So ... news and rumors?

[marni1971]

Phew... very good points.

 

[MousDad]

I always wonder if WDW is going through the "period of neglect" that DL did. It is my understanding that DL was, at the time, in similar shape as WDW is now. We all now know that DL has been resurrected into the great shape it is now.

Could the same thing happen at WDW (MK specifically) in the next decade? Maybe the Mouse wanted to get the flagship up to speed first, establish a maintenance of that level, and then put the MK through the same treatment.

That's an optimistic view. Any chance it could happen?

EDIT: For the first time, Al Lutz has today echoed what has been hinted at here, namely Fantasyland being on shaky ground and Space Mountain being a very bare bones refurb. In fact, he is indicating that DL/DCA look to be the only parks getting any kind of love (since the money is already spent, technically) until this financial uncertainty passes.

 

[docandsix]

WDW1974 vs. Bob Iger in a steel cage death match

I'd pay to see it.

I guess the $$ cloud their vision, but it makes me wonder why Disney's executives are so blinded to these problems.

I still enjoy visiting WDW a great deal, but WDW1974's list of concerns is undeniable and unavoidable when one wanders the parks. I would vote the "Wal-Martification" of resort-wide retail as the most emblematic and insidious. It reflects the prioritization of profit above all else.

 

[MousDad]

^^ You mean Jay Rasulo. So far, the parks have continued to grow (on paper), so Iger has no justifiable reason to fire him, even if he were to disagree with the overall philosophy of Disney Parks management (doubt it, really).

It would be like a President firing a Secretary of Defense because he disagreed with his personal style lookaroun). The President might wish he could, but it would be bad form and show perceived weakness/bad judgement at the top. It's better to wait for his resignation, or have a tangible reason to ask for it.

My opinion: Iger was/is willing to try the Rasulo model, but for better or worse, he has to stick with it until the Parks start really declining financially. If the Parks continue to make money, I don't see a change happening.

Now the WDW management, that's another thing. But that would be Rasulo's call, unless Iger went over his head, but that would bring us back to the first scenario, and so it goes....

 

[yankspy]

I think I have been very thorough in describing the problems the MK has. We can briefly go over them again ... old stale attractions that aren't being kept up, major infrastructure problems due to neglect and poor upkeep, cleanliness not nearly what it once was, almost no live entertainment that isn't foamhead (i.e. 18-year-olds getting paid $7.50 an hour) vs. real shows with entertainers like the Diamond Horseshoe, a total dumbing down/WalMarting of retail, shops closed and retail moved into carts and areas that once were peaceful (see Pirates Plaza), huge empty dead zones where attractions, shops or dining locales closed and were replaced by ... nothing, 1991 and 2001 parades still running, cartoon based attractions placed in every land completely muddling the whole story behind each land (again a WalMarting), a dumbing down of costuming with many managers/leads wearing street clothes onstage, mature trees being chopped down and replaced by seedlings etc ... I wish we could just pop this graph out whenever someone questions where I am coming from with my 'MK bashing'

I don't know when you first visited, but I've been a WDW regular since (well, you guess the year) and to see how far standards have fallen is very, very sad. So aren't the Defenders of Mediocrity who either don't know that things were better or don't care.

As to the point you bring out above, I'd only say that Main Street has always been crowded at busy periods. It isn't any worse now ... well, actually it is ... for one very LARGE reason: the proliferation of huge monster double-wide strollers and folks using ECVs because they're too lazy to walk (I am speaking of the vast majority here, not the few folks who truly need them for medical reasons).

Go take a look at old pictures of the MK in the 1970s or 80s or 90s and compare them with today and you'll see so many more strollers and ECVs and wheelchairs too (people rent them thinking they're an automatic front of the line pass).

That's why the MK feels busier even on days where it isn't moderately crowded.



I never equate the popularity of something with its inate quality, whether it's WalMart, McDonald's, SUVs, American Idol, or politicians.

I will agree that Space Mountain remains popular, though. But it's largely because of nostalgia mixed with it being the MK's only real 'thrill' ride, and the fact it is in that huge white kewl looking building.

Wait times, though, mean little in the era of Fastpasses and capacity/labor cuts. A 30-minute wait today is very likely a 10-minute wait a decade ago.

And again as far as entrance/egress issues, I know just from talking to Ops folks that except on the busiest of times the problems are caused by way too many lazy people pushing their kids around instead of making them walk ... as an aside you see far fewer strollers (and hardly any double wides, although WDW rents them causing the problem and profiting from it) and ECVs at DL, at DLP you see very, very few ... on my visit to HKDL this summer I counted 12 strollers on one day. That's it. Because the Chinese make their children walk (the healthy, appropriate way to raise kids) as soon as they can. No pushing obese 10-year-olds thru a park as they devour a turkey leg.




I don't have the numbers to agree or disagree at this moment. I do know that anecdotally I have seen smaller crowds at traditionally busy periods (like Food and Wine Fest last month) than in the past. I do know all WDW parks had very healthy attendence the first six months of 2008. I think we can surmise the past four months haven't been that good.



Well, I think they missed the boat by delaying Star Tours 2.0. And I can tell you if Disney hadn't of killed Rivers of Light that DAK would have easily surpassed The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios in annual visits. But hey, we can all get excited by AI coming soon ... WOO HOO!




I disagree. I think I can make a very compelling argument for why I say what I do and back it up with evidence and examples and reasoned opinion.

Again, while new attractions are part of the issue with WDW today they certainly aren't the only one. It's way too simplistic to say just build more attractions. Disney has added quite a few new or replacement attractions in the past five years, but the quality is debatable on many and having Everest doesn't justify dirty bathrooms or filthy walkways, adding MILF (a disaster on its own merits) does nothing to help the merchandise situation, swapping out one version of O Canada for a very, smarmy cheap replacement does nothing to negate the fact Wonders of Life sits and rots (except when special events takes it over), adding TSMM doesn't change the fact a giant tacky cartoon hat is sitting in the middle of Hollywood Blvd. blocking the beautiful Chinese Theater (and there is no legal or 'rights' issues with the building before that untrue Internet myth/urban/CM rumor gets spouted by someone), the fact PhilharMagic is a nice 3D show that was poached from HKDL doesn't change the fact the theater is always dirty or that half the effects on Splash Mountain don't work on any given day.

I hope I've cleared up my position with this post ... new attractions will help, but they aren't the issue ... WalMarting WDW is!

You have made these points several times and many are good. I do wonder why you make them? Are you trying to convince us and perhaps move us to action? If so, then the million dollar question is, "What would you have us do"? Recognizing the problem is the easy part. Doing something about it is the hard part. I ask you because you seem to know quite a bit about the inner workings so perhaps you are more qualified than others to judge what would be an effective way to combat the declining standards at WDW.

 

[wdwmagic]

I always wonder if WDW is going through the "period of neglect" that DL did. It is my understanding that DL was, at the time, in similar shape as WDW is now. We all now know that DL has been resurrected into the great shape it is now.

In my opinion WDW is in a much better state of upkeep than DLR. I was actually surprised at the amount of graphitti, gum, flaking paint and poor restroom condition at DLR. I think the whole "DL is kept better than WDW" is a case of the grass is always greener on the other side. Having seen both sides myself in person, I'd take WDW's upkeep anyday.

 

[MousDad]

^^I'm not disputing that, necessarily. But I was actually referring to the change from what they call the "Pressler Era" into the transformation for the 50th. Most people seem to agree that this was a real rebirth of the park.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Anything new here? Haven't been able to be around as much as I'd like.

 

[TarzanRocked99-]

Speaking as a local that has AP's to all of the Orlando Parks, I have to say that the excitement generated from WDW is at a real low point. I love going to the Disney parks, but there is a huge feeling of lack of lack of care and interest from Disney itself when you visit the resort.

At the same time you visit both SeaWorld and Universal and see them both investing heavily in their resorts even with the economic downturn. You have Seaworlds new water park which is amazing, the new Manta Coaster and aquarium which also looks amazing, and a brand new show. Over at Universal, you just got the Simpsons Ride, a new coaster for next year, and of course Harry Potter for IOA which is already drawing attention from the guests just to watch it being built.

During this same period Disney has closed PI, which is strictly a budget cut as far as I am concerned and anyone who has been over there recently can attest that the darkened ghost town it has become is a new low for show quality by Disney. They are cutting entertainment all over the resort including slashing the Fantasmic Budget, and as WDW1974 has said, upkeep is absolutely appalling ecspecially around parts of Magic Kingdom.

There used to be a time when Disney would make a statement when the competition started to build new and exciting attractions by matching or even topping them with new things of their own. What we get now is the new DVC tower which they waited to grow 15 stories before even feeling compelled to tell people what it was for fear of decreasing sales at Saratoga and Animal Kingdom lodge.

When I go out to Disneyland the cast there seems much more proud of where they work and on maintaining the traditions and integrety of the park. I was never there in the Pressler era, but the 4 times I have been since 2004 I have been shocked at the difference in quality and upkeep, even including DCA. The WDW Resort as a whole is a better vacation experience, but when you break it down into its individual parts, the lack of care and interest becomes apparant.

I would love nothing more than to see Disney attendance decline this year and Universal and SeaWorld rise. Maybe that would wake someone up and start a upward trend of upkeep and additions. More than likely though Disney will stay on top of the theme park attendance race in Orlando due to the heavy discounting and there will continue to be no significant improvements/investments into the Orlando Parks. All of which is pretty darn depressing.

 

[jt04]

Speaking as a local that has AP's to all of the Orlando Parks, I have to say that the excitement generated from WDW is at a real low point. I love going to the Disney parks, but there is a huge feeling of lack of lack of care and interest from Disney itself when you visit the resort.

At the same time you visit both SeaWorld and Universal and see them both investing heavily in their resorts even with the economic downturn. You have Seaworlds new water park which is amazing, the new Manta Coaster and aquarium which also looks amazing, and a brand new show. Over at Universal, you just got the Simpsons Ride, a new coaster for next year, and of course Harry Potter for IOA which is already drawing attention from the guests just to watch it being built.

During this same period Disney has closed PI, which is strictly a budget cut as far as I am concerned and anyone who has been over there recently can attest that the darkened ghost town it has become is a new low for show quality by Disney. They are cutting entertainment all over the resort including slashing the Fantasmic Budget, and as WDW1974 has said, upkeep is absolutely appalling ecspecially around parts of Magic Kingdom.

There used to be a time when Disney would make a statement when the competition started to build new and exciting attractions by matching or even topping them with new things of their own. What we get now is the new DVC tower which they waited to grow 15 stories before even feeling compelled to tell people what it was for fear of decreasing sales at Saratoga and Animal Kingdom lodge.

When I go out to Disneyland the cast there seems much more proud of where they work and on maintaining the traditions and integrety of the park. I was never there in the Pressler era, but the 4 times I have been since 2004 I have been shocked at the difference in quality and upkeep, even including DCA. The WDW Resort as a whole is a better vacation experience, but when you break it down into its individual parts, the lack of care and interest becomes apparant.

I would love nothing more than to see Disney attendance decline this year and Universal and SeaWorld rise. Maybe that would wake someone up and start a upward trend of upkeep and additions. More than likely though Disney will stay on top of the theme park attendance race in Orlando due to the heavy discounting and there will continue to be no significant improvements/investments into the Orlando Parks. All of which is pretty darn depressing.

This is where I get confused. Everyone mentions the "credit crunch" yet SW and Uni are going non-stop. Money is available for low risk investments and it does not get more low risk than WDW. Something else is happening here that nobody seems to be able to peg. I hate that so much money is going into DVC's while no new attractions are being built. It is obvious to me they believe they will be able to sell all those rooms in the future and that means giving people a reason to commit long term (new state of the art attractions).

I believe a major build out is coming to the WDW parks but there has been a serious brain drain of "Imagineers" to other projects depleting the resources WDC uses. Jim Hill wrote a long article about this.

So when you hear the word "patience" all the time this is why.

Of course I will not be very patient about visiting again until SM gets the refurb it needs and the parks are likewise modernized. Until then my "vacation dollars" are better spent elsewhere.

 

[bjlc57]

and now you know why..

I'll have a go at it....

and now you know why there are 25 plus pages of WDW is stale..


WDW is an enigma.. "we can't build it because we are too full"
"we can't build it because we are too empty."

Pick one..

but from what Lee is saying, if this is all that WDW's brain trust have going on, you had better start looking for somewhere else to go..

and I agree with the "walmarting " of the parks.. Now the situation is that we don't have enough business to keep the parks clean? that was the first thing that WALT STATED.. this isn't a carnival... this is a special place..

but from what I read in this thread, the outlook is NOT BRIGHT but much closer to gloom and doom.. and its because these parks stopped being run by dreamers and make it happen guys and was taken over by bean counters..

and its the same with the auto industry as well. and look were they are today..

is this Disney in 18 months? going to congress for a bailout loan?

who's fault would that be.. it all starts at the top.. and the top of this heap of trash sits Mike Eisner.. GONE or not.. he more then set the tone at the end...

 

[TarzanRocked99-]

I completely agree, I don't necessarily need tons of brand new attractions, I would be happy with making the good ones you already have fresh and exciting, plus a new attraction every now and again.

I was thrilled with the attention HM got, it made it truly the crown jewel of that particular attraction. If you have been on Space Mountian in CA you would see truly the level of excellence we could have here. Our version is in the sorriest of condition and they have decided to just put a band-aid on it instead of investing the money and time necessary to make it something truly wonderful again. I just don't get why they management of MK cannot grow a set and do what needs to be done to actually improve the guest experience for the long term, you are going to have an off year anyway in 2009 with the economy in the shape that it is. Do yourselves a favor and close the ride down so that in 2010 when attendance picks back up you actually have something to draw the people back.

On that same note, anyone who has been on one of the newer versions of Buzz Lightyear can tell you just how old and outdated our version is. Yes I know it is the original, but it has been impoved on drastically and it would not take that long of a closure to install the new cars and new targets that would greatly improve the experience. The Jungle Cruise is another example, the R&D has already been done for other parks so what is so hard about installing the updates already created in order to keep the parks fresh. There are good examples in the other parks as well, but MK is definitely on the top of the list.

 

[marni1971]

Something else is happening here that nobody seems to be able to peg

Playing devils advocate, I`d cough something like "the recession is an excuse" or similar. I won`t, since peoples jobs are on the line, but the day WDW runs out of money for park investment is the day hell freezes over.

I won`t chirp on about how it isn`t how it used to be, back in the day, or similar, but the plans for the parks - short and medium term - are part and parcel of running a theme park. Current Orlando management seem to forget it takes more than celebrations and DVCs to make it tick. As mentioned above, most of the famous staple E Tickets have gotten the love they sorely needed - and who`d have place the HoP above Space Mountain? In a year or two the latter will start to become an embarrassment compared not just to the other 4 but to coasters in general in and outside of Orlando. I can`t help but get the feeling the SM farce is using the economic climate as an excuse to continue to use the claim `the guests like it`. If only the guests knew what they could and should have ridden.

Across all 4 parks there are 29 projects that I know of that WDI has ready to go. They need TDO to say yes. That is the massive stumbling block. If anyone saw Burbanks upper management or WDI reps get off the JC or Pirates or Imagination and look shell shocked it is clear the west coast has lots to give to the east coast, but only when they want it.

 

[jt04]

Playing devils advocate, I`d cough something like "the recession is an excuse" or similar. I won`t, since peoples jobs are on the line, but the day WDW runs out of money for park investment is the day hell freezes over.
If anyone saw Burbanks upper management or WDI reps get off the JC or Pirates or Imagination and look shell shocked

At least someone in management recognizes there is a problem. I noticed you didn't mention them riding SM. People get off of that ride looking more than shell shocked. :dazzle: :lol:

 

[tirian]

Current Orlando management seem to forget it takes more than celebrations and DVCs to make it tick.

It's because many of them have no vision and can't get over their college textbook learning. I'm working on my Master's now too, but I know better than to think a few business classes are going to tell me everything I need to know about the real world.

Across all 4 parks there are 29 projects that I know of that WDI has ready to go. They need TDO to say yes. That is the massive stumbling block. If anyone saw Burbanks upper management or WDI reps get off the JC or Pirates or Imagination and look shell shocked it is clear the west coast has lots to give to the east coast, but only when they want it.

Shell-shocked almost isn't a strong enough description for the reaction to Imagination. I'd say, "Just watched a nuclear missile take out Figment." :lol:

 

[tirian]

I think it depends on what you call major problems. In the last couple of years MK has been getting to the point where attendance is so high that you can barely get through Main Street after dark due to the crowds. Space Mountain very rarely has a line less than 30 minutes. For a 30 year old coaster, it's doing pretty well popularity wise.
As it currenlty stands, I dont think MK could support another land without some significant changes to how guests get in and out of the park. That second Main Street might need to be looked at again.

That's exactly what the problem is: the MK doesn't have enough attractions to absorb the Guests it already gets! I've said this many times and it bears repeating: I don't understand how this park has been allowed to go nearly 20 years without any significant additions. I'm glad to see its increasing popularity, but where does Disney expect the Guests to go once they're in the park? You can barely walk through Fantasyland even on a moderately busy day, let alone when the park is truly "crowded."

Regardless of its popularity, Space needs to be refurbished for many reasons, mostly technical and because Disney should have more self-pride than to allow it to continue being outdated. :wave:

One more thing: I agree with you about the "Grass is Always Greener" scenario about DL and WDW in every instance except PotC and Space. BUT within the last few years, DL has invested much more into its refurbs, quality control, parades, entertainment—and it makes our one good refurb (the HM) look like a rare happy incident.

 

[tirian]

When I go out to Disneyland the cast there seems much more proud of where they work and on maintaining the traditions and integrety of the park. I was never there in the Pressler era, but the 4 times I have been since 2004 I have been shocked at the difference in quality and upkeep, even including DCA. The WDW Resort as a whole is a better vacation experience, but when you break it down into its individual parts, the lack of care and interest becomes apparant.

Ironically, my experience is the exact opposite: I find that DL's CMs generally don't care as much as WDW's.

I also think Disney is still the best in Florida, with Sea World/Busch coming in second. Even though I love roller coasters, Universal just doesn't do it for me, and their obnoxious employees don't help.

 

[wdwmagic]

One more thing: I agree with you about the "Grass is Always Greener" scenario about DL and WDW in every instance except PotC and Space. BUT within the last few years, DL has invested much more into its refurbs, quality control, parades, entertainment—and it makes our one good refurb (the HM) look like a rare happy incident.

Agreed, there PoTC and Space were good refurbs.

So much of WDW's budget goes to running the entire resort. As you know, DL is so tiny in comparison, a much larger portion of it's budget can go towards the parks.

What has DL had recently that is really top notch though (besides the two refurbs)? I'd say their one and only standout over WDW is indy. DL doesnt even run a daily day parade, night parade, or firework show.

 

[wdwmagic]

Ironically, my experience is the exact opposite: I find that DL's CMs generally don't care as much as WDW's.

I agree. For me the WDW cast are more "Disney" than DL.

 

[Lee]

If anyone saw Burbanks upper management or WDI reps get off the JC or Pirates or Imagination and look shell shocked it is clear the west coast has lots to give to the east coast, but only when they want it.

Even better, I was just told the other day that the most common words heard during Lassater and Co.'s recent visit were:

"Are we doing something about this?"
and
"What is the plan here?".