will say that AC could open as a dining facility, sure. Anything along those lines is possible. But reopening the club as a club will NOT happen. People need to get a grip on this one.


Except the competition, which is in rougher shape than Disney. They're investing over a billion in Orlando over the 2008-2010 timeframe. The competition greenlit those projects at least a year ago, if not earlier. Like I said before, the projects that were already in the development/preparation pipeline for Disney will happen due to the amount of work that has already gone into their development.

This is simply not true, unless you mean at any given point down the line. I had a very disheartening call with a friend at WDI, someone who may well be out of a job in January.

And while I was able to confirm that HoP and Space Mountain redos will proceed as scheduled in 2009, NO NEW attractions at any WDW parks will be worked on for an INDEFINITE period.

Disney put a huge amount of money into development for the Monsters coaster with the intent to open it in 2010-11. The building was even cleared out and some small scale prep started. And now? ... all that $$$ is down the drain because that coaster isn't getting built for years if at all now.

Mermaid for the MK was largely developed with DCA funds, but it also is indefinitely on hold or more.

Thos are just two of the big projects where millions have been spent (thrown away?) and they aren't going to get built in the near future or at all.

So your point is just not true. There are NO new attractions coming to WDW. Everything is on hold. People are going to lose jobs.

I'm not sure who you know at Disney, although clearly you do know someone, but the information isn't what is happening behind the scenes.

FWIW, I wish so much you were right here. I so do because it would mean new, quality reasons to visit WDW.


Universal and Seaworld are in the same boat. Universal greenlit Rip, Ride, Rockit, the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, the Simpsons, Disaster and several additional projects on the way long before the recession hit the point that it did, leading Disney to make proactive movements to protect itself.

Disney's moves are reactive and not proactive. Folks are running around TDO like chickens looking for heads. The only proactive moves being made at Disney are to protect the bottom lines and bonuses of the 'leadership' team ... there is no vision whatsoever. Again, it's slash and burn and damn the consequences.




Again, the smart business, the one looking to be in good shape when things get better (and they will ... eventually) knows it needs to have something to offer to entice people to come back ... and maybe get them there now. "Smart" is an extremely subjective concept. Your claim of what a smart business is seems to be based more on opinion than on fact. Again, when looking at the bigger picture, including the operational costs and other numbers that management has crunched, the decisions made are done so that the larger, more visible actions are not needed. If you had to choose between the seasonal closure of a few attractions and the cutting of a few additional effects or observances when compared to the decision to shut down parks on staggered schedule en mass, the choice is quite clear. Disney has taken the high road by cutting costs for the less visible.

Is it my opinion that Disney is running their parks the wrong way (into the ground in WDW's case)? Yes. You seem to be of the belief that Disney's choices here came down to either making all of these 'small' cutbacks or shuttering a park a day or two a week. That's not true. And the sad thing is that according to those folks I know on the inside, those closings could yet happen anyway.

As to things being subjective, sure. But guess what? There are more than one way to run a business in a tough time. WDW is choosing the easiest ... cut quality, cut cast, raise prices (while tossing out desperation discounts), add nothing of substance to attract visitors. You choose to support WDW management. I don't. I understand how inept many of these folks are ... I understand what damage these people have done in good times. You want to give them the benefit of the doubt?

Go right ahead, but one day when you're older you'll wake up and realize that just because someone is a theme park executive for TWDC it doesn't make them a genius, it doesn't even make them smarter than a fanboy on a Disney website.




Labor, materials and construction are all at lows. That's why you spend now (saving money in the short term) while adding value in the long term. Again, if you have no surplus from which to borrow, it doesn't matter the prices for such aspects are low--if you can't break even, then recovery will be more difficult. Excess damages from excess borrowing will mean that once the economy recovers, the resorts will hit an even slower period during which they must be even more conservative to recover from the damages made in spending money that wasn't there. Instead, Disney has worked to break even, making their rate of recovery far stronger--allowing for major developments to resume once the economy picks up.

At this rate, Disney will be so far behind when the economy picks up it may not matter. I get the feeling you're a glass more than half full of pixie dust kind of kid. So you likely (please correct me if I am wrong) don't see anything wrong with WDW today. You don't see the WalMarted product ... the stale, tired offerings being passed off year after year as magical. For those of us with more experience and perspective, we realize that WDW has been on a downward spiral since its 25th anniversary in terms of quality for the money. Those of us who thought the MK was getting stale years ago don't want to wait until 2019 to get a new major attraction. Those of us who have watched Epcot degenerate into a mess of things, still recall the grandeur and awe the park inspired in the 80s and 90s.


Do you really want to see the same tired, stale MK offerings in 2012 that you see now? because that's how things are stacking up ... It has never been a question of want... What fans want and what the company needs are two very different things. Some parks endure up to 30 years without new attractions, but are still able to survive by breaking even (take Marineland for example). The company has acted based on necessity, rather than want. If the company consistently acted on want rather than need, they would have been bought up far sooner than Hard Rock Park in its single year. Progressive business calls for progressive development, especially in times of economic strife. It isn't 2005 anymore, and the company isn't willing to spend the capital to expand their parks like they did during the Happiest Celebration on Earth. Though it may be disappointing from a fan's perspective, this is a business wise decision.


You can't realistically compare Disney to things like the Hard Rock Park or Cypress Gardens or Marineland. It's like comparing apples to BBQ beans because they're both edible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelazer
Maybe instead of cutting park hours and resots and staff. Disney should start with cutting prices. To break even and still have money to keep the parks running at Disney quality, they are unable to lower prices. Trust me when I say that if Disney could lower prices (it would, in fact make the resorts appeal to more guests), they would. But, between operating costs, maintenance and upkeep charges as well as the addition of special events costs (like the Flower and Garden Festival, Star Wars Weekends and such), they are unable to break even without increased costs.

I just would say that the biggest issue many of us oldtimers have is the fact Disney no longer maintains its parks to Disney standards, while the prices are constantly going up. Since Disney began the Walmarting about the time you were potty-trained, you grew up with it. You (sadly) expect less from WDW and The Mouse is only willing to give you it.

 

[WDW1974]

Wow. I go away for a few days and look at all the fun I've missed.

I'm not sure why all the hate is flying toward WDW1974. It's really puzzling me. And it's not my job to defend him, he can do just fine on his own...

No, please go right ahead ... after a while it gets tiresome.

Are (some) people here clueless? Does anyone think I want to report bad news?

I want to come here and tell you all about amazing new stuff WDW is adding and assorted other kewl tidbits about The Mouse.

But the reality is about the only thing that sucks more than the economy right now is the group of individuals charged with guiding WDW through these troubling times.

And they really don't need fanboy spinning for them (although I'm sure it makes them all warm and tingling!) :drevil:

I'm just not understanding why quite a few people that are normally pretty objective and level-headed are flying off the handle and making some pretty rough comments in his direction. Knocking him for not using multi-quote function (which I myself hadn't come across till recently)?

I just tried to use that damn thing and wound up losing a 20-minute post I wrote to young jedi (Adam?)

One thing I must say about LP.com's boards are they much more user friendly for simple discussions ... no links, no avatars, no smileys, no lists of past and future stays or pics of your kitties named for Disney princesses... nothing but conversation, discussion and debate.

Feels kinda petty to me... People giving him a hard time for calling someone 17 young? That's a total spin on what he said. He was COMPLIMENTING jedi. That wasn't hard to see.

I don't see how anyone could interpret it differently. The young man impressed me. He still does. I don't agree with his conclusions at all and some of his info isn't great but overall, he comes off as someone very intelligent and articulate. I had never really read anything by him before this thread, so I had no clue of his age until last night.

Being offended by someone saying they're as confident of their connections and sources of information as anyone here could be? Why is that an issue? If I had an inside view and wanted to talk about that view with fellow Disney Park fans, I wouldn't have a problem telling people I felt confident of my sources. Lee and Corrus and Martin have all made comments about having inside info, and no one has ever jumped THEM (for good reason, I might add).

Well, Lee and Martin have a much less in-your-face style than I do, that I readily admit. But I like to cut through the BS quickly because I don't have time to live on Disney fan sites. I don't know much about Corrus as he really hasn't been here when I have, but I see he has a good friend now posting ... some Tim character.

It's obvious we're not dealing with ReDisneyE-Dew or whatever the heck his name was. That guy made all KINDS of stuff up, yet MANY on this board were waiting for his next posts with baited breath, totally on board that he was legit. Whole threads were started saying "when's he gonna post again!! WOO HOO!" Because he was spitting out stuff that people wanted to hear. Now here's someone with a clear track record here and on other sites who's providing a viewpoint that doesn't seem to popular with some, so here come the claws. I don't get it.

I do.

It's simple. When people love something like WDW they tend to take criticism leveled at it personally. I was once like that ... but I was much younger and the criticism was more of 'why do you want to spend that much time at an amusement park? or isn't Disney just for kids?' kind of stuff ... guess what? I still love WDW or I wouldn't be so pis$ed off at the way it is being run. And I hate that so many people (young and people who just didn't visit before the late 90s) have been conditioned to believe that so much crap is really Disney ...it isn't.

Which leads to your next -- and great -- point ...

WDW AS A WHOLE HAS LOST FOCUS. Shuttered attractions, very little proactive actions, rising prices all around, scaled back refurbs, fewer dining options, and attention to detail falling by the wayside, just to name a few. Can anyone argue against that??? Can anyone back up the path our beloved WDW has been on for the past handful of years?? Especially when compared to any of the other Disney resorts around the world??

How can anyone so quickly dismiss everything he's saying as fanboy related vitriol when it's ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS?!?!?!?

It's felt, for quite some time now, that WDW has been working towards making their guests "okay" with removal of little details here and there. They've been conditioning us. Like when the gas companies would raise gas to $3 a gallon, then drop it back to $2.50 and everyone would be happy, even though it started the year at $2. The same thing is happening here with Disney Parks. And everyone that is saying they're okay with Disney cutting details here and there that you KNOW won't return because most people don't notice those details anyway, well... I feel like they've got ya right where they want ya. They've done their job with you.[/quote]

So many great points above really!

It's all about conditioning. It it is an insidious thing. Largely since around 1996 Disney has been about giving the guest less (quality) and charging higher prices. Every year it's another old detail that gets cut ... just a small thing ... one here, one there ... but over time it all adds up to a MUCH LESSER WDW for all. But what if your first visit was in 1997 ... or 2001 ... or 2004? What if you were there in 1987, but you were 6 and you didn't go back until 2000? For so many, WDW is what their first few experiences were ... and if they never visited in its first 25 years, they have no clue what they were missing (unless they visit other Disney resorts regularly!)

People need to get that through their heads. When Disney cuts, it doesn't give back. So now the excuse is the awful economy. But there's always some reason to do what they do ... and it always takes a little more of WDW's heart with it.

I won't sit back and say they're running the place the right way. They aren't.

And it just keeps getting worse.

 

[WDW1974]

Yep Everest has been in a very poor state for way way to long now. I'm not quite sure how WDW can let this one go on for as long as they have becaues it's getting embarassing. For a signature attraction to be missing such major elements is just not good enough.

It is embarrassing, Steve.

The only time virtually all effects were operational was for the media opening ... although sometimes in previews it was pretty close.

But the yeti, which cost a fortune, has been inoperable for how many months now?

It's a joke ... just not a funny one.

And rest assured Val Bunting, Erin Wallace and Meg Crofton aren't hearing about it because no one in O-Town cares.

Again, if this were Anaheim, it would be all over Al Lutz's blog and in the LA Times and OC Register and it would get fixed.

Of course, in Anaheim there are still CMs who take pride in the place and wouldn't let it go to begin with.

It's just bad all over.

 

[WDW1974]

See, here's the PERFECT example of what we're talking about, in real time.

See this thread:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=383250

Here's the basic plot line, in summation:

"Hey, didn't Disney used to have character shaped topiaries all over the place?"

"yep, they did. Got rid of them as a cost cutting measure."

"Ah. Well shoot. Those were kinda neat, and I thought they really added to the magic."

"Yeah, they did. But they're pretty much gone now. You can still find a picture of them though, if you search the internets!"

And the thing is... These kinds of conversations have to be taking place, ALL THE TIME, and EVERYWHERE. Online, in the parks, at the resorts, on the busses, at the airport.

If that's not a "real time", perfect example of the homoginization (is that a word?) of WDW... Then I don't know what is.

Say what you want about Yee... But he's right. The little slashes and cuts and changes around the parks are steady and very scary.

Perfect example.

I hope some folks here actually read it and understand it because it's part and parcel of the homogenizing (yeah, it's a word) and Walmarting that takes place at WDW now.

You take away things detail by detail ... eventually what do you have? I dunno, but you don't have Walt Disney World ... not the place I grew up at and loved.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

I could agree more EpcotServo...But, I'm taking it to another angle with Kyon.....:lol:

 

[haveyoumetmark]

This is an eye-opening thread, to say the least.

 

[pheneix]

Good times... The only point made here that I wish to touch on is that using "they were planning all of these additions before the reccession!" as an excuse for Sea World and Universal's new additions is a pretty lame to marginalize what will be amazing additions to their properties. Why or when they are planned has nothing to do with the outcome. Sea World and Universal have great additions on the way that will expand their business for years to come. Disney has another parade and a stage show based on a washed up FOX reality show.

It should also be stated that the competition seems to be weather the reccession a bit better than Disney. Universal's business is down some but not a lot, and it will most certainly spike with RockIt next year. BEC is having a RECORD year. Their new water park will be the #1 attended water park in the world in its first year of operation (in a reccession to boot!). Six Flags is having a great year too. There are good businesses that are finding ways to grow in this tough environment. Then there are the not so good business. The Circuit Citys, K-Marts, and Sharper Images of the world that will no longer be with us next year. None of the above examples did themselves in overnight. It was a long, slow decline that lead up to it. Walt Disney World is on this path.

 

[chaggy102]

Where is the popcorn eatting emotion when I need it.

 

[WDW1974]

Those lost "Disney Details" haven't negatively affected attendance, and therefore cannot be missed by those who never saw them (or the quality on which they were framed). Like I said before, I am a purist and in all of my concept attraction designs that I have developed for the potential day when I could be hired by WDI, I have wrapped each wall in theme and those "Disney Details." While it may be ideal to spend money on a wall guests won't see unless they take the effort to turn around, that just isn't the way it goes anymore. While it isn't as immersive as it could have been, the experience isn't lost just because of a few missing details that the majority of guests (specifically first time guests) won't see.

I want you to reread what your first sentence is ... over and over and over and over. Let it sink in.

I'm not surprised you want to work for The Mouse. Honestly, since you seem to have your head screwed on right, I'd strongly advise you run as far away from working for Disney as you can (and no, I have NEVER been an employee of TWDC!) You can't work for that company and still love it ... just doesn't work that way. Also, be wary of any single male Imagineer who offers to take you under his wing and help guide you into a position with WDI while you go to school... please trust me on this one.

As to your statement, if you really appreciate Disney and understand the design principals that have guided the building and development of its parks, resorts and hotels, you'll know how important the details are ... in short, they're everything. And they're crucial even if they're in a tiny corner of a darkened queue that 98% of people will walk by and not even glance at.

If you're the 'purist' you claim, then you know the dangers inherent in simply leaving them out. Cut a bit here, a bit there. Who will notice, right?
Wrong. Because when you leave enough details out you wind up with billion dollar messes like DCA, DSP and HKDL ... and when you forget about them and start watering things down you get parks with no identity like The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios.

Disney is all about immersion. That's why The Living Seas was so much more successful than The Seas With Nemo. That's why folks stand in line hours for things like Splash Mountain or PoC or Mansion, but walk by things like SGE or MILF or Imagination 3.0.

You can't cut the details because my friend, the details are exactly what set Disney apart from everyone else.

I grew up on classic immersive attractions like Horizons, Journey into Imagination, World of Motion and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, so my exposure to such detail is real.

Well, you had me until Toad ... but the others were all wonderful and I miss them greatly. They were replaced by things that weren't improvements and that what galls me most of all.

As I have said before, my age shouldn't be an issue regardless, because if you can tell from my posts on this thread as well as others on the forum, I don't speak much about what I'm not sure of. Nor do I speak of things I have not experienced--personally, I find that quite pointless in the scheme of things unless it applies to the future or my interests in such. I realize you meant to complement, but I'm pretty sure that we can move past my age for a second to continue the discussion.

Your age will always be a factor in life. It is no matter whether you are 7, 17, 37, 57, 77 etc ... doesn't matter. I only mentioned your age because it does affect your perspective on things. It isn't a bad thing to be 17 at all ... although I enjoyed 19 and 20 much more myself!

While I won't bet my life on it, I'm almost certain that you are in the minority here. People panic when a park loses an hour on a weekday of operation--how do you think they'll react when parks go dark completely? Loss of quality compared to loss of an entire park? I'm pretty sure there isn't really a comparison. :shrug:

Doesn't matter ... anyone who panics over theme parks hours/closures needs to have more of a grounded existence.

FWIW, Disney is seriously contemplating doing so just as it did after 9/11. Hopefully, it won't come to that. But I'd much rather see DAK closed on Mondays and Studios on Tuesdays if it meant new projects were taken off PAUSE!

While I won't play the whole "my sources include" game, I will tell you that my involvement in this discussion is based solely on the information I know from my relations within the company. While you may work in the business, that doesn't count anyone else for doing the same. I think its a little early to judge someone's credibility based once more on their age or what information you can find about them on the internet. While I have no doubt that you know people, I merely offered my response to the information you supplied in the original post.

I will judge your credibility based largely on what you say and how you do so. The age factor will only come into play in areas in which I know you don't have the experience. I have dealt with Disney execs in real world work situations, so I have some idea how they operate. I got to even know Michael Eisner, so I have some perspective on him that I doubt anyone else here does. All of that I believe adds to my credibility. There are reasons I have access to information, after all, and it isn't all my charm, personality and good looks (not that any of that hurts!) :lol:

The one thing that surprises me (especially after you referred to me as a potential Disney "hack" in the making) is the blatent negativity (and honestly, that is going on what I have seen in all of your posts) regarding the "news" you have provided. Based on my experience interning and studying Public Relations, PR workers are meant to put a positive spin on almost everything, and yet, I've seen nothing comforting in any of your posts. Public Relations is meant to calmly inform the general public, yet you started a thread titled with scorn and distaste for two individuals, only afterwards following up with one of the most alarmingly negative posts I've seen on this forum since I joined nearly four years ago. Not really a PR friendly introduction... :shrug:

I wasn't making an introduction to this forum. I have been posting here off and on since early in 2008. I've long been a regular on Laughing Place.com and Micechat as well. Hell, I even have 'friends' at Disney who enjoy reading me! Hi guys!:wave:

And you're 100% correct about PR workers. But I am not working here ... I am telling it like it is (or will be, sadly) and am not putting any corporate spin on this.

If I worked for Disney then my words would likely frame the Mouse in a much more positive light, doncha think?

I do have scorn and disdain for Jay and Tom, as do most people who work under them, and I have no desire to make them look anything different than what they are -- two people interested in only the bottom line (mostly their own) -- with little or no regard for their guests, cast or the long term brand degridation their slash and burn mentality is causing.

FYI, the slash and burn is not just WDW/WDI ... Staggs recently submitted a proposal to Iger for a massive bloodletting at ABC. Again, something that wouldn't be needed if someone actually sat back and thought and didn't panic that the sky is falling (even if it kinda is!)

Okay... But then what was your purpose of posting this in the News and Rumors section of the forum if you did not seek to bring news to the forum? Wouldn't this have been better suited in the General Discussion forum if you didn't mean to introduce any new information to the public? I'm not sure why someone would lay their cards on the table without the intent of showing his hand.

I placed it in News and Rumors because that's where it belonged. As far as I can tell, no on else here has reported that all NEW projects at WDW are on indefinite hold ... and that most certainly is news I think fans have a right to know.

And most of them are satisfied with the operation of the company as a whole (not many of them take the time to pick apart one division when deciding the value of their shares). As a lifelong stockholder, I can assure you that I understand more about this market than you give me credit for.

And as someone whose family has been intimately involved in major entertainment/media since Hollywood started making movies, rest assured I can give you more insight into how these Dream Factories are run then most anybody you'll find on an online Disney fan site!

Again, I wonder why you call out the "geeks" and "fanboys" in a place where they harbor in abundance. I'll admit that I could be called a fanboy for my various levels of interaction with the company, as well as for my goals to for the company someday soon, but just because I am a fanboy (or anyone else for that matter) does not mean that my view isn't balanced out with credible information collected from up to date, printed analytical statistics as well as information from the people that do understand this industry far better than I could on my own. You are in a place where we "fanboys" are in abundance, but I doubt you will find too many other places where so many are informed to the point where they can support a level discussion such as this (I can only name four communities including WDWMagic where this is true).

I don't mean fanboy in a negative manner ... but it is what it is ... fanboys start rumors about monorails going thru the Swan ... or bemoan that Horizons can't move to Tomorrowland ... or talk ad nasuem about tiny changes in SSE's descent tunnel.

Most aren't really up on anything above whatever resort/park/attractions etc ... that are their faves.

They don't necessarily get why things happen at WDW and how it fits into Disney's world-wide media empire.

I realize that might sound like a putdown, but it isn't. Not everyone is here for the same reason(s). That's great. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

What it is supposed to be and what it is are two different things. One of the facts that some people seem to forget is that Disney is a business, first and foremost. Everything else comes second. Odyssey, Wonders of Life (now the Festival Center) and the World Showplace (formerly the Millenium Village) all support the parks with the amount of convention groups they bring in, without hindering the park in any way. Wonders of Life was empty long before it was closed for good, and it is hard to judge Odyssey as a full service restaurant venue, considering it has been such for quite some time.

You do sound so ready for a WDW Press and Publicity job. Do you know Rick Sylvain? I could put in a word for you. What about good old Gary Buchanan?

Guess what EPCOT wasn't built as a convention center. Look at all the facilities at the Epcot Resorts. Plus you have the old, ugly Millennium Village/World Showplace. ... Sorry, but you don't take a $150 million pavilion complex with three attractions, three exhibits/minor attractions, snack bar and retail and give it away for conventions. That's just BS. The same with Odyssey. It is a perfect locale for a dining facility. It used to do quite a big business too. But once Convention Services got their hands on it, it was gone for good. I know Jim MacPhee wants WoL repurposed with new attractions, but that facility was so low on the priority list before the economy collapsed. One would wonder how long it will just sit there now ...

Long lines, mechanical tow line issues and guests attempting to go for a swim were among the many problems that surrounded the ill-fated attraction. While it was intended as a minor attraction, it had the lines of a major attraction, garnering much negative feedback to Disney, and in addition to the other factors playing against it, ultimately leading to its closure and removal. The negatives outweighed the positives 2 to 1.

Guest stupidity wasn't why Swan boats closed. If so, there wouldn't be one attraction open at any park. It didn't get much negative feedback either, not sure where you heard that. It wasn't that exciting, but it wasn't meant to be ... and it operated in an era where it was expected you'd get attractions like that at WDW. As for lines, I can't recall ever waiting much more than 20 minutes to ride but it wasn't open all that frequently.

Trust me when I say that I recognized the complement, and I appreciate the sentiment.

Good.

This is the only location I feel comfortable speaking about what I do, and I enjoy doing it, so it is my pleasure! I respect people like Kevin Yee (I consider him a personal friend) and others that look at the negative, but my goal as someone hoping to work either in management or WDI in the near future is to target the positive and reinforce it--not belittle it with focus on the negatives. My mentality has always been to fix the negatives and highlight the positives, not the other way around.

That's fine. I'm over twice your age. I don't think I'll be around as long as you and I don't believe I can change the world anymore, but it's always good to see that 'tude in young people. You have the rest of your life to become bitter and disenchanted and you will! I'd just like some more E-tickets before I hit middle age ... you know the little things in life

But I wish you well in whatever you want to do ... seriously!

I just think with your obvious smarts you can do far better than Disney. Again, seriously!

 

[GenerationX]

See, here's the PERFECT example of what we're talking about, in real time.

See this thread:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=383250

Here's the basic plot line, in summation:

"Hey, didn't Disney used to have character shaped topiaries all over the place?"

"yep, they did. Got rid of them as a cost cutting measure."

"Ah. Well shoot. Those were kinda neat, and I thought they really added to the magic."

"Yeah, they did. But they're pretty much gone now. You can still find a picture of them though, if you search the internets!"

And the thing is... These kinds of conversations have to be taking place, ALL THE TIME, and EVERYWHERE. Online, in the parks, at the resorts, on the busses, at the airport.

If that's not a "real time", perfect example of the homoginization (is that a word?) of WDW... Then I don't know what is.

Say what you want about Yee... But he's right. The little slashes and cuts and changes around the parks are steady and very scary.

These types of conversations do not have to be taking place everywhere. As the resident Disney freak in my family, neighborhood, office, etc., I have many, many Disney-related discussions with the non-obsessed. They truly don't notice and couldn't care less about the little changes being discussed here. They don't whine about topiaries or torch lighting ceremonies. They could give a rats whether CoP is open or not, and they don't notice when an effect doesn't work. They appreciate the overall entertainment package. They laud the cleanliness, the attention to detail, and the customer service orientation of the CMs (of course, they don't refer to them as CMs, because they're not obsessive Disney junkies like us).

They're not going to change their vacation plans because HoP has gone seasonal. They don't care. And there are enough of them to influence how Disney decides where to invest/cut.

 

[Lee]

Also, be wary of any single male Imagineer who offers to take you under his wing and help guide you into a position with WDI while you go to school... please trust me on this one.

Yep. He went there....

Seriously...had to wipe Diet Coke off my monitor after that one.:wave:

Ok...here's what we do.
Adam, get in the car and head down the turnpike to the south end of our lovely state. I'll take you and 74 to dinner and watch ya'll banter back and forth. Way fun.

 

[CaptainMichael]

I You can't work for that company and still love it ... just doesn't work that way.

I'm not quite sure about this one, but I agree with most of your posts.

 

[Enigma]

Those should be the nicknames of Jay Rasulo and Tom Staggs ... because I've recently heard some very disheartening news.

I am trying to piece it all together and see what it exactly means, but the big picture apparently is this: after Idol opens next month EVERY/ALL WDI projects at WDI are on indefinite hold or off the table entirely.

EVERYTHING.

I'm trying to see how this affects things like HoP, Space Mountain and Star Tours 2.0 but if I am understanding it correctly those projects may all be on hold for now as well.

But nothing new is getting done at WDW at all. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

And there will be layoffs both at WDW and WDI come early 2009, take it to the bank.

There are two big 'names' at WDI who may be on the way out ... one who would be a HUGE blow to WDW if he goes.

The sad thing is these things are NOT needed to keep the lights on at WDW. This is just how Rasulo and Staggs and their top-flight WDW 'leadership' team chooses to operate.

That's why while Busch and Universal continue to put over a billion dollars into Orlando projects, Disney (with much greater resources and stock that has somehow been able to stay in the mid 20s) cuts prime rib off its buffets ... stops a freaking torch lighting at the Poly ... cuts decorations property-wide ... removes foamheads from meals ... and quietly cuts CMs.

This is only the start, btw.

When at WDW next year look for attractions to become 'seasonal' ... you like things like CoP and the Swiss Family Treehouse and the Liberty Belle? I'd enjoy em in the next few weeks myself.

Remember when World Showcase opened at noon after 9/11? Right now, they're looking at 11:30 a.m. but noon is on the table.

You think 9-5 is a short day at DAK? What if most of Africa and Asia didn't open until 10 and closed at 4 (except for Everest)? Yeah, on the table.

And don't be surprised at all if one resort gets mothballed for a while. At the very least, expect large chunks of the huge value and moderate resorts to be mothballed.

I am so disgusted by the news that the quickee WDW holiday trip I was considering just got changed ... I think I'll still be able to get prime rib at Las Vegas buffets!

Again, none of these things have to happen. This is simply the slash and burn mentality of Rasulo, Staggs and Co. and the way they choose to bleed the WDW Resort dry.

It's really all about timeshares at this point, but one must really wonder what kind of market there is ... especially when Marriott and Hilton are offering higher quality products for less money.

It's time to remember the magic because at this rate it will likely be many, many years before Disney offers any new magic in Florida.

Sorry, but this is reality.

Perhaps it is time for Bob Iger, Jay Rasolu, and Tom Staggs to be shown the door. They are unfit creatively to lead this company.

Iger is this generations Ron Miller.

 

[yankspy]

I want you to reread what your first sentence is ... over and over and over and over. Let it sink in.

I'm not surprised you want to work for The Mouse. Honestly, since you seem to have your head screwed on right, I'd strongly advise you run as far away from working for Disney as you can (and no, I have NEVER been an employee of TWDC!) You can't work for that company and still love it ... just doesn't work that way. Also, be wary of any single male Imagineer who offers to take you under his wing and help guide you into a position with WDI while you go to school... please trust me on this one.

As to your statement, if you really appreciate Disney and understand the design principals that have guided the building and development of its parks, resorts and hotels, you'll know how important the details are ... in short, they're everything. And they're crucial even if they're in a tiny corner of a darkened queue that 98% of people will walk by and not even glance at.

If you're the 'purist' you claim, then you know the dangers inherent in simply leaving them out. Cut a bit here, a bit there. Who will notice, right?
Wrong. Because when you leave enough details out you wind up with billion dollar messes like DCA, DSP and HKDL ... and when you forget about them and start watering things down you get parks with no identity like The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios.

Disney is all about immersion. That's why The Living Seas was so much more successful than The Seas With Nemo. That's why folks stand in line hours for things like Splash Mountain or PoC or Mansion, but walk by things like SGE or MILF or Imagination 3.0.

You can't cut the details because my friend, the details are exactly what set Disney apart from everyone else.



Well, you had me until Toad ... but the others were all wonderful and I miss them greatly. They were replaced by things that weren't improvements and that what galls me most of all.



Your age will always be a factor in life. It is no matter whether you are 7, 17, 37, 57, 77 etc ... doesn't matter. I only mentioned your age because it does affect your perspective on things. It isn't a bad thing to be 17 at all ... although I enjoyed 19 and 20 much more myself!




Doesn't matter ... anyone who panics over theme parks hours/closures needs to have more of a grounded existence.

FWIW, Disney is seriously contemplating doing so just as it did after 9/11. Hopefully, it won't come to that. But I'd much rather see DAK closed on Mondays and Studios on Tuesdays if it meant new projects were taken off PAUSE!



I will judge your credibility based largely on what you say and how you do so. The age factor will only come into play in areas in which I know you don't have the experience. I have dealt with Disney execs in real world work situations, so I have some idea how they operate. I got to even know Michael Eisner, so I have some perspective on him that I doubt anyone else here does. All of that I believe adds to my credibility. There are reasons I have access to information, after all, and it isn't all my charm, personality and good looks (not that any of that hurts!) :lol:



I wasn't making an introduction to this forum. I have been posting here off and on since early in 2008. I've long been a regular on Laughing Place.com and Micechat as well. Hell, I even have 'friends' at Disney who enjoy reading me! Hi guys!:wave:

And you're 100% correct about PR workers. But I am not working here ... I am telling it like it is (or will be, sadly) and am not putting any corporate spin on this.

If I worked for Disney then my words would likely frame the Mouse in a much more positive light, doncha think?

I do have scorn and disdain for Jay and Tom, as do most people who work under them, and I have no desire to make them look anything different than what they are -- two people interested in only the bottom line (mostly their own) -- with little or no regard for their guests, cast or the long term brand degridation their slash and burn mentality is causing.

FYI, the slash and burn is not just WDW/WDI ... Staggs recently submitted a proposal to Iger for a massive bloodletting at ABC. Again, something that wouldn't be needed if someone actually sat back and thought and didn't panic that the sky is falling (even if it kinda is!)




I placed it in News and Rumors because that's where it belonged. As far as I can tell, no on else here has reported that all NEW projects at WDW are on indefinite hold ... and that most certainly is news I think fans have a right to know.



And as someone whose family has been intimately involved in major entertainment/media since Hollywood started making movies, rest assured I can give you more insight into how these Dream Factories are run then most anybody you'll find on an online Disney fan site!




I don't mean fanboy in a negative manner ... but it is what it is ... fanboys start rumors about monorails going thru the Swan ... or bemoan that Horizons can't move to Tomorrowland ... or talk ad nasuem about tiny changes in SSE's descent tunnel.

Most aren't really up on anything above whatever resort/park/attractions etc ... that are their faves.

They don't necessarily get why things happen at WDW and how it fits into Disney's world-wide media empire.

I realize that might sound like a putdown, but it isn't. Not everyone is here for the same reason(s). That's great. Diversity is a wonderful thing.



You do sound so ready for a WDW Press and Publicity job. Do you know Rick Sylvain? I could put in a word for you. What about good old Gary Buchanan?

Guess what EPCOT wasn't built as a convention center. Look at all the facilities at the Epcot Resorts. Plus you have the old, ugly Millennium Village/World Showplace. ... Sorry, but you don't take a $150 million pavilion complex with three attractions, three exhibits/minor attractions, snack bar and retail and give it away for conventions. That's just BS. The same with Odyssey. It is a perfect locale for a dining facility. It used to do quite a big business too. But once Convention Services got their hands on it, it was gone for good. I know Jim MacPhee wants WoL repurposed with new attractions, but that facility was so low on the priority list before the economy collapsed. One would wonder how long it will just sit there now ...




Guest stupidity wasn't why Swan boats closed. If so, there wouldn't be one attraction open at any park. It didn't get much negative feedback either, not sure where you heard that. It wasn't that exciting, but it wasn't meant to be ... and it operated in an era where it was expected you'd get attractions like that at WDW. As for lines, I can't recall ever waiting much more than 20 minutes to ride but it wasn't open all that frequently.



Good.



That's fine. I'm over twice your age. I don't think I'll be around as long as you and I don't believe I can change the world anymore, but it's always good to see that 'tude in young people. You have the rest of your life to become bitter and disenchanted and you will! I'd just like some more E-tickets before I hit middle age ... you know the little things in life

But I wish you well in whatever you want to do ... seriously!

I just think with your obvious smarts you can do far better than Disney. Again, seriously!

This seems to be the mentality of those that you criticize. Why is it a forgone conclusion that this has to happen?

 

[Enigma]

Sorry, but this is far from reality. Yes, there are cuts on the way--and yes, there are some seasonal changes on the table, but none are as drastic as you have made them out to be.

WDI has not cut any projects already under preparation or work (meaning Space Mountain, Hall of Presidents and Stitch's Dance Party [or whatever it is called] are still a go) and there are plenty of projects still awaiting the green light. Star Tours specifically is still happening. ILM, Lucasfilm and WDI are too far into production to put the project on hold. If anything, the opening will be delayed, but the fact is that Tokyo's (and eventually Shanghai's) Tomorrowland(s) will be using the new film as a staple in their opening(s)--meaning that these resorts are driving the progress of the new film, regardless of the economic conditions here in the United States. The worst case scenario for that project is that the film won't be stateside first...

Much like Universal and Seaworld, Disney is keeping the projects necessary to keep attendance up while it holds others that were lesser in necessity. They need the newer attractions to couple with their many campaigns for lessened prices and deals.

The World Showcase won't likely see a later opening time as a whole, though the American Adventure may have its earliest show cut out to decrease some extra costs. Some pavilions may have staggered openings but not by more than a half hour at most. With Kim Possible now in the World Showcase, they are locked in for lengthier hours in the daytime, as the experience was not designed to operate past sunset.

Animal Kingdom management is not prepared (or willing) to relinquish its newly claimed "full-day" status, regardless of the economy. Animal Kingdom will not drop hours anytime soon (except for a possible 5:00 pm closing on some weekdays).

Some resorts have been targeted for potentially staggered closings but none will be shut down for more than a period of a few months at a time. The goal is to keep all of the resorts active for as much time as possible so as to allow them to remain conditioned for full service when the economy picks back up (whenever that may be).

In regards to those two major members of WDI leaving, there have been talks but they have been nothing more than talks. And truth-be-told, both members in question have been considering leaving on their own accord for quite some time. If they leave, it will be a loss, but it won't be the end of Disney or of WDI.

Personally, until any piece of this "news" goes live officially, I take it with much salt. If there has been anyone able to withstand economic strife, it is Disney, and they will do what they have always done to adjust to the times. While I mean no offense in my response, I personally feel that the OP may be overacting; claiming Armageddon at the hands of two executives taking the brunt of the blame for a set of decisions that run far higher than them. Economic situations can only get worse with signs of alarm and panic such as these, so rather than freaking at the first sign of proactive motion within the parks, we must take the time to look at the issues on a more in depth, informed manner to find that what is going on is a progressive movement by the company to protect itself and the integrity of its parks. So again, I say that this original claim isn't "reality," rather a set of negative rumors based around more positive information.

Look at these protective actions as a sign of wise decision and company strength--not as weakness or impending doom. Though cuts may seem sad, they are made to protect the "larger picture," and in this situation, that is a good thing.

your just a kid what do you know about these matters? I mean your cool and all but your like 14 and have no way of knowing how these idiots in disney's managment are gonna go. We already know tehy dont give 2 cents about the parks and there rich history.