Four Parks: One Stale World?

[SirGoofy]

I have to respectfully disagree here. During the Depression, many captains of industry made bold moves in order to survive. Milton Hershey made huge additions to his park during the depression. Rockefeller center was built during the depression. It is always the ones who go knock-kneed when faced with adversity who do not survive.

Yup, can't agree more. This is the time to get people excited for the future. Because as bad as it looks now, things will eventually get better. And you want to be the ones with a shiny new ride when they do.

 

[Computer Magic]

I have to respectfully disagree here. During the Depression, many captains of industry made bold moves in order to survive. Milton Hershey made huge additions to his park during the depression. Rockefeller center was built during the depression. It is always the ones who go knock-kneed when faced with adversity who do not survive.

agreed....companies that look at the big picture and long term wins. Like stocks..short term buying bad, but if you look long term 3-5 years is good.

 

[CBOMB]

Apparently because you didn't "add" anything, it's been deemed your quote was silly and should be done away with...:lookaroun

Much like this one, I'm sure.

You are so very incorrect sir or madame. My post was to demonstrate that mindless attacks on posters accomplishes nothing but bad feelings where as honest disagreement leads to an understanding of opinions, and most of the time interesting, and informative threads. I am not a moderator so you can say anything you care to. If it reflects your personality or knowledge or lack there of, is your business, and your business alone.

 

[CBOMB]

I wasn't referring to the cleanliness/maintenance issues. If you look at when my post was made and what the OP had provided at the time, it is plainly clear I was referring to the lack of any major announcements outside of BLT and the newest celebration (which I agree is pretty pathetic). :wave:

Thank you for the clarification. I think I now have a better understanding of your original intent.:wave:

 

[CBOMB]

I have to respectfully disagree here. During the Depression, many captains of industry made bold moves in order to survive. Milton Hershey made huge additions to his park during the depression. Rockefeller center was built during the depression. It is always the ones who go knock-kneed when faced with adversity who do not survive.

How very true, WDW has decided to sit on the fence rather than making a bold move. Now is the time to raise the bar on Disney standards, and innovation to what they once were, not a time to rest on your laurels.

 

[nibblesandbits]

You are so very incorrect sir or madame. My post was to demonstrate that mindless attacks on posters accomplishes nothing but bad feelings where as honest disagreement leads to an understanding of opinions, and most of the time interesting, and informative threads. I am not a moderator so you can say anything you care to. If it reflects your personality or knowledge or lack there of, is your business, and your business alone.

I agree with your critique...however, does it really add anything to re-post the posts that are seen (to you) as attacks? Really, that seems to cause more problems and create more bad will, than if it was just left with the person posting the original "attack". And, what you consider an attack, may not be an attack at all...just a miscommunication from the internet and not getting total context.

I, personally, am one who has to kind of agree with the OP...I would like to see Disney step up, in a lot of ways that was posted.

 

[ChrisFL]

Why does WDW have to have a celebration every year? Why can't there just a regular year? I really don't recall too many annual celebrations prior to the Millineum Celebration, save for the 25th of MK.

The past few celebrations all blend together and none stands out. The Millineum Celebration was awesome, 100 Years of Magic was pretty good, but the rest since then have been non-descript.

Do we really need a special celebration to go to WDW?

Apparently according to the marketing department, you do. Ironically I don't think the other parks around the world have these multiple celebrations (TDL has some anniversary stuff every 5 years, but that's it, not sure about DLP)

 

[krankenstein]

I have to respectfully disagree here. During the Depression, many captains of industry made bold moves in order to survive. Milton Hershey made huge additions to his park during the depression. Rockefeller center was built during the depression. It is always the ones who go knock-kneed when faced with adversity who do not survive.

Ah yes, I was wondering when this might come up. Honestly, I know these moves were made, but were they announced to the public months in advance? Perhaps this was a quiet movement made behind the scenes by these people until construction actually began? I do not know, I am genuinely asking here.

My point is, we really have no idea what is going on. A few people "in the know" might, but overall we really have no clue. For all we know they could be preparing for the biggest, greatest, splendorous ride ever. I doubt it, but we never know. My point is that all this conjecture is nice but very mute at this point.

 

[yankspy]

Ah yes, I was wondering when this might come up. Honestly, I know these moves were made, but were they announced to the public months in advance? Perhaps this was a quiet movement made behind the scenes by these people until construction actually began? I do not know, I am genuinely asking here.

My point is, we really have no idea what is going on. A few people "in the know" might, but overall we really have no clue. For all we know they could be preparing for the biggest, greatest, splendorous ride ever. I doubt it, but we never know. My point is that all this conjecture is nice but very mute at this point.

Rockefeller center was announced sometime beforehand. I am not sure about Hershey. Yes, we do not know. But as long as it stays respectful, it makes for good conversation. Hey, it is better than a pool-hopping conversation.:lol:

 

[CBOMB]

I loved that post with the pic of me in my bathing suit.

My ______ hasn't looked that great in ... well, it's never looked that great!

If only that were you.

 

[TubaGeek]

These are my favorite kinds of threads...

 

[disneydiva72]

I agree DVC has the power to make change. There is strenght with numbers. But has that happen or are people just selling the DVC? I see a lot for sale out there. That is what has kept me from buying into the DVC. I see lower quality, not enough to keep me from visiting but enough not to invest for 48years. I've stated it here many times, I don't know what WDW will be like in 10 years why would I invest in DVC.

Bravo. :sohappy:

 

[disneydiva72]

Well look at it this way. What other theme park is going to let people from all over the world get in free on their birthday? I think it's brilliant because Disney knows that people aren't going to fly down for just 1 day or that they will come alone. My only fear is that this next year will be more crowded than previous years.

I get into Universal AND IOA for $80.00 unlimited for a week. I think that beats one free day for only ONE person any day.

 

[whylightbulb]

OK from The Place Where Dreams Come True and Magic Lives, especially during The Year(s) of a (two) Million Dreams and coming soon: What Will YOU Celebrate? is the latest marketing/merchandising tagline ... Four Parks One World branding on merchandise and ads.

This just continues the marketing message that the individual parks (and their levels of freshness and quality) don't really matter so much as the whole of WDW.

Yet after visiting and seeing very little new ... and no new attraction construction (AI Theater nonwithstanding) going on, one must wonder if the shirts and hats and glasses should say 'One Stale World.'

Sea World and Universal Studios and Islands of Adventure all have major attractions under construction and others in the pipeline.

WDW, which is less than three years away from another milestone B-Day, has ... well ... uhm ... ah ...plenty of unsold DVC inventory either completed (Saratoga Springs) and unsold or under construction (DAK Lodge Villas, Bay Lake Tower, Treehouses at SS) and unsold.

It is a whole lot harder for Disney to weather a recession (bordering on depression for many Americans) than Universal or Busch because Disney has over 25,000 rooms and timeshares to fill nightly.

In other words, Disney's irresponsible growth since the mid-90s has put it in a very difficult position to get through tough economic times. And with all the cutbacks that started about the time Frank Wells was buried, one must wonder what is left to cut?

It all doesn't leave a lot of hope for new and great things in WDW's theme parks in the future at all.

But I am sure visionaries like Inoverherheadmeg Crofton, Erin Wallace, Al Weiss, Phil 'Magic Man' Holmes and company can keep the cash flowing while delivering magical WDW vacations to millions.

There just isn't much to get excited about when it comes to WDW these days ... and I doubt we're going to see the Imagineering Blue Sky Verandah opening in Adventureland soon ... or perhaps the Imagineering Blue Sky Wonders of the Future pavilion at Epcot ... or the Imagineering Blue Sky Soundstage at The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios or ... you get the idea.

Oh, I guess we can all look forward to the new Hall of Presidents coming in spring 2009 ... course they didn't really have much choice in that one, did they?

Stale Mountain's redo? Well, you haven't heard much about that one, have you? Neither have I ...

I could not agree more. What you are saying resonates with me and sums up just about everything I want to say to management. Even when they do decide to add new attractions, these poorly executed excuses for Disney theme park entertainment end up being duds in my opinion. They have been very pale and anemic attempts to satisfy the need for more entertainment unit capacity in just about every case since the mid nineties.

Stitch, Imagination, Nemo, Mexico, Laugh Floor - I could go on and on about how disappointing each of these venues are in my opinion. Even Everest isn't up to the standards of the 60s and 70s. it's a decent family coaster, but it lacks everything else. There are basically two show scenes, and I'm being very generous there. Even Big Thunder offers more.

Disney has gone down hill in quality in just about every area. The 3D attractions are another example. Why is everyone so impressed with Philarmagic? This attraction offers nothing new in the way of theater effects or even content. It's another montage of Disney animation! Even Honey I Shrunk the Audience includes more. At least it includes a theater motion base and the first leg ticklers. What has Philarmagic pioneered?

I know I'm in the minority on most of these opinions but I own an entertainment design firm and have worked for WDI as well as Universal and I know what could be accomplished. The problem not only lies with upper management and their reluctance to move forward despite the current economic trends but the blame must also be placed on WDI itself. I would kill to be given anywhere close to the budgets on my projects that they get to work with on a regular basis.

I can tell you that on a recent project that we just completed we were given less than half the budget Disney had for the Haunted Mansion redo and our ride was getting reviews during exit surveys that included comments such as, "better then Disney" and "extremely unique."

It's not always how much money you have to work with but how that money is managed. It's sad to say but much of the money goes to useless managers that add very little, and sometimes hinder, the creative and technical process.

I just spoke with a friend of mine who does a lot of creative development freelance work for WDI. He is confirming what you are saying regarding the lack of green lights for new projects in Florida. management is looking at the failure of Hard Rock Park for example? What the $^$%&$! Why are they looking there? That park has nothing to do with WDWs model and it opened with about half the attraction capacity it should of had for a $50 gate price. It is thinking like that and the lack of foresight with respect to the economy that has put WDW in the position it is now. After 9-11 they did the same thing. Considering the development cycle can average four years why are they waiting to see what happens?

Sorry for the rant, It is sometimes cathartic to release these thoughts in writing for at least one person to read. Okay back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Missing20K]

I can tell you that on a recent project that we just completed we were given less than half the budget Disney had for the Haunted Mansion redo and our ride was getting reviews during exit surveys that included comments such as, "better then Disney" and "extremely unique."

May I ask where this ride is located? I have a good guess as to the ride in question, but don't want to overstep any bounds. :wave:

 

[wdwCC]

That's a very good question, a fair question too ... and it deserves a thoughtful response.

I also don't want to give Disney free consulting advice here either (I do know what kind of six and seven figure contracts Disney gives its consultants in the real world, so giving them freebies just isn't in me!)

So, I guess I'll speak in generalities.

What Disney should do is go back to what made them great. Uphold the Disney Standards and don't forget the Disney Details.

That means clean, fresh, safe parks with attractions that can largely be enjoyed by those from age 8 to 88.

That means constant plussing of what is already there, while adding new reasons for people to book magical WDW vacations.

It means not having a cart of glow crap blocking the pathway in front of Norway one night last week. It means not having CMs who would dare yell at you on Buzz Lightyear because you didn't hear them ask where your party ended in the queue. It means you don't show the same tired parades and shows year in and year out. It means every shop shouldn't have the same generic Disney crap merchandise but should work to tell the story of the area it is located in. It means not dumbing menus down at fine dining locales while raising prices. It means not giving every table to advance reservations so locals and people who don't know in November where they want to have lunch on Feb. 2nd at 2:15 p.m. can actually have more than chicken fingers (of the lowest quality I might add). It means not allowing huge pathways and walkways to become simply parking lots for lazy folks who use ECVs and/or push double-wide strollers. It means not having vast 'dead zones' in parks where attractions, shops or dining locations have just been shuttered and left to decay. It means parks where the walkways are as clean as those at Sea World and where the flower beds are as maintained and manicured too.

It means not dumbing down/WalMarting to the lowest common denominator so you have a park like the MK where the lands don't have any meaning at all any more ... it's all Disney's Generic Magic Character Park ... or a giant cartoon hat tossed down in the center of an art deco recreation of Hollywood Blvd.

Above all it means thinking ... not about what Walt would do and not about what Wall Street wants (because we all see how corrupt and vile that group of Commies -- yeah that's what they've become for all of you free market lovers -- are) ... but thinking how will this decision EXCEED GUEST EXPECTATIONS.

Above all it means going back to the basics ... and the most basic thing is simply show.

Somewhere along the massive DVCing of WDW, people forgot that it's all about show.

They need to remember that.

And I got a football game that's calling me ... hope that helped!

Ok, it sounds like you are saying the world isn't exactly "stale", but headed off in a direction that is different than when the parks where opened. Some of that direction may work, some may not. Marketing the parks needs some creativeness more than anything else IMHO. They have been trying to keep the 2000 celebration going with different versions. If you are waiting for a new "Walt" to bring the company back from the execs working for stockholders, you may be waiting awhile. I guess for me, they have a ways to go before I let those problems take away from me a place and a feeling that is very special.

 

[wdwCC]

Uh, no. Someone doesn't post a thread like this and not excpect negative feedback. And there is plenty of that. So yes, people did contribute to the thread. Maybe not the way you wanted to see it but they did.

I agree with that. Regardless of what was posted, they were still making a comment.

 

[GenerationX]

... This is an argument that is often used against those of us who do remember when WDW was a better place. It must be just our memories playing tricks. There used to be gum all over the pavement. Every shop sold the same Disney crap. The food was no better. The parks weren't open later. They always had empty stores and shuttered dining locales. CMs always weighed an average of 335 pounds. There never were any shade trees in the MK. You'd always find filthy queues with holes in the walls (like Buzz in the MK or the new TSMM at the Studios). The monorails never had working AC and you always had to take buses to get around. ... wait, I am depressing myself because we both know the above is a load of fetid BS.

I have not noticed gum all over the pavement, but then again, I'm not looking for it. Maybe there is a perceptible difference in the overall cleanliness of the parks between now and 20 years ago. But I suspect it is not a difference the vast majority of guests are aware of or care much about.

Sure, the stores all sell the same crap. 20 years ago, they all sold slightly different crap. Not much of an argument.

Finally, I'm unclear as to how the average CM weight has anything to do with my overall enjoyment of WDW. I'm much, much more concerned with customer service than I am with a CM's physique. And I've been very pleased with the CMs I have encountered at the World - friendly, helpful, cheerful - they do a phenomenal job.

The scary thing is when people start telling you that you aren't remembering things as they were ... even if you have photos or brochures or whatever to prove you aren't suffering from nostalgia.

The reality is the WDW of 2008 can't touch the WDW of 1978 or 1988. It can't.

Because it may be a bigger product, but it is a less special one. One much more about marketing might than making magic.

Please define "making magic". AK is the newest park, and I find it to be filled with magic. The theming is on a par with the MK, and the attractions are top notch. I don't believe the CMs could be any more attentive.

Would WDW run the old ________ Nunis way be financially successful in 2008? We'll never know so speculation is just wasted energy. But it would certainly make for a higher quality experience than what is being offered now.

And it would certainly make for a less profitable Disney (and, in turn, a lower quality experience) than what is being offered now.

 

[hoke2007]

DVC was a great idea at first. Then they build way too many DVC resorts that will never get filled. Instead of wasting millions of dollars building new DVC resorts, they should've focused on rehabs of existing rides and building new rides. Create an atmosphere that is better than you could expect.

I don't understand why Disney execs pour billions of dollars in improving/expanding Disneyland (2 parks), but leave WDW (4 parks, 2 water parks, 20+ hotels, multiple golf courses) out to dry. It's disappointing and it will hurt WDW very soon.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

You can all me overly optimistic, or a fanboy, but I think things are on the upswing. Even with too much DVC being built and all of the problems, I've enjoyed the past few rehabs and new attractions.

They've taken experiences that no one went to and tried to spruce them up and get people to experience them again.

Not everything is every perfect, but there is mismanagement going on. Keep in mind that much of the cash flow going toward the parks is affected by the entire resort upkeep, including all of the new eateries, renovated rooms, and new construction people always seem so excited about. New buses, new monorails, keeping the gardens growing and keeping cast members employed.

Can it get stale for the frequent visitor? Sure it can. For me, it may not be as exciting as it was in the 'Golden Age'. But this age is not as bad as people make it out to be. If it is, it may be time to take some time away from the parks.