OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

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Mad Stitch

Mad Stitch

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arko said:
No the stars and bars flag

The-Second-Confederate-Navy-Jack-Flag-597x384.jpg
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That is not the Stars and Bars. This is the Stars and Bars, officially the 1st national flag of the CSA.
810px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg.png
 
ToInfinityAndBeyond

ToInfinityAndBeyond

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
No... it speaks directly to your post. The crux of the matter is not the SPECIFIC item being in dispute... but simply that the matter could be disputed at all! "Root cause" -- look it up. Different from 'instigation'. Or use 'fundamental issue' if you like...

The same situation could play out with something like... Gun Control.. Abortion... or other controversial topics where the constitution does not grant the federal government say over the matter, but the Fed and some other states believe they can mandate it through the fed. You say 'stronger states rights' -- they were fighting over rights they had from the start... but the idea of the fed and the relations between the states had become strained over the differences in opinion on the matter. Here, the states felt strongly enough (for all the economic and other reasons we all know) that this was worth leaving the union over and risking war.

Too often people are blinded by the fact that the idea of the federal government as we know it today is nothing like what it was prior to the civil war, great depression, or WWII. All periods where great expansion of federal powers were enacted and became the norm, even without direct changes to the constitution.
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You're missing my entire point. People like to try to take the slavery issue out of the discussion because it boiled down to a States' rights issue. That's a fundamental flaw in understanding the historicity behind the Civil War and our country.

If we act as you have in your example and substitute slavery for another issue, it changes the entire context and meaning of the issue in the first place. We're not talking about eating cheese. We're talking about owning people. There's a very large difference and I think someone as intelligent as you understands that. If we're teaching a high school class, we can use the cheese example to explain States' rights, but then we'd be dishonest to try to apply that same understanding to the Civil War. You completely erase the minutia involved.

Slavery was the most influential issue that divided the country since its founding. I don't disagree with many of your points, just the fact that you find a need to contest mine.
 
misterID

misterID

Well-Known Member
ChrisFL said:
Ok, but it seems like Southern Pride folks are much more vocal and "in your face" about it, hence the constant confederate flag stuff, it just doesn't make sense to me
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Have you ever drank with a guy from Boston? Puts us to shame :D
 
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WDW1974

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
englanddg said:
From the article

"I think in this day and age we shouldn't be promoting a part of our history we're not proud of," she said.

Context is key. It isn't promoting, it's reflecting, just like the show's design and purpose. It isn't as if you go inside and see Bubba's Rip Rangling Muddin' Adventure where you, the rider, get to experience the "thrill of chasin' down them dirty minoritees!" :rolleyes:

Those who refuse to acknowledge the past are doomed to repeat it.

Much of my grandmother's extended family was forcibly removed from their homes and driven to reservations in a strange new part of the country stolen, er, I'm sorry, "bardered/sold" from rival tribes they never had even encountered. All this happened nearly 200 years ago. It was a terribly sad portion of our history, and one of which we should not be proud of as a country. She and some of my cousins eventually returned to their "homeland", thankfully. Oh, and the people who did this? Well, they flew this flag.

US_flag_with_26_stars_by_Hellerick.svg


And then there were those of Japanese descent who were lawfully incarcerated by people who pledged to this flag.

American%20Flag%2048.jpg


These are not proud moments in our history. Ones we shouldn't "promote", to quote the dummy from Connecticut quoted in the article.

I suppose we should remove them, too.

Right?

Right?!?!

I guess the only true appropriate measure for Disney to do, rather than having an amazingly produced, thought provoking and touching presentation that shows, in a very relatable way, that our country wasn't handed to us, but rather was a result of blood, sweat, tears, and yes...regret, is to replace it with Frozen. Because, otherwise, people and their sensitivities may be offended.

Grow the heck up.
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I think I can stop reading the thread right here.

You nailed it.

So, I'm sure the remaining 14 pages is largely a back and forth on history, the evils of slavery, sensitivity etc. ...I have no time for that. I'd rather discuss refillable mugs or why NGE has been a disaster.

Disney has again put 'appearances' and ignorance above the entire point of their own pavilion/attraction.

I'm wondering who thought this up first. Who realized the flag was hanging ... in a hall dedicated to flags from our past. I'm wondering whether Sam Lau or his replacement on Day 1, if she's replaced him yet, had it pulled. Or if this came from George Kalogridis who might recall the flag hung there.

Displaying something in a historical sense isn't promoting, but ignorant people would disagree. So, you whitewash history and you pretend that one of the most seminal periods in our history as a nation didn't exist (who cares that a major part of the attraction is dedicated to just that). Theme parks aren't supposed to be about educating anyway. Why can't every park just be the Ghetto Kingdom? Then, we could all just ride the mountains after we book them with our iPhones and meet the characters. That's what we want ... our simple, dumb Dizzy World. Pass the turkey leg, please.

I just wish one thing, one that will never happen but I wish it nonetheless, that the fan community got so angry about things like how Disney treats its Guests, its workers, how it uses and abuses its size and stature in the state of Florida and beyond to dictate things that affect people who would never visit a theme park, how it spits on its history and legacy in favor of the 'in things' of today (Elsa, Thor and Vader! Oh my!)

There shouldn't be 14 pages of posts on this topic. Not unless you're all in agreement that Disney should be shamed for acting in such a knee-jerk irresponsible manner and having no understanding whatsoever of what the American Adventure is supposed to be, has been and is.

Disgusted, but not at all surprised.

P.S. We are still honoring Tiger Woods and Lance Armstrong in the AA, right?
 
WDW1974

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Yup. I see a post discussing slavery and states rights.

Like that has ANY import in this issue at all. Too bad @EPCOT Explorer believes he's better than the folks here because maybe he could learn y'all about history. But I'd rather focus on the typically cowardly PR actions and reactions of a soulless corporation.
 
Animaniac93-98

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
P.S. We are still honoring Tiger Woods and Lance Armstrong in the AA, right?
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Yup, but it's easier to take down a flag than edit a movie. :rolleyes:

BTW, I did overhear someone once complaing about Lance being featured (becuase it's that specific CM's fault, right?) while waiting for the show to start in the lobby. Never heard anyone complain about the flag.
 
ProjectXBlog

ProjectXBlog

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
No, but we are trying to hide it from view and from the conversation. It's burying the topic vs facing it. Removing it from a setting intended as part of a historical presentation is a poster child of over-sensitivity that is sweeping the nation currently.
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its hard to argue being "over sensitive" to a flag that STILL to this day is a rallying symbol for racists nationwide. i'm not saying i agree with it being taken down in, say, an iphone app *ahem* but this is disney world for gods sake, some people don't want to see that when they're on vacation
 
Animaniac93-98

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
ProjectXBlog said:
its hard to argue being "over sensitive" to a flag that STILL to this day is a rallying symbol for racists nationwide. i'm not saying i agree with it being taken down in, say, an iphone app *ahem* but this is disney world for gods sake, some people don't want to see that when they're on vacation
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They'll still see it in the movie, though.

I forget off the top of my head, but do HoP or Mr. Lincoln out in California still have it somewhere (however minor) in their shows?
 
A

arko

Well-Known Member
Mad Stitch said:
That is not the Stars and Bars. This is the Stars and Bars, officially the 1st national flag of the CSA.
810px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg.png
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my use of the stars and bars was just to differentiate it from what he thought I was referencing, which is why I added the pictures
 
misterID

misterID

Well-Known Member
PhotoDave219 said:
No, I feel you're sugarcoating the south's history by simply referring to it as a "dark period." This entire discussion has nothing to do with what happened elsewhere; rather its about what happened in the South.
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What would be the proper description that would satisfy you, Dave? And you can try to dictate this conversation all you want, I don't have to follow, and I won't stop pointing out the hypocrisy I see in some arguments.

And I don't think the flag should be displayed on federal grounds or businesses that don't want it there. Which is closer to what this conversation is about than what happened in the south. Pointing out the problems in other regions of the country, even of the self-righteous variety, is very relevant and the attempted whitewashing everywhere.
 
invader

invader

Well-Known Member
ProjectXBlog said:
its hard to argue being "over sensitive" to a flag that STILL to this day is a rallying symbol for racists nationwide. i'm not saying i agree with it being taken down in, say, an iphone app *ahem* but this is disney world for gods sake, some people don't want to see that when they're on vacation
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Then don't go to the American Adventure? OR maybe do and be cultured a bit. There's a big scary world out there.
 
RR 88

RR 88

Member
Long time WDWMagic lurker who feels motivated to make his first post about this topic:

The issue at hand is the Confederate Battle Flag (i.e. Battle Flag of Northern Virginia) which is found in the canton of the flag in question (upper left hand corner). Unlike the "Stars and Bars", which was not removed from the hall of flags, it's legacy did not end at Appomattox Court House in 1865. Rather, the Confederate Battle Flag is alive and well today in multiple places in our country and abroad. It is used by many as a symbol of white supremacy and re-segregation. It has been for decades. It was even used a symbol of Governments in many Southern States to lash out against the Federal legislation brought about by the Civil Rights Movement (the very movement which is honored in AA's Golden Dream montage). While many have turned a blind eye to this fact, the recent church slayings abruptly and correctly placed this fact back into our national consciousness. It is a current, living symbol of a belief system that undermines the very liberties and freedoms our country is founded upon.

I also understand that to many, this flag represents only the history and heritage of southern pride, NOT white supremacy. However, until these people put the same amount of effort into identifying and stopping those who promote their flag's current symbolism of hatred and bigotry as they do in defending their right to fly it in their yards, on their cars, and at sporting events; I fully support any person, corporation, or government that chooses to remove it.

The current symbolism of that flag does not deserve to be legitimized by being given equal status among the others in the hall of flags. And unless Disney decides to allocate some money to the AA pavilion to provide guests a deeper social context of that flag, and the symbolism/actions it has promoted through reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Movement, and still promotes today, I am good with them taking it down.
 
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