OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[ProjectXBlog]

Then don't go to the American Adventure? OR maybe do and be cultured a bit. There's a big scary world out there.

it's insanely presumptuous to assume that people going into american adventure being "uncultured" to the horrors of slavery.some people just don't want to be presented with that in such an odd way as the hall of flags did. at least in the movie there's a solid amount of context

 

[networkpro]

The Hampton Court Palace is clearly represented in the UK pavilion -

And as a Stuart descendant I could take offense because Cromwell's goons are why we ended up in Georgia in 1740 as Highlanders were systematically purged, but I don't because its History.

 

[ToInfinityAndBeyond]

Long time WDWMagic lurker who feels motivated to make his first post about this topic:

The issue at hand is the Confederate Battle Flag (i.e. Battle Flag of Northern Virginia) which is found in the canton of the flag in question (upper left hand corner). Unlike the "Stars and Bars", which was not removed from the hall of flags, it's legacy did not end at Appomattox Court House in 1865. Rather, the Confederate Battle Flag is alive and well today in multiple places in our country and abroad. It is used by many as a symbol of white supremacy and re-segregation. It has been for decades. It was even used a symbol of Governments in many Southern States to lash out against the Federal legislation brought about by the Civil Rights Movement (the very movement which is honored in AA's Golden Dream montage). While many have turned a blind eye to this fact, the recent church slayings abruptly and correctly placed this fact back into our national consciousness. It is a current, living symbol of a belief system that undermines the very liberties and freedoms our country is founded upon.

I also understand that to many, this flag represents only the history and heritage of southern pride, NOT white supremacy. However, until these people put the same amount of effort into identifying and stopping those who promote their flag's current symbolism of hatred and bigotry as they do in defending their right to fly it in their yards, on their cars, and at sporting events; I fully support any person, corporation, or government that chooses to remove it.

The current symbolism of that flag does not deserve to be legitimized by being given equal status among the others in the hall of flags. And unless Disney decides to allocate some money to the AA pavilion to provide guests a deeper social context of that flag, and the symbolism/actions it has promoted through reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Movement, and still promotes today, I am good with them taking it down.

Beautifully stated. Welcome to the board, officially.

 

[arko]

So in this image I see 2 confederate flags

Did they remove both, or just the one on the right?

 

[ToInfinityAndBeyond]

So in this image I see 2 confederate flags

Did they remove both, or just the one on the right?

Just the one on the far right.

 

[WDW1974]

Just had to chime in with another thought:doesn't the broader 'flag flap' bother you because it's being used to mask, so we again don't have to deal with, with a much larger tragedy that we all ignore?

If one whacked out hater in S.C. hadn't of shot up a church while having a FB page with him wrapped in said flag, would anyone be talking about it?

What's worse? The symbol this evil man used to commit mass murder or our national love and obsession with gun ownership that allowed someone of his mental state (and views on blacks) to buy and own whatever weapons of mass murder he chose?

Yeah, that's the issue. The one no one likes because gun love is a big part of America. Unfortunately, it's one of our great shames much like slavery was in the 1800s.

 

[misterID]

You're missing my entire point. People like to try to take the slavery issue out of the discussion because it boiled down to a States' rights issue. That's a fundamental flaw in understanding the historicity behind the Civil War and our country.

If we act as you have in your example and substitute slavery for another issue, it changes the entire context and meaning of the issue in the first place. We're not talking about eating cheese. We're talking about owning people. There's a very large difference and I think someone as intelligent as you understands that. If we're teaching a high school class, we can use the cheese example to explain States' rights, but then we'd be dishonest to try to apply that same understanding to the Civil War. You completely erase the minutia involved.

Slavery was the most influential issue that divided the country since its founding. I don't disagree with many of your points, just the fact that you find a need to contest mine.

The war was about slavery. End story. More to the point, it was about an industry, the top 1% of the southern regions population, the planter class, who used states rights as a way to form a government that would maximize their profits with slave labor.

 

[flynnibus]

If we act as you have in your example and substitute slavery for another issue, it changes the entire context and meaning of the issue in the first place.

No, it removes the EMOTION from it - without changing the actual matter of dispute. You may find it troublesome in 'changing the message' because in the analogy I remove the tugging and pulling of the emotional aspect of things by substituting the disputed item with something seen as trivial. But the point of using something perceived as trivial is to highlight the dispute does not HINGE on the subject matter, but the core concepts beneath it.

The whole point of an analogy is to REMOVE the portion people are failing to grasp and replace it with something they can relate to.

Slavery was the most influential issue that divided the country since its founding. I don't disagree with many of your points, just the fact that you find a need to contest mine.

The idea of state vs federal powers was a larger point of dispute through all early iterations of our government and didn't hinge on the slavery question.

I'm not disagreeing the subject was contentious or in dispute... but the grounds people were arguing from was over their right to do what they wanted as a state without demands for the fed. Obviously the whole slavery issue being wound into what states they would allow into the union and under what conditions really fueled the fire and brought the challenges to the forefront. Both sides were trying to stack the fed's makeup to their favor

 

[invader]

it's insanely presumptuous to assume that people going into american adventure being "uncultured" to the horrors of slavery.some people just don't want to be presented with that in such an odd way as the hall of flags did. at least in the movie there's a solid amount of context

I really think you, and other people here don't understand the context of the area. If the flag was presented in a way that was intended and meant to offend it would have been. It wasn't. The flag was in an area that showcased many flags of the country it was in. Thats it. Its a historical reminder of one of the blunders of such a great country. If you begin to take away pieces of history it doesn't make sense anymore. If history isn't being taught in full, then what truly is the point? Should we remove the 26 star flag because it was what used when we forced the natives to fight the hardships of the trail of tears? Should we remove the 48 star flag because that was the flag flown when the Japanese were put into internment camps? You can apply these same concept to a slew of symbols. You can't just decided which pieces of history should be shown because it MAY offend someone. That type of thinking sets a very dangerous precedent.

 

[RR 88]

Just had to chime in with another thought:doesn't the broader 'flag flap' bother you because it's being used to mask, so we again don't have to deal with, with a much larger tragedy that we all ignore?

I agree completely with this assessment. Not only in regards to our nation's current obsession with gun rights; but I'm sure that in a few weeks, after a few flags are taken down, we'll continue with business as normal and pretend that we made great strides in racial awareness...

 

[wvdisneyfamily]

Inhumanity is an oxymoron. Its always people doing things to other people... its not like the woodland creatures or space aliens suddenly decided to pick on people. Savage is such a subjective loaded term as is "native". What time period classifies one as a native and not just a migrant from somewhere else ? Before you get riled up, both my wife and I are descendants of American aboriginal peoples Apache and Cherokee respectively. We are not our ancestors and should not be judged by their actions or inaction only what we do or do not do.

It was not my intent to engage in a debate on the connotative and denotative meanings of words or how I should've worded my post. Don't concern yourself. I will not get " riled up".

 

[ToInfinityAndBeyond]

I'm not disagreeing the subject was contentious or in dispute... but the grounds people were arguing from was over their right to do what they wanted as a state without demands for the fed. Obviously the whole slavery issue being wound into what states they would allow into the union and under what conditions really fueled the fire and brought the challenges to the forefront. Both sides were trying to stack the fed's makeup to their favor

@flynnibus, we do not disagree on most of what you have said. It seems like our argument is over context and whether it is important. I would argue that without context, we cannot even discuss the matter to the fullest. We can talk all day about States' rights, but we can't talk about States' rights in American history without discussing slavery. We're having two different conversations, one that is highly conceptual (yours) and one that is contextual (mine).

 

[TeriofTerror]

The Mason - Dixon line does not separate the North and the South. It's sole purpose was to mark where the boarder between PA and MD and MD and DE was. They had a depute over their boarder in 1760s prior to the USA even existing. Maryland and PA were both granted the same land by the crown and this line was done as a compromise. Marylanders do not consider themselves part of the south even though they are south of the Mason-Dixon line. The line also does not mark where slavery existed or who was which side during the civil war.

Yes, but after Pennsylvania abolished slavery in 1781, the western part of this line and the Ohio River became a border between slave and free states. It has therefore been long considered an unofficial cultural boundary between North and South.
Heck, even 36°30′ can't be considered a fail-safe slavery border.
Besides which, I don't actually believe the Mason-Dixon runs through Ohio.

 

[Phil12]

Long time WDWMagic lurker who feels motivated to make his first post about this topic:

The issue at hand is the Confederate Battle Flag (i.e. Battle Flag of Northern Virginia) which is found in the canton of the flag in question (upper left hand corner). Unlike the "Stars and Bars", which was not removed from the hall of flags, it's legacy did not end at Appomattox Court House in 1865. Rather, the Confederate Battle Flag is alive and well today in multiple places in our country and abroad. It is used by many as a symbol of white supremacy and re-segregation. It has been for decades. It was even used a symbol of Governments in many Southern States to lash out against the Federal legislation brought about by the Civil Rights Movement (the very movement which is honored in AA's Golden Dream montage). While many have turned a blind eye to this fact, the recent church slayings abruptly and correctly placed this fact back into our national consciousness. It is a current, living symbol of a belief system that undermines the very liberties and freedoms our country is founded upon.

I also understand that to many, this flag represents only the history and heritage of southern pride, NOT white supremacy. However, until these people put the same amount of effort into identifying and stopping those who promote their flag's current symbolism of hatred and bigotry as they do in defending their right to fly it in their yards, on their cars, and at sporting events; I fully support any person, corporation, or government that chooses to remove it.

The current symbolism of that flag does not deserve to be legitimized by being given equal status among the others in the hall of flags. And unless Disney decides to allocate some money to the AA pavilion to provide guests a deeper social context of that flag, and the symbolism/actions it has promoted through reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Movement, and still promotes today, I am good with them taking it down.

First of all it needs to be pointed out that the designer of the second national flag of the Confederate States (The Stainless Banner) was William Tappan Thompson who was an avowed racist. To wit:

"In 1863, as the Confederate flag was discussed at the Rebel congress in Richmond, a racist newspaper editor — William Tappan Thompson of the Savannah Morning News — weighed in. His idea: Put the battle flag on an expanded field of white to make “the white man’s flag.”

“As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic,” Thompson wrote. He added in another article: “As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism.”

The Confederates were enthusiastic, and adopted the new flag — the Stainless Banner in May 1863."

The third national flag of the confederate states was The Blood-Stained Banner which is the flag that was removed from the American Adventure. It too was overtly racist.

"Two months before the end of the war, the South switched to what would be called the Blood-Stained Banner: the Stainless Banner with a red stripe."

Therefore, the symbolism of the flag in question both when it was first adopted and today was to proclaim white supremacy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/.../the-confederacys-pathetic-case-of-flag-envy/

 

[draybook]

As a minority, news like this makes me sick. This country has become about as spineless and lacking of, as Mick Foley would say, "intestinal fortitude" as is humanly possible.

That's cool though, Disney leadership. You might not fly that flag in your attraction, but I'll make sure to buy one and wear it like a serape when I'm there in September.

 

[flynnibus]

@flynnibus We can talk all day about States' rights, but we can't talk about States' rights in American history without discussing slavery.

I disagree completely. Were topics of monetary policy not a problem? Trade? Military? Slavery is just one of many SIGNIFICANT topics in this area... and not even one people were willing to draw the line over in creating the government in the first place (discussed, but tabled). Slavery does not define the issue of state's rights... it's a topic you can simply pick the time era you want to discuss and find the friction topic that was most significant in the states vs fed disputes.

I get what you are saying about the context being important... and I'm not trying to separate slavery from the Civil War -- but you do need to separate Slavery from defining what the struggle is with regards to state rights and the role of the fed. The disagreement does not hinge on slavery -- that was just one topic of disagreement. States vs Fed is a much larger, far more encompassing topic. Slavery is just an example where that debate escalated to the highest level possible in an effort for states to keep what they felt was important to them.

The idea of states and the way people identified with their state more than the USA is as foreign to people today as operator connected telephone calls are. It's easy for people to just collapse onto the point of what they are fighting to keep -- vs the legal standards of why each side feels they are in the right.

It also explains why people today blindly advocate for things without any understanding of the consequences of what they scream for. Those 'other things' aren't important... just give me what I want!!! It's why the cheese isn't the issue... it's what the cheese represents

It is a logical seperation that is important... but often abused. I'm just trying to make that distinction.

No need to prolong this any further between us

 

[Sage of Time]

Well I think when your telling a story you don't have to spell out every detail.

For example let's say your watching a movie about a confederate soldier. You don't necessarily need a narrator saying "now you see here a soldier on a horse with a flag. That flag is a Confedrate flag and this is what it represents". Instead it would just be there and through the story you learn what it represents.

This is the very definition of splitting hairs.

As I said, there's an eloquent way of making this known.

 

[Sage of Time]

Pretty sure The Walt Disney Company isn't in the business of creating museums and profiting off them.

Sadly.

 

[baymenxpac]

As a minority, news like this makes me sick. This country has become about as spineless and lacking of, as Mick Foley would say, "intestinal fortitude" as is humanly possible.

That's cool though, Disney leadership. You might not fly that flag in your attraction, but I'll make sure to buy one and wear it like a serape when I'm there in September.

mick foley would actually say, "testicular fortitude," but i doubt the accuracy of quotes from my friend's father is not what you came here to debate.

 

[arko]

Just the one on the far right.

So then the Confederacy is still represented in the hall of flags, Disney just removed the more offensive one.