Slash and Burn ...

Mr.EPCOT

Active Member
Hell, I think many WDW fans would be scared to death out in Anaheim let alone if they went to Paris, Tokyo or Hong Kong, to see other/better Disney resorts.

I will delight in those adventures once I have the opportunity to experience them (Disney has to start paying me enough, first, though... :lookaroun :brick:).

Disney doesn't even deserve the CoP. All they do is progress nowadays. They might as well ship it over to someone else. :(

Ironically, I hear that General Electric owns some theme parks, nowadays... :lookaroun :lol:
 

jedimaster1227

Active Member
Where are the new attractions? Progressively rolling out. You may not see it, but steps are underway for multiple new attractions around the World. Specifically the Studios, Epcot and Magic Kingdom are far into prep work. And Animal Kingdom has a whole new offering on the way--hence the largely expensive lighting package that was just installed (as a test for the larger picture) in Dinoland USA.

Oh yeah, still on the drawing board ... the board that Rauslo and Staggs stuffed into the closet. You seem to contradict your self lower in this quote... I'll point it out there.

Cutting quality and raising prices overall (deals aside) isn't a smart way of running a creative enterprise no matter what state the economy is in. I don't agree with you in the least. Like others have said, would you rather them run their business into the ground by keeping all of the unnessecaries in addition to the staples? They are acting wise in terms of financial and economic scenarios--though the fans may not like the fact that some extra magic may be lost during this recession, that loss is minor compared to the closure of a park or two on a staggered schedule. Once again, I ask you to look at the larger picture.

And I am not claiming Armegeddon, but I am stating that Disney is running its Parks and Resorts Division in a way that I don't believe is in the best interest of the guests in general, cast, shareholders, Disney's legacy and am I leaving anyone out? ...oh, and fanboys too! And I disagree with your point, except for Bob Iger, no one has a greater influence on what happens at WDW than Rasulo and Staggs ... followed by WDW's Marketing Machine and then its exec 'leadership' team. Without going too far into detail, the people that cry wolf like you did in your original post often "scare" stockholders with claims that are not substantiated (or analyzed seriously)--this only hurts the company, as people who get scared sell those shares. I'm just using this as an example to point out what your post seems to have tried to do--scare.

Do I place the blame with Bob?

Ultimately, hell yeah I do. He has made some smart moves since taking the helm at Disney, but I think many people so reviled Michael Eisner (again, I don't quite get all of that but ...) he was given way too much credit for knowing what he's doing. Without knowing the full story, can you honestly pin any more blame on Staggs or Rasulo than people did on Eisner. People in administrative positions take the blame for far more than they are guilty of. Try to once again look for the larger picture in order to find the right story--calling on scapegoats doesn't help anyone.

OK ... you had me until the very end. 'Protect the integrity of the parks?!??!' Even my buddy/WDI gadfly Lee MacDonald of LP.com wouldn't utter such a line ... well, maybe he would. Do you work for Disney?

Because you're spinning this like an expert here -- and no offense is intended, I'm just telling you how the above reads. I know there is nothing progressive about Disney and these cuts show a total lack of regard for the big picture and the integrity of Disney. Instead, they are small-minded moves designed to improve the bottom line for the next quarter and make sure tomorrow's stock price doesn't drop a few dimes. There is no long-term vision. If there was the MK wouldn't be so tired and stale when the last few years have been so good (and the 90s were great financially too!) I'm not trying to call myself an expert, but I'm trying to find reason in your posts. You start an extravagant thread targeting two officials who much of what you posted wouldn't even be under their jurisdiction and then go on about how they are hurting the resort with their decisions, but its the contrary.

I'm going to answer the above in bold.

The problem is that when you cut ... even when things get better ... at least in Disney's case, you don't often put back what got cut.

When's the last time you got turndown service at Disney resorts? What happened to the Disney chocolates you'd get with your check at full serve restaurants? Has Spoodles or California Grill began serving lunch again and I missed it? Does Epcot ever close after 9 (or 9:30) p.m. anymore? Anyone seen a Swan Boat, Keelboat or Explorer Canoe at the MK recently? Anyone have lunch at the Odyssey after a ride on Body Wars and a showing of Making of Me or Cranium Command?

No ... because once Disney cuts something it usually stays that way forever.

Wonders of Life makes more money now than it ever did as an amusement pavilion, as does Odyssey.

The Swan Boats were a terribly low capacity attraction that hindered the park. It was pulled for a reason.

Yeah. You're the one to set the record straight, right?:ROFLOL:

I am no Disney fan boy and my fantasy would be for things to be a helluva lot better than they are. I take no joy in bad news.

But Merry Christmas!:xmas:

Being on this board, no one can really talk about who is or isn't a "fanboy..."

I have to hit the bus, but I'll be back to finish my response later today...
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
In all honesty...I'll believe this when I see it. All this negativity and doom and gloom is a bit too much to handle. I really don't think we are in this much if a jam- YET.

If they continue to go in this direction, I could see this happening. But I think we are finally on the cusp of change for WDW.

Just a feeling/thought. Fire at will.:lol::wave:
 

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but this is far from reality. Yes, there are cuts on the way--and yes, there are some seasonal changes on the table, but none are as drastic as you have made them out to be.

WDI has not cut any projects already under preparation or work (meaning Space Mountain, Hall of Presidents and Stitch's Dance Party [or whatever it is called] are still a go) and there are plenty of projects still awaiting the green light. Star Tours specifically is still happening. ILM, Lucasfilm and WDI are too far into production to put the project on hold. If anything, the opening will be delayed, but the fact is that Tokyo's (and eventually Shanghai's) Tomorrowland(s) will be using the new film as a staple in their opening(s)--meaning that these resorts are driving the progress of the new film, regardless of the economic conditions here in the United States. The worst case scenario for that project is that the film won't be stateside first...

Much like Universal and Seaworld, Disney is keeping the projects necessary to keep attendance up while it holds others that were lesser in necessity. They need the newer attractions to couple with their many campaigns for lessened prices and deals.

The World Showcase won't likely see a later opening time as a whole, though the American Adventure may have its earliest show cut out to decrease some extra costs. Some pavilions may have staggered openings but not by more than a half hour at most. With Kim Possible now in the World Showcase, they are locked in for lengthier hours in the daytime, as the experience was not designed to operate past sunset.

Animal Kingdom management is not prepared (or willing) to relinquish its newly claimed "full-day" status, regardless of the economy. Animal Kingdom will not drop hours anytime soon (except for a possible 5:00 pm closing on some weekdays).

Some resorts have been targeted for potentially staggered closings but none will be shut down for more than a period of a few months at a time. The goal is to keep all of the resorts active for as much time as possible so as to allow them to remain conditioned for full service when the economy picks back up (whenever that may be).

In regards to those two major members of WDI leaving, there have been talks but they have been nothing more than talks. And truth-be-told, both members in question have been considering leaving on their own accord for quite some time. If they leave, it will be a loss, but it won't be the end of Disney or of WDI.

Personally, until any piece of this "news" goes live officially, I take it with much salt. If there has been anyone able to withstand economic strife, it is Disney, and they will do what they have always done to adjust to the times. While I mean no offense in my response, I personally feel that the OP may be overacting; claiming Armageddon at the hands of two executives taking the brunt of the blame for a set of decisions that run far higher than them. Economic situations can only get worse with signs of alarm and panic such as these, so rather than freaking at the first sign of proactive motion within the parks, we must take the time to look at the issues on a more in depth, informed manner to find that what is going on is a progressive movement by the company to protect itself and the integrity of its parks. So again, I say that this original claim isn't "reality," rather a set of negative rumors based around more positive information.

Look at these protective actions as a sign of wise decision and company strength--not as weakness or impending doom. Though cuts may seem sad, they are made to protect the "larger picture," and in this situation, that is a good thing.

Very well stated Adam. That sounds much more realistic and reasonable than the likely exaggerated, and not very realistic, doom and gloom suggested by the OP.
 

kcnole

Well-Known Member
I don't see why Disney's all doom and gloom about these economic times while Seaworld and Universal are investing so much into their resorts. Don't Staggs and Rasulo see this?

I don't know about Sea World as I don't stay up to date on that park like I should, but while I love Universal I'm not sure I can give them all the kudo's you all are. The money for HP and for Rip, Ride, Rockit were all put aside before this economic crisis began. So just like Disney is doing, they're continuing on with those projects because they were too far along to stop. However, they're cutting costs like crazy as well.

Are any of you a fan of Poseidon's Fury in IOA? I sure was. Guess what, that attraction has been destroyed at least for the time being. The water has been turned off. That means no more fountains at the front, no more water vortex (the best part of the attraction), no more water rising and coming out of the fish's mouth as the water rises around you. That ride no longer has water in it.

Have you been on Simpson's lately? All the fog and water effects in there have been turned off as well. They're making cuts left and right as well in an attempt to cut costs during this troubling time of tourism. I can't really blame the resorts for many of the cuts they're having to make (although I do believe that some of them are shortsighted). I do however have a fear that these cuts won't return after the economy gets better which is why I specifically took time to call and register a complaint with Universal regarding the Water Vortex at Poseidon's. I'm deathly afraid that they'll turn it off and no one will complain and then the bean counters will say, see nobody even noticed that effect and its really expensive to run, we should just leave it off. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
 

Thelazer

Well-Known Member
Maybe instead of cutting park hours and resots and staff. Disney should start with cutting prices.

In these hard times, people WANT to get away from it all. Why not offer them a killer deal on park tickets, hotel rooms, food and merch. Forget any funky price or discount codes. Just roll all the prices down by 40% across the board.

Disney's making plenty of money. They HAVE plenty of money.
It wouldn't kill them to make a little less for the next few years.
 

DisneyMusician2

Well-Known Member
Maybe instead of cutting park hours and resorts and staff. Disney should start with cutting prices.

In these hard times, people WANT to get away from it all. Why not offer them a killer deal on park tickets, hotel rooms, food and merch. Forget any funky price or discount codes. Just roll all the prices down by 40% across the board.

Disney's making plenty of money. They HAVE plenty of money.
It wouldn't kill them to make a little less for the next few years.

In many ways, the stay 4, get 3 and the $200 gift card are both adding up to about what you are suggesting. But cutting prices and not cutting any services will not make the problems any better, simply create a bigger issue if these methods don't work.
 

DisneyMusician2

Well-Known Member
I don't know about Sea World as I don't stay up to date on that park like I should, but while I love Universal I'm not sure I can give them all the kudo's you all are. The money for HP and for Rip, Ride, Rockit were all put aside before this economic crisis began. So just like Disney is doing, they're continuing on with those projects because they were too far along to stop. However, they're cutting costs like crazy as well.

Are any of you a fan of Poseidon's Fury in IOA? I sure was. Guess what, that attraction has been destroyed at least for the time being. The water has been turned off. That means no more fountains at the front, no more water vortex (the best part of the attraction), no more water rising and coming out of the fish's mouth as the water rises around you. That ride no longer has water in it.

Have you been on Simpson's lately? All the fog and water effects in there have been turned off as well. They're making cuts left and right as well in an attempt to cut costs during this troubling time of tourism. I can't really blame the resorts for many of the cuts they're having to make (although I do believe that some of them are shortsighted). I do however have a fear that these cuts won't return after the economy gets better which is why I specifically took time to call and register a complaint with Universal regarding the Water Vortex at Poseidon's. I'm deathly afraid that they'll turn it off and no one will complain and then the bean counters will say, see nobody even noticed that effect and its really expensive to run, we should just leave it off. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

Very interesting. I wonder how Universal is really doing at these times, when all we really have to go on is supposition from most people here on the boards.

If this is accurate, I wonder if Universal isn't considering the same kind of cuts that Disney is. Let's face it, they simply don't push the same amount of people through the turnstiles as Disney does, so who knows what might be to come.
 

mcjaco

Well-Known Member
Why doesn't WDW1974 know how to use this?
multiquote_off.gif


That is all.


:p
 

EpcotServo

Well-Known Member
Are any of you a fan of Poseidon's Fury in IOA? I sure was. Guess what, that attraction has been destroyed at least for the time being. The water has been turned off. That means no more fountains at the front, no more water vortex (the best part of the attraction), no more water rising and coming out of the fish's mouth as the water rises around you. That ride no longer has water in it.

WHAT THE?!?!?

That's the points of a Poseidon's Fury! (/TokiVoice)
:lol::hammer:

I want to see a video of the waterless water vortex.
 

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
The thing is, Disney's acting like they're practically on the verge of bankruptcy with all these cuts. But of course they're not, they're still one of the most powerful entertainment companies in the world. Sure, the economy is bad, but its not like they're a small buisness trying to survive or anything.
 

DisneyMusician2

Well-Known Member
The thing is, Disney's acting like they're practically on the verge of bankruptcy with all these cuts. But of course they're not, they're still one of the most powerful entertainment companies in the world. Sure, the economy is bad, but its not like they're a small buisness trying to survive or anything.

I'm sure that's what people said about Citibank, GM, Linens and Things, JP Morgan, Lehman Brothers, and hundreds of other Fortune 500 companies.

Don't assume that couldn't happen to Disney.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
The thing is, Disney's acting like they're practically on the verge of bankruptcy with all these cuts. But of course they're not, they're still one of the most powerful entertainment companies in the world. Sure, the economy is bad, but its not like they're a small buisness trying to survive or anything.

Disney is most likely cutting things that most people wouldn't notice as much. Open an WS a half hour later? No one's really going to notice or care. Close it an hour earlier...again, most people won't notice or care. Close half a resort? Not too big a deal. Reduce some themeing elements? In reality, many themeing effects are just eye-candy, and since a good portion of Disney's guests are visiting for the first time, it has very minimal effects on the guest experience. These are small changes that can save money without any real detriment to the guest experience. The real issue that WDW1974 seems to be getting it at is with all these cuts, Disney charges MORE. That seems to be his main point. Which I agree with...even though he does often contradict himself, but that is neither here nor there.

However, I think it's a little disingenuous to compare Disney of today with Disney of the 70s. It seems to me, that Disneys non-stop spending in the 70s and early 80s lead to its almost-hostile takeover in the mid-80s. Why would any Company put itself through that again. If you read up on Walt Disney himself, he dreamt big and left it up to his brother to find a way to finance it. That's not exactly being fiscally responsible. So Disney's current cost-cutting measures are not disasterous.
 

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
Disney is most likely cutting things that most people wouldn't notice as much. Open an WS a half hour later? No one's really going to notice or care. Close it an hour earlier...again, most people won't notice or care. Close half a resort? Not too big a deal. Reduce some themeing elements? In reality, many themeing effects are just eye-candy, and since a good portion of Disney's guests are visiting for the first time, it has very minimal effects on the guest experience. These are small changes that can save money without any real detriment to the guest experience. The real issue that WDW1974 seems to be getting it at is with all these cuts, Disney charges MORE. That seems to be his main point. Which I agree with...even though he does often contradict himself, but that is neither here nor there.

Trust me, those things are a whole lot more noticeable than you think.

Besides, that's basically the logic that Ed Wood used when he made the worst movies of all time. "Those cardboard grave stones fell over, this graveyard set is obviously phony." "Nobody's going to notice that!" And they did of course.
 

JWG

Well-Known Member
I have a hard time understanding if/how/why TWDC would be putting there eggs in the DVC sales basket the way things are now. If things get bad in 2009, I would expect DVC sales to be one of the first things to drop drastically, well before resort bookings and park attendance. Does anyone know how sales of the new BLT are doing? Better question, does anyone know what percentage of BLT sales are rollovers of existing owners? My guess would be 90-100%.

My strategy would be to put all resort development on hold and invest in the parks.

I think the answer here is simple. DVC sustained Disney during the 2001-2003 economic crisis (relative term considering our current state). Once someone buys in, they're locked in. They come because they've pre-purchased a Disney vacation for the next (close to) 50 years. Sure, you can trade out for other places, but the exchange is hardly worth it. So, the return on investment, even if sales slow are good. DVC members don't get package discounts (3 nights free), ticket discounts (except for the annual pass) or other perks that Disney has to offer the other guest groups.

The sale of the timeshare pays for the development cost and the maintenance fees pay for resort upkeep. Supplemental cash reservations are an added bonus if the resort isn't booked.

This is low risk for Disney, comparatively. Even if sales are to existing members, they still have to use those points they've added. It just means the same people are either staying longer, coming more frequently, bringing more people, or a combination of. All of which results in higher dollars spent on food and admission.

And, these people come (my family included) whether they invest in the park or not because they've been locked in. My family has 2-3 times exchanged points out to non-Disney resorts, but the point requirement is ridiculous. Once, we used points to cover a shorter 3-day cruise, also ridiculous in points. And that doesn't include the $75 booking fee to stay outside of a DVC resort.

DVC makes good money in many ways. Covering the cost and upkeep of the property is one and locking in guests at no discount is another.
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
Wonders of Life makes more money now than it ever did as an amusement pavilion, as does Odyssey.

So since they make more money now, that justifies removing a pavillion and restaurant from the average guest's park experience? God, that's a frightening bit of logic. Wouldn't it have made sense to replace them with something available to the average guest, something that would make for a better day at Epcot year-round?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Let me see if I've got this straight... We're currently experiencing the worst economic crisis of my lifetime, and Disney has the audacity to take three of their least popular, least attended, most boring attractions and possibly make them seasonal? And you're "disgusted" by this?? Wow! Didn't major in business, did you?

You really missed the point of the whole thread.

It isn't closing three attractions. It's a way of running WDW that in good times and in bad has focused on cutting quality, while increasing cost to the consumer.

It's a very bad business strategy long term because inevitably you come to a time like this and what is left to cut? The fat has been gone for years ... maybe even a decade. The muscle has had chunks cut out. What do you do?

You damage your 'brand' ... indeed many folks (including some rabid fans here) are so conditioned to a WalMarted WDW that they react with anger and ignorance when someone attempts to explain how WDW used to operate vs. how they operate today. That shows the WalMarting has done its job ... and damaged the Disney name.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Trust me, those things are a whole lot more noticeable than you think.

Besides, that's basically the logic that Ed Wood used when he made the worst movies of all time. "Those cardboard grave stones fell over, this graveyard set is obviously phony." "Nobody's going to notice that!" And they did of course.

Nope. The average guest doesn't care. And that's Disney's bread and butter. Not the people on this message board.
 

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