Four Parks: One Stale World?

[krankenstein]

Whats KPWSA?

I think it is Kim Possible's World Showcase Adventure.

 

[tirian]

Guys, no name calling, and no politics.

Oh, I was joking that the election seems less volatile than this thread. I didn't actually expect anybody to answer my question (which has been deleted).

 

[CarlHS]

I think MK is pretty stale. It's at -2 E-Tickets in 16 years (20K and Space Mountain (which simply does not qualify any longer), and frankly down (deleted and not replaced) 6 to 10 other attractions as well depending on how you want to count.

No other park on the planet has gotten away with continuous removal of attractions (without replacement) like MK has.

 

[WDW1974]

I think the tides are slowly turning that will eventually bring about the changes in society necessary to make these improvements happen (or make the demise of Walt Disney World happen), not necessarily quickly, but over time. I think this is the case because we are at the beginning of a new era in the United States of “anti-apathy” (I could have just used a positive phrase, but I think this more apt).

You mention the "Wal-Marting" of in America. I think this attitude has come into prominence since the mid-1990s. Most people didn’t recognize the eventual problems that would be caused by going with “cheap and easy”. A large portion of the minority who recognized a problem complained, but didn’t do anything to stop the problem.

Similarly, many people going to Walt Disney World weren’t savvy enough to recognize the cheapening of the parks, and simply bought into the changes hook, line, and sinker. These people are the reason you have generic merchandise everywhere, and everything is dumbed down—because the lowest common denominator was also the common denominator. Others, who didn’t necessarily enjoy what was going on, facilitated it by shrugging it off as what the “market dictated”.

I think this is beginning to change, and will continue to change. People are understanding that the market doesn’t dictate anything independent of what the people dictate to it. There will always be ignorant folks—but instead of trying to appeal to these consumers, I think companies are beginning to understand they need to appeal to a more astute consumer (the idiots will buy whatever everyone else is buying, so it’s not like anything needs to be offered that directly “appeals” to them).

What I mean by this is that many people are reviewing their purchases and starting to determine if the items they’re buying have requisite levels of quality (look at the growth of “health food” stores in recent years—even with the current economic circumstances). People are beginning to scrutinize the decisions of the places in which they invest their money (both in a investment sense and otherwise). In short, Americans are finally starting to drop the laziness, and care. I think today is a prime example of this, with record numbers getting out of their houses (now other factors besides anti-apathy could explain this, but let’s not go down that route—minimally, there is some anti-apathy going on there)…

Management at Walt Disney World can look at the upcoming lull in attendance as simply a result of the economic times. That is probably what they will do. It’s a much more simple solution and spares them any culpability. Alternatively, they could look at it and question what they can do to offer a product that people will continue to buy even when they are trimming the fat out of their budgets.

Maybe management won’t take the latter approach right away. However, I think they will when America’s economy recovers, and they still find themselves having people put up for sale their DVC contracts, or not planning as many annual visits, or beginning to embrace competitors who, although they may not yet have the same level of quality as Disney, are actively challenging Disney (even if this only means one day away from Disney on a trip, if Disney loses one day from each family who normally visited for seven, that is a huge hit).

In my mind, Disney cannot continue to only cater itself towards casual (read: few or once-in-a-lifetime) visitors. It has done so much to sell itself to other demographics, and if it doesn't keep these folks happy, it will suffer financially.

The one way I disagree with you, WDW1974, is on the idea that registering complaints works for us all. This is for a very reason to which you alluded--that you can levy a complaint with someone 'higher up' than the Main Street CM. Most of us cannot do this. Our best recourse is to hurt WDW financially. While I still feel too strongly about the place to ever think about going there less, I can give them less of my money when I'm there. Even this will make a palpable dent and should make a difference.

Don't get me wrong, I think voicing your opinion is important for everyone. At the very least, you can break the rose-colored glasses of others, and get them to think critically about even those things for which they hold a sacred reverence. If you still, overall, enjoy the experience about WDW, but dislike some aspects, hit those aspects financially. That's what I will do, I would encourage others to do the same. Don't like the lower standards of dining? Bring food. Don't like the merchandise? Don't buy it.


I know this post is going to catch flak for being “elitist” or “condescending”, and that’s fine. I have a firm belief that Americans need to raise our standards—not be lazy, not accept cheap and “a lot”, and not embrace mediocrity. Overall, Americans are a great and intelligent people, I just expect us to always act like it. If that makes me an elitist, well, then so be it.

Great, thoughtful post.

I will say that I still feel you're wrong about being able to hurt Disney by taking your money away. It won't work.

It didn't work when those hate-filled religious groups tried to boycott WDW because TWDC treated its gay CMs equally with its straight CMs in terms of benefits. That was a big national campaign.

Didn't make any difference, so I don't care how many individuals decide to keep away. Others will take their place.

That's why if you are there and see something that isn't right (whether it's a low quality meal, a nasty CM, a dirty restroom, an attraction that is falling apart etc ...) the best response is to make sure a manager knows about it. And don't simply take some free Fastpasses or even a free dinner at the Crystal Palace to walk away.

And as to your last graph I wholeheartedly agree ... I am an elitist and I think that's something to be proud of. I want what's best for myself, my family, my country and my (favorite) company -The Walt Disney Co.

I have no intention to sit back and accept mediocrity just because others are ignorant enough to do so.

But I don't want to write anything anyone can call nasty ... it's been a great night so i'll end right here.

Terrific post, again.

 

[SirGoofy]

That's why if you are there and see something that isn't right (whether it's a low quality meal, a nasty CM, a dirty restroom, an attraction that is falling apart etc ...) the best response is to make sure a manager knows about it. And don't simply take some free Fastpasses or even a free dinner at the Crystal Palace to walk away.

This is what people need to realize. Don't take free stuff as compensation. Make sure the company KNOWS you are upset, and not out to get free stuff. Most people who complain to us are just out to get that, but the ones who really care about the welfare of these parks come to us and let us know what we can do better as Cast Members, and when these people take the time to do that I urge them to go to City Hall and let them know, and to write to the company. Because that is the only way things are going to change.

EDIT: I want to expand my thoughts. I'm a cast member if I haven't made it obvious enough. I was a CP, and am now seasonal, and I only get to work every few months. I take great pride in my job, and am lucky enough to work at one of the rides where we can really help "make the magic," the Jungle Cruise. I know the magic still exists at Disney, because I see it in the majority of my fellow cast members. WE are not happy about the state of the parks. AI is loathed as an addition by the CMs, as is SGE and bastardizations of rides such as the Tiki Room.

If there is "bad show" happening at our location we point it out to managers, or fix it ourselves if possible. In all honesty I believe management needs to look at us, and see the passion that (most) of us have for these parks, and they can find the inspiration they need to turn the corner and make some great changes.

I'll get off my soap box now

 

[yankspy]

Great, thoughtful post.

I will say that I still feel you're wrong about being able to hurt Disney by taking your money away. It won't work.

It didn't work when those hate-filled religious groups tried to boycott WDW because TWDC treated its gay CMs equally with its straight CMs in terms of benefits. That was a big national campaign.

Didn't make any difference, so I don't care how many individuals decide to keep away. Others will take their place.

That's why if you are there and see something that isn't right (whether it's a low quality meal, a nasty CM, a dirty restroom, an attraction that is falling apart etc ...) the best response is to make sure a manager knows about it. And don't simply take some free Fastpasses or even a free dinner at the Crystal Palace to walk away.

And as to your last graph I wholeheartedly agree ... I am an elitist and I think that's something to be proud of. I want what's best for myself, my family, my country and my (favorite) company -The Walt Disney Co.

I have no intention to sit back and accept mediocrity just because others are ignorant enough to do so.

But I don't want to write anything anyone can call nasty ... it's been a great night so i'll end right here.

Terrific post, again.

That is not being an elitist. That is what everyone wants. The problem is that not everyone agrees or knows what is best. Remember, pride is a vice, not a virtue. You speak of mediocrity often. Yet you often speak in the tone of the Masses.:shrug: I am not seeing elitism here.

You do make a good point about complaining on principle and not to just get a free meal. If enough people did complain and were persistent about it as opposed to being bought off, perhaps Disney would re-think certain choices such as cleanliness, maintenance, etc.

You have yet to specifically state what you would do. I am sorry but I do not buy the line about not giving away free ideas that Disney would pay consultants for. If you loved the Company that much, you would freely give whatever ideas you had.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

How about closing this topic?

This whole forum is already in the toilet as it is.

And how come '74 can get away with name-calling, put-downs, insulting others, etc. and the rest of us can't?

Well dont let the door hit you on the on the way out.

Your input is as welcome as a fart in a space suit, and similar in odour . Fan boy rhetoric and personal jibes dressed in a Disney obsessives coat is contributing nothing of worth. May I suggest you follow your own, frequently proffered advice, if you dont like it, do one.
Just a thought.:shrug:

 

[MousDad]

Thanks. But why do I tick you off? You don't tick me off ... is it really me or what I am saying?

I don't mean, necessarily, with me or in this thread. I was talking about more from reading you for a while at LP. You have to admit, you have been know to say things in your posts that might tick some people off? :lol:

I knew the minions thing was a joke, I was using the term lightly.

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[Phonedave]

I stayed out of this thread for 22 pages. Now I feel obliged to drop the same opinion that I did on this exact same thread on MiceChat (it's much shorter over there)

First, to catergorize myself. I am not a local, I am not there every month. However I am there roughly 3 times a year.

I don't need "new" and "fresh" things at WDW every year. I don't need a new E-Ticket every 2-3 years.

What I need, and what attracted me to WDW in the first place, is a level of detail. Call it show, call it caring, call it elitest if you want.

I like things to be "perfect" I like well planted planters, I like clean sidewalks with no gum, I like neatly dressed CM's that are attentive and cheerful. THAT is what I like. That's why I stay in deluxe/DVC properties vs. values. Thats why I don't pack a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter when I fly down.

Well, the thing is, the level of attention to detail at WDW has been slipping. I still go, I still enjoy it very much. It is still head and shoulders about say Hersehy Park (which is trying, I give them credit) but it's not as far ahead as it once was.

So no, I don't think WDW is stale. I think it is suffering from a bit of neglect.

-dave

 

[Dragonrider1227]

Am I the only one who thinks one of the reasons WDW doesn't get as many refurbs as Disneyland is because of how big it is? Disneyland isn't even half the size of WDW, therefore, Disneyland doesn't have nearly as many employees to pay for, food to purchase, fireworks to constantly buy over and over, ect. so if both Disneyland and WDW made over 100 billion each, Disneyland would have extra money left over for refurbs and clean-ups than WDW would

 

[Phonedave]

PhilharMagic and Soarin are both film-based attractions and lose popularity over the years, although I enjoy them a lot. But look at Honey It's 1991 or Hey, Do You Remember Who The Muppets Were in 3D, if you think these attractions hold on to their numbers.

Just to add to my other post about not needing new things, but take care of what you have.

Soarin' - It's a very popular attraction, and one I enjoy very much.

However, it really looses a LOT of it's magic when I can see defects in the film while riding it.

Look at it this way. If it was smaller, or maybe did not have the smell injectors, but was maintained perfectly, I would be happy riding it. I would be thinking "wow, that was fun, adding smells would make it cooler, but that was still a really nice attraction" however now when I ride it, when I get off my thoughts go "what a great attraction that was designed to be, with smell and wind and movement, but why cant they fix that film, its been like that for over a year"

You see, I end of more disappointes when something is not working as designed as opposed to working perfectly but not designed to as extravagant a level.

It's a tough hill to climb. Maintence, and expecaliy proactive maintenace, is a tough thing to sell in a corporate world. Trust me, I did it for a number of years ("selling" the project, not doing the work). It is very hard to measure the cost savings of a non-event. However there is most assuredly a savings there, and when it also effects customer perception of your product, it has a HUGE impact.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

Am I the only one who thinks one of the reasons WDW doesn't get as many refurbs as Disneyland is because of how big it is? Disneyland isn't even half the size of WDW, therefore, Disneyland doesn't have nearly as many employees to pay for, food to purchase, fireworks to constantly buy over and over, ect. so if both Disneyland and WDW made over 100 billion each, Disneyland would have extra money left over for refurbs and clean-ups than WDW would

That would be true if WDW and DL both make $B 1.

If WDW and DL both have the same gross income, and WDW's operating expenses are a lot higher, then someone screwed up big time.

Rack rates, admission, and sales in conjunction with attendence rates should be set to allow for maintence of a certain level. If they are not, somone needs to attend budgeting & forecasting 101

-dave

 

[WDWFigment]

Am I the only one who thinks one of the reasons WDW doesn't get as many refurbs as Disneyland is because of how big it is? Disneyland isn't even half the size of WDW, therefore, Disneyland doesn't have nearly as many employees to pay for, food to purchase, fireworks to constantly buy over and over, ect. so if both Disneyland and WDW made over 100 billion each, Disneyland would have extra money left over for refurbs and clean-ups than WDW would

You're assuming WDW and DLR make the same amount of money, which is the flaw in your logic. For each additional cost WDW has, it brings in additional revenue. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would hazard a guess that WDW profits more than DLR at an amount proportional to its additional size and costs.

 

[kcnole]

Name a ride at one of the other parks that has the timeless, unforgettable staying power of Pirates of the Caribbean or Splash Mountain.

You just made my point. Looking at all the attractions Disney has built over the last few years, which ones have this staying power? Maybe Everest. MILF? SGE? Those certainly won't have staying power. Disney is supposed to be better than the rest. The rides you talk about having this great staying power were built back when the park was actually good. That's what we want things to get back to. Personally one good staying power ride in 16 years is the problem we're complaining about.

Secondly I can name a ride at other parks that have staying power without even thinking. Spiderman at IOA is fantastic. There's a good chance that the HP land will have some amazing staying power at IOA but its way too early to say on that one. But even if they don't, I don't care in that relation. I'm wanting attractions at Disney that match the quality of those attractions that Walt built years ago. Build todays rides to the same quality we built HM to, keep those rides built up to the standards expected of them (See SM falling apart).

That's what we're asking for. Disney has a great reputation for being the best in the business and for a long time they were. Now they're resting on that reputation instead of building upon it.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

It is also vital to remember that not all of the profit from the parks department goes back into the parks department. The parks are easily the most profitable of the Disney divisions, and as such support the rest of the company when they are in crisis. That money gets funneled throughout Disney corporate.

Also, DL will get more cash and attention right now. It is important for them to fix their problems due to the large local fan population. WDW has the international contingent and many more visitors who will not come as often and can afford a setback.

I hate it, but this is the truth. Don't assume when Disney raises prices it is all going to the parks in FL. We can only hope that his trend will improve over the next few years as DCA's problems are remedied.

 

[WildcatDen]

... it's been a great night so i'll end right here.

Cost's, they will be going up, up, and away. . . .

Since profits will be squeezed, I really don't see Disney being able to afford to bring the parks back to your expectations.

"Of course, there is always golf to be played and tennis to be served out. . . ."

anyone, anyone

:xmas:

 

[WDW1974]

Just to add to my other post about not needing new things, but take care of what you have.

Soarin' - It's a very popular attraction, and one I enjoy very much.

However, it really looses a LOT of it's magic when I can see defects in the film while riding it.

Look at it this way. If it was smaller, or maybe did not have the smell injectors, but was maintained perfectly, I would be happy riding it. I would be thinking "wow, that was fun, adding smells would make it cooler, but that was still a really nice attraction" however now when I ride it, when I get off my thoughts go "what a great attraction that was designed to be, with smell and wind and movement, but why cant they fix that film, its been like that for over a year"

You see, I end of more disappointes when something is not working as designed as opposed to working perfectly but not designed to as extravagant a level.

It's a tough hill to climb. Maintence, and expecaliy proactive maintenace, is a tough thing to sell in a corporate world. Trust me, I did it for a number of years ("selling" the project, not doing the work). It is very hard to measure the cost savings of a non-event. However there is most assuredly a savings there, and when it also effects customer perception of your product, it has a HUGE impact.

-dave

Dave ... just wanted to say that I agree with both your posts (will comment on the above in a second).

I also think you 'get' where I am coming from on staleness ... it doesn't just mean adding new attractions ... it means clean, well-maintained parks with nice flowers and trees and sidewalks that are clean and not missing chunks of concrete ... and it means having CMs who are happy (or can fake it well) about making magical experiences for guests ... it means the whole package. It doesn't simply mean the MK is stale because it has parades from 1991 and 2001 still chugging along or because no new major attraction has been built since 1992. Staleness reflects the total package and I think so many here are completely missing what I am saying or they just don't care ... they go to WDW to ride Space Mountain 16 times in one day ... that type of fanboy/gal.

As to the above, I can't enjoy Soarin because everytime I go on it I see a huge alien dustball about to swallow the Golden Gate Bridge ... it's been there almost since the attraction debuted since Disney didn't invest in the technology to keep the print clear/clean. That is incredibly bad show, and it would never have flown (pardon the pun) back in the good, old days.

But standards have been allowed to fall so far that I am convinced most fans don't even see what's right in front of them.

I will say, however, that crap like that wouldn't fly in Anaheim because they do have a more discerning, savvy visitor base.

That's why when DL was allowed to fall apart you had huge fan campaigns and stories in mainstream media. When the MK falls into disrepair you get collective yawns along with newbie 'fans' saying the place has never been better.

 

[WDW1974]

Cost's, they will be going up, up, and away. . . .

Since profits will be squeezed, I really don't see Disney being able to afford to bring the parks back to your expectations.

"Of course, there is always golf to be played and tennis to be served out. . . ."

anyone, anyone

:xmas:

You are very funny, Santa.

I don't Disney ever bringing its Florida parks up to my expectations because it doesn't see the profit in it.

As to costs, that's part of doing business. If costs are going up for the American consumer when they buy gas or milk or clothes, why should Disney be immune?

Of course, we all know that being a large corporation that is beholden to Wall Street and institutional investors it would take a (pardon the shameless political reference) maverick CEO to thumb his nose at the Street and say 'I'm building this company to be strong 10 years from now, not the next quarter. I'm not cutting quality now to make the bottom line look better in FQ2 '09 when it will be disasterous come 2012.'

I know that's just a pipe dream, though.

 

[mcjaco]

There are much healthier things to do online ... like !:animwink:

Probably the best thing said thus far! :ROFLOL:

There also is a tremendous amount of misinformation out there in the Internet Era and rumors take on lives of their own. Sometimes, it's good to just set the record straight when you know something isn't accurate.

To which quite a few people here fall into this trap, as well as other boards. Even the highest of the higher ups aren't diseminating that much info down the chain to some lowly posters on a fan board, or a blog. Believe what you all want to, but no one has "real" inside info on upcoming projects. Except those actually working on it. Why is there continued praise to people that haven't actually proven that they're right? A certain blogger comes to mind. :lookaroun

Thanks. But why do I tick you off? You don't tick me off ... is it really me or what I am saying?

Your thoughts don't tick me off. In fact, in most cases I think you're right on. WDW is a shell of what it was back in the 80's. I've made well over 40 trips to the World in my 33 years, plus some trips to DLR. It's been a magnificent flip flop between the two parks over the past 20 years. DLR is a rising star, and WDW, is flopping.

I have only one question.

Why can't anyone use the multiquote tool around these parts? :hammer:

 

[WildcatDen]

I know that's just a pipe dream, though.

Ah, the ever popular "Cheech and Chong" reference. Yes, tis but a pipe dream, but it is your love of the halflings weed that has dulled your senses. A virtual pipe dream that encapsolates only the pure at heart and the weak at knees.

By the way, IMO, most of your case is strong. Not necessarily feasible, but strong, none the less.

:king: