Tim Delaney-Valerie Edwards dismissal thread

[jakeman]

But folks are so focused on small stuff (TTA's or JC's new spiel, monorail colors, the freaking planter being built in front of Space Mountain, paint at EPCOT etc) they absolutely miss the big picture.

Why does this concern you so much? As you have repeatedly told individuals over the past few days, if you don't like what is being discussed, ignore it and don't comment. All it does is add to your negative, trollish personna.

Of course it affects Disney, jake.

But see Wall Street doesn't care. It is the never-satiated beast. It constantly wants more money, more profit. Real world circumstances don't matter. So, while an average American can lose an $80,000 a year job with benefits and be working temp jobs for $9 an hour, Disney can't make less profit. That's not allowed. Not in our 'not perfect, but it's the best system in the world bs' economy.

For a company that deals in a completely discreationary product that has no bearing on basic quality of life, I have trouble seeing the problem with that.

Statements like these falsely tie two unrelated issues together under a generic unbrella. People losing their jobs at other companies have nothing to do directly with Disney's profit. It's faulty transitive logic. McDonalds is unhealthy. McDonalds serves salads. Salads are therefore unhealthy. It's the same thing: People have lost jobs because of Wall St. Disney is a publicly traded company on Wall St. Disney is responsible for national job loss.

With all due respect, that's a crock. Some of us do know enough to call a spade a spade.

Maybe in this case, but you don't know all things about Disney, as much as you like to think that you do.

We had to let a great employee go at my company recently because he was slowly going crazy (figuratively) and had a declining quality of work. He was well liked and no one except the 5-6 people involved in his termination knew the reason. Most of his co-workers and friends questioned our decision, but we didn't say anything, it's not our place.

Unless you work for the company, which every indication is you don't, your information is always at least second hand.

So yeah, you might know more, but that doesn't prove in any way that what you know is accurate regarding the reasons (facts are usually indisputable), in general.

You may not like it, but it doesn't matter. Oh yeah, but you've got issues because some Spirits may have had a burger grilled by a Disney Legend!

I think it is pretty obvious by now who has issues around here.

I usually believe in not offering my opinions when I am clueless about what is being discussed. That seems to not stop folks here ... and of course, I'm not talking about YOU, but just in general!

And now that we've thrown a couple of jabs at each other, thank you for excluding me (for once) from that group. :wave:

 

[mcjaco]

If you don't like my 'doom and gloom' (I prefer to call it reality, although I do realize that many Disney fans would rather bury their heads in the sand than hear about the less than magical things happening) here's a solution for you: DO NOT READ OR COMMENT ON MY POSTS.

Your reality is nothing more than griping about every decision made at the mouse house. I know there are issues at Disney, and I'm not about to say everything is all roses. It never is, anywhere. And as for the not reading posts, this is an internet forum. I'll read what I want to read, and comment on what I want to comment on. Yesterday, I felt like commenting on one more of your "reality" posts. Deal. With. It.

I'm tired of reading moronic fanboi posts that have no basis in reality (hey, let's have another fifth theme park thread or how about a Spiderman being moved from IOA to MK one etc). I'm tired of people always opting to defend da man (in this case, Disney) when they are clueless about what they're talking about and being downright aggressive and hateful toward those who do.

Moronic fanboy posts are rampant at any Disney (or theme park website) no matter where you go. It's something you have to look past, or by way or your early thought: DO NOT READ IT. I haven't seen anyone be hateful towards those that "do know." I just haven't seen unbiased reporting from the likes of some around here. They only pop there head in when something "bad" happens to say "I told you so." This happens to be one of those times.

There is no way to spin this as anything but Disney removing yet another high-paid veteran Imagineer (one who worked under Walt's greats and was teaching another generation) well before his time. And the word on Valerie has been consistent from many folks, she had issues with lax quality show standards in her department and that's not acceptable in today's WDI.

Yeah, and we've lost good people where I'm at that were high paid as well. They spin it anyway they can, but it what is. A quick way to save some cash, and promote someone making a heck of a lot less to do the same job. It happens everywhere. Why would Disney be any different? The days of "What Would Walt Do?" are long gone, and as soon as some people can move past that, they'd be a lot happier with the state of the company.

Two good people were axed, one that I have had the pleasure of knowing. And somehow, that's a good thing ... or we should at least have an open mind.

Or we could continue to harp on how terrible Disney is, and this is the worst thing that ever happened.....waaaaahhhhhhh. I've spent 34 years watching Disney go through all sorts of changes. In the end, they always surprise me, even when you think it can't get much worse. Hence the open mind. I honestly don't know how some of you can live day to day with all this negativity. It's a friggin' place to enjoy, and all you can do is complain about how wrong it's being run. Either substitute milk back into your corn flakes, or get another hobby. Life is too short.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Why? To appease those that don't believe me? On an internet forum? Puh-leeze.

I wasn't being rude... I was looking for another way to confirm or conflict against what seems to be coming from the "inside". I was just trying to make conversation.

Way to pick out one sentance of my post and ignore the rest, BTW.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Not to make excuses, but the economy also plays a large part in this.

I have been watching talent, not just in the company I work for, but in the entire sector I work in, leave in droves.

Somtimes they outright retire, sometimes they are "retired", and sometimes nobody knows what happened.

Many times they go off to other, smaller companies. Places where they may not have quite the salary or presteige, but they can more easily shape things in their vision.

Mid level executives are moving out in droves to smaller companies where they can "take it easy" while still having more control.

It really is getting to be a scary world out there.

-dave

You know... That's a GREAT point... And not something that I had thought about with regard to this situation AT ALL.

 

[mcjaco]

I wasn't being rude... I was looking for another way to confirm or conflict against what seems to be coming from the "inside". I was just trying to make conversation.

Way to pick out one sentance of my post and ignore the rest, BTW.

For that, I apologize. Written word can come off much differently than spoken, and I took it the wrong way. As for ignoring, I didn't mean too. I just got caught up in other people's posts so, without further ado.....

If you have inside contacts, why don't you check in with them and see what their thoughts are? It would be one more way we could get confirmation (or not) of what these others are saying.

I have, but not heard back. If it's something they want to discuss, they will. Otherwise....

Clashes between quality and money aren't new... But the unabashed attempts to fatten the bottom line at expense of "show" IS. There also weren't shareholders to appease back then. There is now.

Which many of us here, are. Kind of like a double edged sword, ain't it. We want more money, but expect grand things which cost a lot of money and eat into that bottom line. It's a tricky situation.

It seems, from the outside looking in, that the clash is between those creatives that have been there FOREVER, and have always done things a certain way, to "Disney" standards, putting show first (like Baxter)... And those that are more contemporary and are willing to cut when needed or told to (like video screen lover Fitzgerald). Times change, companies go public, CEO's come along that have different goals that are mandated by shareholders and his bonus structure. They change priorities. Those there for decades aren't happy about that. Clash begins. Those that bend and do things the "new" way (like Delaney with DCA) survive (at least for a while). Those that don't... Don't.

You hit the nail on the head. No one likes change. The unit I work for changes procedures almost on a weekly basis. It drives everyone mad, especially when you think something worked just fine. After awhile the new procedure either works better, or gets tweaked. People fear change, that's human nature, they're comfortable with status quo. And that's what I'm trying to say. Perhaps status quo was starting to become all to familiar. There may be people lower down with big ideas, but aren't getting a chance to shine, because the dinos won't let it happen. We don't know the whole story.

I understand Corporate America. VERY well. But I also know that what sets Disney (and primarily its parks) apart from everyone else is that they WEREN'T just like Coporate America. They didn't sacrifice "show" for a buck. They weren't Six Flags. They weren't Uni. They didn't outsource, and they cared primarily about being at a level that was unattainable by anyone else... No matter how hard they tried.

But that's not what they're doing now. They're becoming another "regular" large American Corporation. That's what it's felt like they've done for the past few years. And to me, from the outside looking in, it seems like these latest moves only serve to advance that mindset. LeeMac, 74, etc., only confirm what it seems to be from this casual observer's point of view.

First, you're sounding like 74. Comparing a Six Flags, Cedar Fair park, etc, to Disney or even Universal isn't a fair comparison. They're two entirely different types of parks. Unlike 74, I hope you at least visit other parks outside of the Disney realm before making such comparisons. It makes your arguments that much more substantial, because you have first had accounts, not opinionated Walmarting blather.

Second, everyone here has done nothing but complain about the stagnation of the parks over the past ten years. That was with these Imagineers and the WDI structure in place. Now they're mixing it up and we're complaining. Where does it end? You can't have it both ways. I'm sorry but a lot of attractions over the last decade were put out there did sacrifice the "show" for a buck.

(And whenever I say "you" I mean everyone in general )

 

[Lee]

Second, everyone here has done nothing but complain about the stagnation of the parks over the past ten years. That was with these Imagineers and the WDI structure in place. Now they're mixing it up and we're complaining. Where does it end? You can't have it both ways. I'm sorry but a lot of attractions over the last decade were put out there did sacrifice the "show" for a buck.

I think you have hit on the main issue here, to some degree.
Yes the parks feel stagnant in some ways. Yes, some of the show has been weak in recent years.
However, WDI is not the place to lay that blame, in my opinion.
Those talented folks can give management whatever they want.
Want a TDS? Here you go.
Want a Hong Kong? Ok.
Management sets the parameters and budget, and WDI works within that constraint. Management wants cheap? They get what they pay for.

Take Stitch's Not-So-Great Escape. There you have an example of a really talented guy like Kevin Rafferty, put into a situation where he practically had to get into a bidding war to keep the project at WDI and not outsourced. What started life as a $30mil plus makeover, got slashed down to only a fraction of that.
We got what they paid for, no fault of WDI. Same for the SM refurb.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

For that, I apologize. Written word can come off much differently than spoken, and I took it the wrong way. As for ignoring, I didn't mean too. I just got caught up in other people's posts so, without further ado.....

I have, but not heard back. If it's something they want to discuss, they will. Otherwise....

Which many of us here, are. Kind of like a double edged sword, ain't it. We want more money, but expect grand things which cost a lot of money and eat into that bottom line. It's a tricky situation.

You hit the nail on the head. No one likes change. The unit I work for changes procedures almost on a weekly basis. It drives everyone mad, especially when you think something worked just fine. After awhile the new procedure either works better, or gets tweaked. People fear change, that's human nature, they're comfortable with status quo. And that's what I'm trying to say. Perhaps status quo was starting to become all to familiar. There may be people lower down with big ideas, but aren't getting a chance to shine, because the dinos won't let it happen. We don't know the whole story.

First, you're sounding like 74. Comparing a Six Flags, Cedar Fair park, etc, to Disney or even Universal isn't a fair comparison. They're two entirely different types of parks. Unlike 74, I hope you at least visit other parks outside of the Disney realm before making such comparisons. It makes your arguments that much more substantial, because you have first had accounts, not opinionated Walmarting blather.

Second, everyone here has done nothing but complain about the stagnation of the parks over the past ten years. That was with these Imagineers and the WDI structure in place. Now they're mixing it up and we're complaining. Where does it end? You can't have it both ways. I'm sorry but a lot of attractions over the last decade were put out there did sacrifice the "show" for a buck.

(And whenever I say "you" I mean everyone in general )

No problem, thanks for the apology, but it's not needed. :wave:

There's only a couple things I wanted to add:

1. I agree that Cedar Fair and Six Flags are different kinds of parks... I was just trying to draw some corrolaries. But I believe they are the kinds of parks they are because they KNOW they can't do what Disney does. I understand it's a different model... But I can't help but think they are the way they are because it was the easy way out. The cheap way out. The opposite of how Disney has traditionally done it.

2. Personally, I've only complained about Disney with regard to WDW. I think Disney's done some INCREDIBLE things... Just not in Florida. Florida becoming stale and run down is what led me to take my family to every other Disney park in the world over the past 2 years... And honestly I think that only made it worse!!! When you see first hand what Disney does right, it's painful to see them do it wrong... And willingly. And maybe that's solely a TDO thing, I don't know. DL has done some great things over the past 10 years... And let's not even TALK about overseas. I've long said that I'm so critical of WDW because my family and I love it so much, and hate seeing it at such a lower quality than it's sisters around the world. There have been some steps in the right direction though... Like I said, I think a year from now, we'll know what track they're really on.

I guess overall, it's just a little disconcerting to see a handful of people that are widely regarded as extremely talented in this industry being let go. Where there's smoke, there's fire... And I just really feel like I'm smelling smoke.

Common sense would tell you that the top player in an industry wouldn't let top talent get away... For whatever reason. :shrug: I DO agree with what 74 says though... If Baxter is let go at the end of his contract next year, I think we'll see a revolt like never before.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I think you have hit on the main issue here, to some degree.
Yes the parks feel stagnant in some ways. Yes, some of the show has been weak in recent years.
However, WDI is not the place to lay that blame, in my opinion.
Those talented folks can give management whatever they want.
Want a TDS? Here you go.
Want a Hong Kong? Ok.
Management sets the parameters and budget, and WDI works within that constraint. Management wants cheap? They get what they pay for.

Take Stitch's Not-So-Great Escape. There you have an example of a really talented guy like Kevin Rafferty, put into a situation where he practically had to get into a bidding war to keep the project at WDI and not outsourced. What started life as a $30mil plus makeover, got slashed down to only a fraction of that.
We got what they paid for, no fault of WDI. Same for the SM refurb.

You beat me to it. :lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

No problem, thanks for the apology, but it's not needed. :wave:

There's only a couple things I wanted to add:

1. I agree that Cedar Fair and Six Flags are different kinds of parks... I was just trying to draw some corrolaries. But I believe they are the kinds of parks they are because they KNOW they can't do what Disney does. I understand it's a different model... But I can't help but think they are the way they are because it was the easy way out. The cheap way out. The opposite of how Disney has traditionally done it.

2. Personally, I've only complained about Disney with regard to WDW. I think Disney's done some INCREDIBLE things... Just not in Florida. Florida becoming stale and run down is what led me to take my family to every other Disney park in the world over the past 2 years... And honestly I think that only made it worse!!! When you see first hand what Disney does right, it's painful to see them do it wrong... And willingly. And maybe that's solely a TDO thing, I don't know. DL has done some great things over the past 10 years... And let's not even TALK about overseas. I've long said that I'm so critical of WDW because my family and I love it so much, and hate seeing it at such a lower quality than it's sisters around the world. There have been some steps in the right direction though... Like I said, I think a year from now, we'll know what track they're really on.

I guess overall, it's just a little disconcerting to see a handful of people that are widely regarded as extremely talented in this industry being let go. Where there's smoke, there's fire... And I just really feel like I'm smelling smoke.

Common sense would tell you that the top player in an industry wouldn't let top talent get away... For whatever reason. :shrug: I DO agree with what 74 says though... If Baxter is let go at the end of his contract next year, I think we'll see a revolt like never before.

Disney as a whole is fine. American Disney Parks are what's suffering I think in terms or originality and in terms of scale. Disneyland, not so much. They've had a ton done for them in the past few years, especially this year. And in the coming years.

Walt Disney World, though...That's where the problems lie. I think the revenue made off our parks pays for the incredible things we see overseas and even in DL.


They need to start fine tuning us, too. I think it' s starting. Slowly, yes, and it will be a long process, but things do look brighter than they did a year ago, and WAY brighter than two.

 

[WDW Vacationer]

No amount of change is good for some.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

No amount of change is good for some.

That would be being a extremist. And no, that is never good, you are right.

 

[tirian]

I think you have hit on the main issue here, to some degree.
Yes the parks feel stagnant in some ways. Yes, some of the show has been weak in recent years.
However, WDI is not the place to lay that blame, in my opinion.
Those talented folks can give management whatever they want.
Want a TDS? Here you go.
Want a Hong Kong? Ok.
Management sets the parameters and budget, and WDI works within that constraint. Management wants cheap? They get what they pay for.

Take Stitch's Not-So-Great Escape. There you have an example of a really talented guy like Kevin Rafferty, put into a situation where he practically had to get into a bidding war to keep the project at WDI and not outsourced. What started life as a $30mil plus makeover, got slashed down to only a fraction of that.
We got what they paid for, no fault of WDI. Same for the SM refurb.

EXACTLY.

It comes down to management. That's why the POTC and Space Mt. refurbs were drastically cut down. FL expansion comes from execs above TDO, and doesn't count.

 

[_Scar]

I think you have hit on the main issue here, to some degree.
Yes the parks feel stagnant in some ways. Yes, some of the show has been weak in recent years.
However, WDI is not the place to lay that blame, in my opinion.
Those talented folks can give management whatever they want.
Want a TDS? Here you go.
Want a Hong Kong? Ok.
Management sets the parameters and budget, and WDI works within that constraint. Management wants cheap? They get what they pay for.

Take Stitch's Not-So-Great Escape. There you have an example of a really talented guy like Kevin Rafferty, put into a situation where he practically had to get into a bidding war to keep the project at WDI and not outsourced. What started life as a $30mil plus makeover, got slashed down to only a fraction of that.
We got what they paid for, no fault of WDI. Same for the SM refurb.

Honestly, what could of made SGE better? It's just a bad concept etirely.

 

[HMF]

If Baxter is let go at the end of his contract next year, I think we'll see a revolt like never before.

If it happens I volunteer to lead the charge.

 

[SoccerMickey]

EXACTLY.

It comes down to management. That's why the POTC and Space Mt. refurbs were drastically cut down. FL expansion comes from execs above TDO, and doesn't count.

I have a friend wh likes to blame a lot of his dislikes in the park, like the big hat, on certain Imagineers. He can't seem to see that Imagineers are more like hired help and deliver what is asked for from them. And pretty well I might add.

 

[HMF]

I have a friend wh likes to blame a lot of his dislikes in the park, like the big hat, on certain Imagineers. He can't seem to see that Imagineers are more like hired help and deliver what is asked for from them. And pretty well I might add.

It used to be the other way around. The only real bad project on which I would blame the Imagineers on is the new Spaceship Earth. Bob Zalk should have been fired immediately.

 

[SirGoofy]

The only real bad project on which I would blame the Imagineers on is the new Spaceship Earth. Bob Zalk should have been fired immediately.

Proof you have no idea what you're talking about most of the time.

 

[Lee]

Honestly, what could of made SGE better? It's just a bad concept etirely.

For a start, it was going to be a whole new attraction, not just a poor AE overlay.

But besides that, a better preshow. Higher quality animation (in house at Disney, not farmed out...), better script, better signage.

 

[_Scar]

For a start, it was going to be a whole new attraction, not just a poor AE overlay.

But besides that, a better preshow. Higher quality animation (in house at Disney, not farmed out...), better script, better signage.

I thought the space was very, very small. :shrug: How could they make it a whole new attraction?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

EXACTLY.

It comes down to management. That's why the POTC and Space Mt. refurbs were drastically cut down. FL expansion comes from execs above TDO, and doesn't count.

Thankfully! Can we get them on the case for EPCOT?

Honestly, what could of made SGE better? It's just a bad concept etirely.

Originality...:lookaroun