OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[Pumbaa1222]

Ok, a few things. Sure, you can view the Hall of Flags as a museum exhibit, if you so choose. But that's not the point. Museum exhibits edit their collections all the time to convey the message and emotion they want to elicit. And there can be no denying the intention of the entire American Adventure pavilion is intended to elicit an emotion of pride.

The whole Hall of Flags is literally ascending to an idealized version of American history. The show itself cleverly edits aspects of the history to convey this conceptualized idea of a "Golden Dream" This isn't taking anything away from the, yes, story Disney is choosing to portray. They are simply choosing not to glorify this one aspect, regardless of their intentions, it's the right choice.

If you are going through the Hall of Flags thinking about all the atrocities that the United States of America has perpetrated, Disney has clearly done something wrong. Just as, this symbol that many people find revolting, should not fit into the message of pride and grandeur and success that American Adventure reflects.

 

[asianway]

Long time WDWMagic lurker who feels motivated to make his first post about this topic:

The issue at hand is the Confederate Battle Flag (i.e. Battle Flag of Northern Virginia) which is found in the canton of the flag in question (upper left hand corner). Unlike the "Stars and Bars", which was not removed from the hall of flags, it's legacy did not end at Appomattox Court House in 1865. Rather, the Confederate Battle Flag is alive and well today in multiple places in our country and abroad. It is used by many as a symbol of white supremacy and re-segregation. It has been for decades. It was even used a symbol of Governments in many Southern States to lash out against the Federal legislation brought about by the Civil Rights Movement (the very movement which is honored in AA's Golden Dream montage). While many have turned a blind eye to this fact, the recent church slayings abruptly and correctly placed this fact back into our national consciousness. It is a current, living symbol of a belief system that undermines the very liberties and freedoms our country is founded upon.

I also understand that to many, this flag represents only the history and heritage of southern pride, NOT white supremacy. However, until these people put the same amount of effort into identifying and stopping those who promote their flag's current symbolism of hatred and bigotry as they do in defending their right to fly it in their yards, on their cars, and at sporting events; I fully support any person, corporation, or government that chooses to remove it.

The current symbolism of that flag does not deserve to be legitimized by being given equal status among the others in the hall of flags. And unless Disney decides to allocate some money to the AA pavilion to provide guests a deeper social context of that flag, and the symbolism/actions it has promoted through reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Movement, and still promotes today, I am good with them taking it down.

Do you really think that by taking this down it will in any way lessen the racism in the US or the south?

 

[baymenxpac]

sometimes an artist's words are so poignant that they speak to a current even 10 or 15 years in the future.

aaron sorkin is one of my favorite writers, and one of my favorite of his works is the series "sports night," which ran on ABC from 1998-2000. in season one, episode 11, a star black college running back and six of his teammates refuse to play for the fictional tennessee western university because the school insists on flying the confederate flag outside of its football stadium. sports night's managing editor, isaac jaffey, delivers an empassioned, on-air commentary to luther sachs, the president of the show's parent company continental corp, who is an influential tennesse western alum.

this quote is delivered by jaffey, portrayed by the brilliant robert guillaume. i leave it here as my comment. i highly recommend looking up the episode and series.

"Exaudio, Comperio, Conloquor. That's a Latin phrase that translates: To Listen, To Learn, To Speak. Those words are carved into the stone arches that form the entrance to the undergraduate library at Tennessee Western University. This afternoon, an extraordinary young man named Roland Shepard made what had to have been an excruciating decision. He said he wasn't playing football under a Confederate flag. Six of his teammates then chose not to let Shepard stand alone. And I choose to join them at this moment. In the history of the South, there's much to celebrate. And that flag is a desecration of all of it. It's a banner of hatred and seperatism. It's a banner of ignorance and violence and a war that pitted brother against brother, and to ask young black men and women, young Jewish men and women, Asians, Native Americans, to ask Americans to walk beneath its shadow is a humiliation of irreducible proportions. And we all know it. Tennessee Western has produced some outstanding alumni in the last hundred years. People of wisdom and vision. Strength and compassion. One of them is Luther Sachs. Luther Sachs owns Continental Corp, which owns the Continental Sports Channel, which you're watching right now. Luther Sachs is a generous alumni contributor to Tennessee Western with a considerable influence over its Chancellor, Davis Blake, and its Board of Trustees. Luther, you've got a phone call to make. You've got to call Chancellor Blake and tell him to take down that flag or he can stop looking for your checks in the mail. You've got to put these young men back in a classroom, and I mean pronto. These boys are gonna make you proud one day, Luther. I challenge you to do the right thing. Not an unreasonable request to make of a man whose alma mater declares Exaudio, Comperio, Conloquor. To Listen, To Learn, To Speak. In the meantime, God go with you, Roland Shepard and you six Southern Gentlemen of Tennessee. God's not done with any of you yet.

 

[ToInfinityAndBeyond]

I get what you are saying about the context being important... and I'm not trying to separate slavery from the Civil War -- but you do need to separate Slavery from defining what the struggle is with regards to state rights and the role of the fed. The disagreement does not hinge on slavery -- that was just one topic of disagreement. States vs Fed is a much larger, far more encompassing topic. Slavery is just an example where that debate escalated to the highest level possible in an effort for states to keep what they felt was important to them.

Again, on a completely, entirely conceptual level, where you are trying to understand the core mechanisms, I completely agree. I'll also agree that my last statement was worded poorly. Of course you can discuss States' rights without slavery. States' rights is an issue even today. My point was that you cannot discuss the issue of States' rights in American history as a motivation for succession (in it's entirety) without discussing slavery.

So then the Confederacy is still represented in the hall of flags, Disney just removed the more offensive one.

Precisely. That is the entire point. They are removing a flag that for some people is a symbol of centuries of conflict. That's it.

 

[RR 88]

I get what you are saying about the context being important... and I'm not trying to separate slavery from the Civil War -- but you do need to separate Slavery from defining what the struggle is with regards to state rights and the role of the fed. The disagreement does not hinge on slavery -- that was just one topic of disagreement. States vs Fed is a much larger, far more encompassing topic. Slavery is just an example where that debate escalated to the highest level possible in an effort for states to keep what they felt was important to them.

This will be my last post on the topic, as I understand the role of this forum is to discuss WDW, not rehash and argue history. However, I think you are oversimplifying the role of slavery with this great cheese debate. Cheese < Humans. Cheese does not have inalienable rights. Yes, Southern States (and some Northern States) believed slaves to be their legal property, which fits the states' rights argument. However, because slaves are de facto persons, it was much more of a human rights issue. Southerners were not only fighting to protect their states' rights, but they were also, every bit as much, fighting to prohibit African Americans from being granted the God-given rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness(whether they believed that or not). While there were other issues that caused the civil war; slavery was the biggest. I'm not much for counter-factual history, but I believe that without Slavery, there is no civil war. Of all the issues the civil war was fought over, it was only slavery that led to three constitutional amendments being written into our constitution.

This is why AA's Two Brothers montage is so beautifully and masterfully done, it is able to approach these complicated and emotional issues while simultaneously smoothing out the many rough edges that are still present.

Anyway, I'm done on this. I respect the first amendment rights of those who wish to display the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of their individuality/heritage/pride; I just ask that if you have friends or family who wield that flag with the intent and purpose of racial division, that you call them on it.

 

[Phil12]

So then the Confederacy is still represented in the hall of flags, Disney just removed the more offensive one.

They removed the third national flag of the Confederate States. It is known as the Blood-Stained Banner. It is directly symbolic of white supremacy both historically and in the present day. It was originally designed as a racist symbol.

The first national flag of the Confederate States (The Stars and Bars) remains on display.

 

[Sage of Time]

Ok, a few things. Sure, you can view the Hall of Flags as a museum exhibit, if you so choose. But that's not the point. Museum exhibits edit their collections all the time to convey the message and emotion they want to elicit. And there can be no denying the intention of the entire American Adventure pavilion is intended to elicit an emotion of pride.

The whole Hall of Flags is literally ascending to an idealized version of American history. The show itself cleverly edits aspects of the history to convey this conceptualized idea of a "Golden Dream" This isn't taking anything away from the, yes, story Disney is choosing to portray. They are simply choosing not to glorify this one aspect, regardless of their intentions, it's the right choice.

If you are going through the Hall of Flags thinking about all the atrocities that the United States of America has perpetrated, Disney has clearly done something wrong. Just as, this symbol that many people find revolting, should not fit into the message of pride and grandeur and success that American Adventure reflects.

THIS!

 

[asianway]

I think any Presidents who owned slaves should be removed from HOP

 

[flynnibus]

I think any Presidents who owned slaves should be removed from HOP

and those racist Germans and Japanese too.. geonocide doesn't stroke the 'murican mob the same way tho... we ignore it in the baltics, africa, etc even today.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Anyway, I'm done on this. I respect the first amendment rights of those who wish to display the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of their individuality/heritage/pride; I just ask that if you have friends or family who wield that flag with the intent and purpose of racial division, that you call them on it.

Im not sure an individual's intent can be determined as you pass their house/vehicle....

 

[s8film40]

This is the very definition of splitting hairs.

As I said, there's an eloquent way of making this known.

I guess the better question to ask is what would you change to make the Confederate flag in the hall of flags work for you?

 

[Sage of Time]

I guess the better question to ask is what would you change to make the Confederate flag in the hall of flags work for you?

Separate from the rest, a small plaque explaining it.

 

[Sage of Time]

Flag is down in South Carolina. Flag is down in EPCOT.

Good.

 

[RR 88]

Do you really think that by taking this down it will in any way lessen the racism in the US or the south?

No. I believe it is a current symbol that promotes a feeling of pride in many and feelings of discrimination and marginalization in others. If that were it, I would be all about leaving it up. However, it also serves as a symbol of outright aggressive hatred and superiority. Unlike the Stars and Bars next to it; I see it more as a flag that is currently being used for anti-American symbolism like white supremacy, more than as a display of American History. I do not think it belongs with the other flags.

Anyway, I'm usually not so bull-headed about things... for some reason, this strikes a chord with me.

Like I said earlier, I am done with the topic; I would be more than happy to continue our convo if you want to PM.

 

[Disneys America]

I wonder how they rearranged things so it doesn't look like there is an empty space.

 

[invader]

Flag is down in South Carolina. Flag is down in EPCOT.

Good.

The flag can be taken down but history still remains.... such a strange thing to take pride in

 

[s8film40]

Separate from the rest, a small plaque explaining it.

Yeah I would be ok with that. Actually in light of all the recent frenzy over the flag I think that would be a great thing to do.

I will say though that the way I always perceived the hall of flags to me they were arranged so that no one was more important or more significant than the others. To me the message that it always represented was that all these flags lead to one great one. I think that's what I like about it is that it represents all the things good and bad that got us to where we are today.

 

[ToInfinityAndBeyond]

I just want to say: good job everyone. It's clear some of us disagree with each other, but I'm happy that we haven't derailed like that thread from the other night.

In the end, I would happily enjoy a Dole Whip with all of you.

 

[s8film40]

I wonder how they rearranged things so it doesn't look like there is an empty space.

My guess would be knowing the way Disney does things now days there's probably just an open space.

 

[RR 88]

My guess would be knowing the way Disney does things now days there's probably just an open space.

I'm pretty sure they put an iron-on picture of Olaf on it and hung it back up. It is now referred to as the Battle Flag of Northern Arrandale.

Fighting for the Abominable Rights of snow men and snow women everywhere!