OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[ChrisFL]

First of all it needs to be pointed out that the designer of the second national flag of the Confederate States (The Stainless Banner) was William Tappan Thompson who was an avowed racist. To wit:

"In 1863, as the Confederate flag was discussed at the Rebel congress in Richmond, a racist newspaper editor — William Tappan Thompson of the Savannah Morning News — weighed in. His idea: Put the battle flag on an expanded field of white to make “the white man’s flag.”

“As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic,” Thompson wrote. He added in another article: “As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism.”

The Confederates were enthusiastic, and adopted the new flag — the Stainless Banner in May 1863."

The third national flag of the confederate states was The Blood-Stained Banner which is the flag that was removed from the American Adventure. It too was overtly racist.

"Two months before the end of the war, the South switched to what would be called the Blood-Stained Banner: the Stainless Banner with a red stripe."

Therefore, the symbolism of the flag in question both when it was first adopted and today was to proclaim white supremacy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/.../the-confederacys-pathetic-case-of-flag-envy/

And they pushed that to its extremes because at the end of the war, their flag was completely white.

 

[Shaman]

and those racist Germans and Japanese too.. geonocide doesn't stroke the 'murican mob the same way tho... we ignore it in the baltics, africa, etc even today.

We ignore modern day slavery/indentured-servitude at the hands of greedy corporations. From the use of illegal migrant labor here in the US to the children in Asia making our iPhones.

It's always been a battle between the powerful-privileged versus the rest. Race, religion, land those are pretexts. For this reason learning about our history is important. Knowledge is power.

It would be great, if Disney built a pavilion that covered the darker periods of the history of the world. Subjects like the inquisition, history of war, history of slavery, instances of genocide, etc. would open people's eyes to man's potential for evil and the institutions that made those evils possible.

But that will never happen. People want escape, and who can blame them? Most of us are over-worked, underpaid, struggling in a system that over-promises and constantly under delivers...and it pits us against one another, distracts us with shiny toys and hypnotic rhetoric...but we still hope for better.

Bring on the pixie dust.

 

[ChrisFL]

We ignore modern day slavery/indentured-servitude at the hands of greedy corporations. From the use of illegal migrant labor here in the US to the children in Asia making our iPhones.

It's always been a battle between the powerful-privileged versus the rest. Race, religion, land those are pretexts. For this reason learning about our history is important. Knowledge is power.

It would be great, if Disney built a pavilion that covered the darker periods of the history of the world. Subjects like the inquisition, history of war, history of slavery, instances of genocide, etc. would open people's eyes to man's potential for evil and the institutions that made those evils possible.

But that will never happen. People want escape, and who can blame them? Most of us are over-worked, underpaid, struggling in a system that over-promises and constantly under delivers...and it pits us against one another, distracts us with shiny toys and hypnotic rhetoric...but we still hope for better.

Bring on the pixie dust.

We already saw what that kind of subject matter does for guests...from the AK Safari ride before the park opened.

 

[Jeffxz]

If you are going through the Hall of Flags thinking about all the atrocities that the United States of America has perpetrated, Disney has clearly done something wrong. Just as, this symbol that many people find revolting, should not fit into the message of pride and grandeur and success that American Adventure reflects.

There is a slavery exhibit 10 feet away from this hall. If you walk through that and don't think about all the atrocities that the United States of America has perpetrated, there must be something wrong with you.

 

[arko]

I guess the better question to ask is what would you change to make the Confederate flag in the hall of flags work for you?

Well there still is a confederate flag in the hall of flags, so the argument is moot

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Dear Disney,

I think you're embarrassing yourselves and unnecessarily alienating people.

Sincerely,
SunsetLament

-----

As an aside, I mentioned the Confederate flag in a post on another Disney fan board about 2 weeks ago (as an example of a hot-button topic that Disney should not get itself involved in because no matter what they do, they will wind up angering some portion of people) and was summarily banned for two months (no discussion or warning - nothing). It was not magical. So I commend this thread (and message board) for at least attempting a thoughtful discussion of the topic.

 

[s8film40]

Well there still is a confederate flag in the hall of flags, so the argument is moot

I'm not opposed to the removal of the flag at all rather the reason it was removed. If they had gotten some historians to re-evaluate the flags and removed some and added others that they felt better represented the significant historical flags in the US I would be ok with that. What bothers me is that they watched what the media is doing anticipated they may get a few complaints from people that would of course develop into yet another confederate flag story to feed the media and they just removed it with no concern as to it's historical significance to the exhibit.

 

[draybook]

mick foley would actually say, "testicular fortitude," but i doubt the accuracy of quotes from my friend's father is not what you came here to debate.

Yeah, wasn't sure if the filter would let that through. Question answered...lol.

 

[Victor Kelly]

The idiotic debate is over a Naval Jack flag, not the actual flag of the Confederacy. The Naval Jack flag is being trounced by low to no information bigots and racists who jump on any bandwagon the media says to jump on.

The Confederate BATTLE flag is square. If people would bother to inform themselves correctly, this stupidity would not be happening. Disney is just as idiotic, and uniformed as the rest of the sheeple.

I figure I will get a warning or banned now, but you know what? It will be so worth it.

 

[RandomPrincess]

The idiotic debate is over a Naval Jack flag, not the actual flag of the Confederacy. The Naval Jack flag is being trounced by low to no information bigots and racists who jump on any bandwagon the media says to jump on.

The Confederate BATTLE flag is square. If people would bother to inform themselves correctly, this stupidity would not be happening. Disney is just as idiotic, and uniformed as the rest of the sheeple.

I figure I will get a warning or banned now, but you know what? It will be so worth it.

The problem is that racists turned it into a symbol of hatred during the 1960s. The flag everyone is fighting about in SC was put up during the 60s. It is recognized around the world as a symbol of "white pride".

 

[flynnibus]

The idiotic debate is over a Naval Jack flag, not the actual flag of the Confederacy. The Naval Jack flag is being trounced by low to no information bigots and racists who jump on any bandwagon the media says to jump on.

The Confederate BATTLE flag is square. If people would bother to inform themselves correctly, this stupidity would not be happening. Disney is just as idiotic, and uniformed as the rest of the sheeple.

I figure I will get a warning or banned now, but you know what? It will be so worth it.

the which flag is which debates really are not that irrelevant... the issue is what the flag is ASSOCIATED in the mob's perception... not what it actually maps too. This is all about appeasing the public mob fueled by low-threshold media and peer pumping. It's never been a factual argument over what the flag means... it's what the image is associated with... intentionally or by hijacking.

 

[prberk]

Ok, a few things. Sure, you can view the Hall of Flags as a museum exhibit, if you so choose. But that's not the point. Museum exhibits edit their collections all the time to convey the message and emotion they want to elicit. And there can be no denying the intention of the entire American Adventure pavilion is intended to elicit an emotion of pride.

The whole Hall of Flags is literally ascending to an idealized version of American history. The show itself cleverly edits aspects of the history to convey this conceptualized idea of a "Golden Dream" This isn't taking anything away from the, yes, story Disney is choosing to portray. They are simply choosing not to glorify this one aspect, regardless of their intentions, it's the right choice.

If you are going through the Hall of Flags thinking about all the atrocities that the United States of America has perpetrated, Disney has clearly done something wrong. Just as, this symbol that many people find revolting, should not fit into the message of pride and grandeur and success that American Adventure reflects.

THIS!

Actually, I think that the American Adventure pavilion is not just a conceptualized idea of a "Golden Dream." Yes, it emphasizes hope of that future, but I have long noted the show's insistance that we look at it all with an understanding of the problems we encounter(ed) as well.

In the show Ben Franklin "assures" us that his bi-focaled glasses are not rose-colored. He sees a cautionary tale in our current abundance at the end. And throughout the story they tell of problems in working out the promise of our democracy: the show even abruptly stops the narrative to point out the sad plight of the Native Americans/American Indians with the trail of tears; and of course it features the story of Frederick Douglas within the show. It also shows Ryan White (the boy who was not allowed in school because he had acquired AIDS through a blood transfusion) amid the protest signs against him.

I have always thought that the show was fairly well-balanced in telling some of the significant bad along with the good.

So, while it shows the American Adventure with an eye for the "golden dream" of democracy, it is also a cautionary tale. So, I think to imply that the show is meant only to be a sanitized idea of the dream of America is not quite right. Hopeful, yes; but cautionary and clear-minded also. In that case the flags along entrance hallway were probably most suited the way that they first were put up... including the one they took down, leaving it in historical context and not looking at history with rose-colored glasses.

(And the buildings' actors should still be in period dress to match the flag atop the building and the rest of the earyl American decor -- but that is a whole different WDW Magic debate...)

 

[JusticeDisney]

The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that the Confederate flag hanging in the American Adventure's Hall of Flags has been quietly removed:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...nfederate-flag-epcot-down-20150708-story.html

Although there's certainly a strong argument for not flying the flag over places like a statehouse, I think that it's entirely appropriate in a historical setting, like a museum or the collection of various historical flags at Epcot. Since the article didn't specify, I would assume that it is still represented onscreen during the Two Brothers segment, just like it always has (along with Lance and Tiger in the finale). If we can't learn from the past, we're doomed to repeat it; this isn't something we should celebrate, but we also shouldn't pretend that it never happened

I know there's a General Discussion thread discussing the possibilities of this, but this is confirmed news about it. Feel free to move/combine as necessary

Sorry, but anyone who thinks that displaying a clear symbol of bigotry is alright simply because it is a "part of history," is as ignorant as they come.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

The problem is that racists turned it into a symbol of hatred during the 1960s. The flag everyone is fighting about in SC was put up during the 60s. It is recognized around the world as a symbol of "white pride".

Oh nonsense. Was it "recognized around the world as a symbol of white pride" in 1981 when the Dukes of Hazzard was the #2 most watched show on television? How about 2005 when the Dukes of Hazzard movie made $111 million in ticket sales?

 

[Wikkler]

I think any Presidents who owned slaves should be removed from HOP

That means goodbye, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Johnson, and Grant (Yes, the Grant that fought in the Civil War on the Union side).

 

[Tigger1988]

Oh nonsense. Was it "recognized around the world as a symbol of white pride" in 1981 when the Dukes of Hazzard was the #2 most watched show on television? How about 2005 when the Dukes of Hazzard movie made $111 million in ticket sales?

It's been known as a white pride symbol for decades... There's really no denying that.

 

[draybook]

Sorry, but anyone who thinks that displaying a clear symbol of bigotry is alright simply because it is a "part of history," is as ignorant as they come.

You mean like the US flag that flew over the states as the native Indians were slaughtered? Or the US flag that flew when the Japanese- Americans were placed in internment camps?

 

[AdventureHasAName]

It's been known as a white pride symbol for decades... There's really no denying that.

I notice you didn't address my two questions:

1. Was it "recognized around the world as a symbol of white pride" in 1981 when the Dukes of Hazzard was the #2 most watched show on television?

2. How about 2005 when the Dukes of Hazzard movie made $111 million in ticket sales?

 

[Matt_Black]

Oh nonsense. Was it "recognized around the world as a symbol of white pride" in 1981 when the Dukes of Hazzard was the #2 most watched show on television? How about 2005 when the Dukes of Hazzard movie made $111 million in ticket sales?

Remember, The Dukes of Hazzard was originally produced when Southern apologia and propaganda was quite arguably at it's height. Remember, the late 70s through to the end of the 1980s were a time when the Grand Wizard of the KKK could run for the GOP presidential nomination and not be met with an immediate and decisive "NO" from the American people. I don't think the intention of the DoH producers was to reinforce racism (in fact, I think it's very telling that the villain of the show was named after the President of the Confederacy) but it does have unfortunate implications.

When the show was pulled from TV Land, many made the argument of "They still show Hogan's Heroes, and they have the Nazi flag in every episode." The difference is that Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz, affable though they were, were always portrayed as the bad guys. Comical, ineffectual bad guys, but bad guys nonetheless.

 

[GrumpyFan]

This looks like such a fun thread. I'm sorry I missed so much.
Can somebody bring me up to speed?

Seriously folks! It's Disney property, and they're going to do what they think is in the best interest and best represents the company and the message they're trying to convey.