Four Parks: One Stale World?

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
As to the above, I can't enjoy Soarin because everytime I go on it I see a huge alien dustball about to swallow the Golden Gate Bridge ... it's been there almost since the attraction debuted since Disney didn't invest in the technology to keep the print clear/clean. That is incredibly bad show, and it would never have flown (pardon the pun) back in the good, old days.


The dustball does not get me as much as the black spots in the clear cover film. You can see them at about 10 O'clock about halfway out from the center of the film. They come and go in all scenes, and depending on the scene look more or less pronounced.

On the ocean shot they look almost like black birds circling.

Once you notice them, it's hard to ignore them.

-dave
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
To which quite a few people here fall into this trap, as well as other boards. Even the highest of the higher ups aren't diseminating that much info down the chain to some lowly posters on a fan board, or a blog. Believe what you all want to, but no one has "real" inside info on upcoming projects. Except those actually working on it. Why is there continued praise to people that haven't actually proven that they're right? A certain blogger comes to mind. :lookaroun

I don't agree with that completely because well ... information has ... uhm ... filtered its way down to me in the past from sources on high. Actually, it still does. But not so much about WDW. More about WDI and projects around the world.

The thing is, though, information changes.

When Jim Hill 'broke' the news about 'Night Kingdom' (which was never going to be the final name anyway), his info was accurate. Or mostly. But since then Disney has decided to not go through with the project, even though Jay Rasulo still wants it badly.

Often things change at last minute. When last I heard (in the spring) about Stale Mountain's rehab, it was closing on 1/2/09 for 18 months and was getting a completely new (albeit likely same layout) track, new show scenes, rockets with onboard sound etc ... that has clearly changed. It doesn't mean my info was bad. At the time it was accurate, now it apparently isn't.

Al Lutz has often taken a lot of heat from critics, but his track record of breaking real stories is quite impressive for nothing more than a blogger.



Your thoughts don't tick me off. In fact, in most cases I think you're right on. WDW is a shell of what it was back in the 80's. I've made well over 40 trips to the World in my 33 years, plus some trips to DLR. It's been a magnificent flip flop between the two parks over the past 20 years. DLR is a rising star, and WDW, is flopping.

I have only one question.

Yeah. It is.

It is big and bloated. And it's size makes significant improvement overall a very dicey prospect, even in the best of times ... and I think we'd all agree that these aren't the best of times.

Improvement would require visionary leadership and WDW doesn't have that. It has 'how can we meet this load level at the resorts next quarter' and 'how is this going to affect my bonus' type leaders right now.


Why can't anyone use the multiquote tool around these parts? :hammer:

Because some of us don't have a clue how to use it ... and have tried without success and just feel it isn't worth our time.

Just saying ...
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Ah, the ever popular "Cheech and Chong" reference. Yes, tis but a pipe dream, but it is your love of the halflings weed that has dulled your senses. A virtual pipe dream that encapsolates only the pure at heart and the weak at knees.

I like the way you put things. ... the way you tug at my heartstrings with your posts.

By the way, IMO, most of your case is strong. Not necessarily feasible, but strong, none the less.

:king:

That's likely because I actually know a bit of what I am talking about ... maybe even a few bits.

Are you the Burger King?
(if so, it shouldn't have taken 10 minutes to get my Whopper last night when there was no one in the place!)
 

SirGoofy

Member
Improvement would require visionary leadership and WDW doesn't have that. It has 'how can we meet this load level at the resorts next quarter' and 'how is this going to affect my bonus' type leaders right now.

I wish I could vote for WDW Management.:brick:
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
Great, thoughtful post.

I will say that I still feel you're wrong about being able to hurt Disney by taking your money away. It won't work.

It didn't work when those hate-filled religious groups tried to boycott WDW because TWDC treated its gay CMs equally with its straight CMs in terms of benefits. That was a big national campaign.

Didn't make any difference, so I don't care how many individuals decide to keep away. Others will take their place.

We might have to agree to disagree on that one. Before we do, how about a little more discussion.

I should have added another sentence into my post (it was already long, so don't fault me for that). I don't think money is the sole recourse, I completely agree that we need to voice complaints when we have them. In the past year I have been to Main Street once and written two letters (now perhaps I could have pushed the issue further in each of these circumstances, and in the future, I will, but I digress...).

That said, I think the best recourse for most people here is to complain, both in person and in letter, and act with their wallets. I think the comparison to the religious groups is unfair (I say this without any inside knowledge, so the following is all qualified as "my opinion"). Even if Disney were harmed by those groups, I can't see the company backing down, because it is a matter of principle. If Disney acquiesces to the demands of one ideological group, that sets a precedent for them to do the same to others. The best recourse thus is to ignore it until it goes away.

This is a bit different. We wouldn't be protesting on the basis of ideology, but rather to the substance of the product they offer. It's one thing for a company to change its behavior due to consumer demand, it's totally different for the company to change its behavior for militant demands (while you may retort that the religious folks were potential consumers, so the two demands are analogous, but the demands they were making were outside the realm of consumers, and thus, are not the same).

Additionally, you discuss others taking the place of those who stay away. My point was not to stay away, my point was to spend less money while there. Now, I'll admit you have me on the example of dining--to a degree. This is because many restaurants are solidly booked, so my failing to make an ADR at one of those restaurants means nothing, someone else will take my place. This is not the case at all restaurants, however. If one takes their business from one of these restaurants that typically runs lower than capacity, that impacts Disney.

Same goes for not spending as much on merchandise. There is nothing finite about merchandise--Disney will make as much as they can sell, so the argument that someone else will buy the mug that I don't also falls flat.

Heck, I think the same goes with the Resorts and Parks (now I have expanded it to not going!), too. If the Resorts and Parks aren't filled to capacity, you can't make the argument that someone else will replace me. Since they aren't at capacity in the first place, that replacement could have been there at the same time.

I think the best way to go about impacting the company is by both voicing concerns and enumerating the ways in which you plan on changing/have changed your spending habits while at the park. Maybe management is savvy enough to determine changes in spending habits on their own, but my guess is that would take longer than just spelling it out for them.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I don't agree with that completely because well ... information has ... uhm ... filtered its way down to me in the past from sources on high. Actually, it still does. But not so much about WDW. More about WDI and projects around the world.

The thing is, though, information changes.

When Jim Hill 'broke' the news about 'Night Kingdom' (which was never going to be the final name anyway), his info was accurate. Or mostly. But since then Disney has decided to not go through with the project, even though Jay Rasulo still wants it badly.

Often things change at last minute. When last I heard (in the spring) about Stale Mountain's rehab, it was closing on 1/2/09 for 18 months and was getting a completely new (albeit likely same layout) track, new show scenes, rockets with onboard sound etc ... that has clearly changed. It doesn't mean my info was bad. At the time it was accurate, now it apparently isn't.

Al Lutz has often taken a lot of heat from critics, but his track record of breaking real stories is quite impressive for nothing more than a blogger.

And now a very significant addition to DAK seems to be precariously balanced. :cry:

The way it looks now, we'll be watching HP Land open without any competition.

Of course, like everything else, this could change at any moment.
 

Missing20K

Well-Known Member
The dustball does not get me as much as the black spots in the clear cover film. You can see them at about 10 O'clock about halfway out from the center of the film. They come and go in all scenes, and depending on the scene look more or less pronounced.

On the ocean shot they look almost like black birds circling.

Once you notice them, it's hard to ignore them.

-dave

I've ridden it once, and I instantly noticed the moment the film began. I've seen higher quality films at the local multiplex. I even remember remarking to my gf at the time, "why does the movie look so bad?" When you add that to the fact it is really a glorified motion simulator ala the one's that were in malls in the 90's and you have a C-Ticket ride at best. I will never understand some people's fanaticism for Soarin'. The coolest part of the ride is when they lift you towards the screen. Then you sit and watch a movie with some smells and a few, very slight movements that moderately match the motion on screen.

And I'm not sure why people can get mad at those of us who would like to see a better maintained park. Personally, I'm not asking for a new E-ticket every other year or some new unneeded celebration, or a brand new parade every 5 years. But dirty bathrooms, overflowing garbage cans, gum everywhere, paint chipping everywhere, and a small minority of CM's not seeming to care at all seriously detracts from the overall product. In my last visit, we experienced all of these numerous times. However, we also really enjoyed ourselves, had a CM do a room upgrade for free, loved Raglan Road, and had lots of fun on EE, MS, JC, HM, PoTC, KS, ToT, RnRC as well as others. There are still remnants of the past Disney that shine through, and some examples of more recent additions that have been done well.

But, we still came away with the overwhelming feeling that WDW is like a kid who needs to clean his room. Pick up after themselves, put their toys in the toy chest, put their clothes in their closet, etc. If we all can take pride in our jobs and homes, and keep those places clean, comfortable, and productive, why is it too much to ask Disney to do the same? :wave:
 

WildcatDen

Well-Known Member
IAre you the Burger King?

No but I am a big fan of Burger Chef. Ah, the works bar. That was the best.

Shall not the tender reed suffer in the wind. We all like sheep have gone astray and only by the musings of those who consider themselve muses, are we able to see past the dark curtain of doubt into the brightness of a crisp Autumn thread response.

As for the topic, those of us driven to stomach the barely mediocre condition of other theme park offerings still find WDW an oasis.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I've ridden it once, and I instantly noticed the moment the film began. I've seen higher quality films at the local multiplex. I even remember remarking to my gf at the time, "why does the movie look so bad?" When you add that to the fact it is really a glorified motion simulator ala the one's that were in malls in the 90's and you have a C-Ticket ride at best. I will never understand some people's fanaticism for Soarin'. The coolest part of the ride is when they lift you towards the screen. Then you sit and watch a movie with some smells and a few, very slight movements that moderately match the motion on screen.

And I'm not sure why people can get mad at those of us who would like to see a better maintained park. Personally, I'm not asking for a new E-ticket every other year or some new unneeded celebration, or a brand new parade every 5 years. But dirty bathrooms, overflowing garbage cans, gum everywhere, paint chipping everywhere, and a small minority of CM's not seeming to care at all seriously detracts from the overall product. In my last visit, we experienced all of these numerous times. However, we also really enjoyed ourselves, had a CM do a room upgrade for free, loved Raglan Road, and had lots of fun on EE, MS, JC, HM, PoTC, KS, ToT, RnRC as well as others. There are still remnants of the past Disney that shine through, and some examples of more recent additions that have been done well.

But, we still came away with the overwhelming feeling that WDW is like a kid who needs to clean his room. Pick up after themselves, put their toys in the toy chest, put their clothes in their closet, etc. If we all can take pride in our jobs and homes, and keep those places clean, comfortable, and productive, why is it too much to ask Disney to do the same? :wave:

Good post. I don't think any of us dislike WDW—I personally still prefer it to DL :)eek: I know)—but the only way WDW will make progress is to return to the creative spirit it had long ago. But let's be honest. Doesn't this problem really affect most of the WDC right now? Their execs need to understand that an entertainment company with roots in strong creativity cannot be run like "just another business." Eisner tried that when he got bored with creative risks and look what happened to him.

EDIT:
And would it kill the Adventureland/Frontierland area manager to make sure the gum is cleaned out of Splash Mountain every morning? Open the freakin' attraction a little later from the rest of Rope Drop if you have to! Gee whiz!
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
Good post. I don't think any of us dislike WDW—I personally still prefer it to DL :)eek: I know)—but the only way WDW will make progress is to return to the creative spirit it had long ago. But let's be honest. Doesn't this problem really affect most of the WDC right now? Their execs need to understand that an entertainment company with roots in strong creativity cannot be run like "just another business." Eisner tried that when he got bored with creative risks and look what happened to him.

EDIT:
And would it kill the Adventureland/Frontierland area manager to make sure the gum is cleaned out of Splash Mountain every morning? Open the freakin' attraction a little later from the rest of Rope Drop if you have to! Gee whiz!

Without having any inside information, I will speculate that the problem is people who are complacent, and only do what they need to scrape by, making only "safe" decisions because they don't want to risk losing their jobs.

This is exactly what happened where I used to work. There were things that needed to get done, but bureaucratic protocol was established for even the most everyday tasks. This handcuffed both creative and noncreative work, and it got to the point where I was spending more than half my day on email trying to get things "done" that I could have done myself in ten minutes. Nothing was getting done, because people were refusing to make decisions.

I found that acting unilaterally, and then "trying" to get retro-active approval, worked a lot better. Those above me would be a little upset that I didn't follow protocol, but since no one ever made any decisions, they could never make the decision to do anything about me not following protocol.

I don't know how this fits with the Walt Disney Company, just that I'm sure it's a similar situation. I'm not suggesting managers or individuals there should just act unilaterally, because from what I've heard, Disney takes its protocol pretty seriously.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
No but I am a big fan of Burger Chef. Ah, the works bar. That was the best.

Oh wow! I loved Burger Chef as a kid. That place was GREAT! I remember when our local one burned down and they never rebuilt.

I remember loving day trips from WDW to Ocala and Silver Springs because they had Burger Chef there.

You scare me.

Shall not the tender reed suffer in the wind. We all like sheep have gone astray and only by the musings of those who consider themselve muses, are we able to see past the dark curtain of doubt into the brightness of a crisp Autumn thread response.

As for the topic, those of us driven to stomach the barely mediocre condition of other theme park offerings still find WDW an oasis.

I only visit Disney, Busch and Universal parks. And the latter two compare quite well with Disney and in many cases they don't just equal Disney, but can surpass them.

The level of cleanliness and upkeep at Sea World blows away WDW.
The quality of Aquatica makes it THE water park to visit in Orlando if you only can visit one.
Attractions like SpiderMan, Men in Black, Cat and the Hat and Mummy are better than many Disney attractions by a wide margin.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Good post. I don't think any of us dislike WDW—I personally still prefer it to DL :)eek: I know)—but the only way WDW will make progress is to return to the creative spirit it had long ago. But let's be honest. Doesn't this problem really affect most of the WDC right now? Their execs need to understand that an entertainment company with roots in strong creativity cannot be run like "just another business." Eisner tried that when he got bored with creative risks and look what happened to him.

I won't take a shot at you for prefering WDW to DL as resorts, but please don't tell me you prefer DL to MK as parks. That one I can't get. I've been to four of five MK-style parks and the MK would be dead last if HKDL just had 3-4 more signature Disney attractions (which it will soon enough).

And I think it differs widely as far as the quality of execs as to the level of them appreciating the creative process (does that make sense?)

I will say that WDW has the worst park execs in the Disney chain and that's very unfortunate.

EDIT:
And would it kill the Adventureland/Frontierland area manager to make sure the gum is cleaned out of Splash Mountain every morning? Open the freakin' attraction a little later from the rest of Rope Drop if you have to! Gee whiz!

I didn't ride Splash on my recent visit, but tell the Adventureland manager that the gum on the bridge you pass under on PoC is also coated in gum and is very bad show!
 

WildcatDen

Well-Known Member
I only visit Disney, Busch and Universal parks. And the latter two compare quite well with Disney and in many cases they don't just equal Disney, but can surpass them.

I suppose my comparison is to the Paramount Parks now under Cedar Fair Management. I have been a pass holder at King's Island, off and on, for nearly half of my life. While the Thrill Rides themselves have been better than average (not a fan of Son of Beast or Tomb Raider (under a new name)) I shake my head with the overall condition of the parks. Used to be you could not walk in Rivertown or Coney Mall without seeing numerous "Litter Gitter's". In addition, these park employees would be dressed for their "themed area" in the park. Now, the place is in disrepair and you can not associate Rivertown with anything other than the decor of the Beast. Speaking of the Beast, I would put that up against any coaster in the world. Truly an original. One thing I do not understand is how King's Island has won the Gold Ticket as best Kid's area so many years in a row. While it is pretty decent, I miss the old charm of Hanna Barbara land. . .

So, when my wife and I decided to take our girls (KI Pass holders since birth) down to WDW in 2004, the initial impact was, dare I say, Magical. We visited again in 2007 and are trying to get plans under way for 2010 or 2011.

In short, a Stale WDW is still much Fresher than The Island of King's.
 

mcjaco

Well-Known Member
The level of cleanliness and upkeep at Sea World blows away WDW.
The quality of Aquatica makes it THE water park to visit in Orlando if you only can visit one.
Attractions like SpiderMan, Men in Black, Cat and the Hat and Mummy are better than many Disney attractions by a wide margin.

I'll agree with you on the cleanliness, my visit to BG Africa last month just left me "wowed." A really phenominal, clean park, with some fo the best coasters in the country. Mmmmm, Kumba.

I know everyone raves about USF's rides, but besides Dueling Dragons and Spiderman, I don't find anything that much better than Disney. Or at least something Disney could pull off and plus. Of course, that's the key. They need to start pulling it off again. Then again, we're talking about some of IOA's original rides, and they haven't added anything since they opened.

I didn't ride Splash on my recent visit, but tell the Adventureland manager that the gum on the bridge you pass under on PoC is also coated in gum and is very bad show!

Hee hee hee. :zipit:

I suppose my comparison is to the Paramount Parks now under Cedar Fair Management. I have been a pass holder at King's Island, off and on, for nearly half of my life. While the Thrill Rides themselves have been better than average (not a fan of Son of Beast or Tomb Raider (under a new name)) I shake my head with the overall condition of the parks. Used to be you could not walk in Rivertown or Coney Mall without seeing numerous "Litter Gitter's". In addition, these park employees would be dressed for their "themed area" in the park. Now, the place is in disrepair and you can not associate Rivertown with anything other than the decor of the Beast. Speaking of the Beast, I would put that up against any coaster in the world. Truly an original. One thing I do not understand is how King's Island has won the Gold Ticket as best Kid's area so many years in a row. While it is pretty decent, I miss the old charm of Hanna Barbara land. . .

In short, a Stale WDW is still much Fresher than The Island of King's.

Oh boy. For one, you're comparing apples to oranges. Secondly, King's Island is one of the worst parks, and it's been even worst since Cedar Fair took over. If I were you, I wouldn't put Beast up against any coaster out there. You've got at least three woodies in your area that blow it out of the water (Voyager, Kentucky Rumbler, and if you travel a bit Cornball Express).
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I won't take a shot at you for prefering WDW to DL as resorts, but please don't tell me you prefer DL to MK as parks. That one I can't get. I've been to four of five MK-style parks and the MK would be dead last if HKDL just had 3-4 more signature Disney attractions (which it will soon enough).

And I think it differs widely as far as the quality of execs as to the level of them appreciating the creative process (does that make sense?)

I will say that WDW has the worst park execs in the Disney chain and that's very unfortunate.



I didn't ride Splash on my recent visit, but tell the Adventureland manager that the gum on the bridge you pass under on PoC is also coated in gum and is very bad show!

WDW versus the DLR, not MK versus DL. You may breathe. :lol:

The presidents of DAK and DHS are decent (the DHS one admittedly doesn't have much to work with). Epcot's new president is great.

Nearly all complaints have been directed at the MK, which is supposed to be the WDC's flagship park world wide.

Questions for Phil Holmes: Why did it take nearly 40 years for the MK's facades to get serious refurbs? Why will it take nearly 20 years for the MK to get a new E-ticket? Why is the park still the last one to get significant upgrades when DL and TDL are considerably more crowded throughout the year? Why is a temporary land still masquerading as a real land when the other major MK parks have REAL Toontowns? Why are Fantasyland's facades still themed to a medieval fair when the weather in DLP doesn't cause problems? Why do all the Tomorrowland queues look like gremlins attacked the walls and floors? Why has the MK lost three popular attractions with no suitable replacements? Why is the HM the only recent refurb to be properly done? Why do all the stores in Frontierland sell pins and almost nothing else?

I love the MK, and I'm not jaded to the magic. As a very optimistic person, I don't look for problems. These are obvious flaws that any repeat customer can't miss. I'm ready for the MK to inspire praise from the NY Times again!
 

trr1

Well-Known Member
From what i am reading in this post is that WDW is dirty. If that is the case maybe we should look at where the gum and trash is comming from and that would be from guest who are pigs!! who are spitting gum on the ground or putting it under railings and leaving trash on tables or just throwing it on the ground . sure you could say that the cast members are not doing a very good job but as guest are we? i mean if you go to someone's house do you put gum under their railings or just drop trash on the floor? i dont think so. If we claim to like wdw or any disney park maybe we should be cleaner or pick up a piece of trash. i alway try to leave a place a litttle better than when i found it whether its a park , the mall or just walking down the street.
 

HDS

Well-Known Member
Why do all the stores in Frontierland sell pins and almost nothing else?
Well something I gave some thought about as well. Could be many reasons, one being that the Western style isnt in style. What kids wears a skin cap anymore? Now adults may could get some shops there, that would be a good place to put things like you would find at a old time shoppe but it isnt just Fonteirland, its every land in the MK. My fav shop for the most part is Mouse Gear in Epcot and a few shops on Main Street.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
From what i am reading in this post is that WDW is dirty. If that is the case maybe we should look at where the gum and trash is comming from and that would be from guest who are pigs!! who are spitting gum on the ground or putting it under railings and leaving trash on tables or just throwing it on the ground . sure you could say that the cast members are not doing a very good job but as guest are we? i mean if you go to someone's house do you put gum under their railings or just drop trash on the floor? i dont think so. If we claim to like wdw or any disney park maybe we should be cleaner or pick up a piece of trash. i alway try to leave a place a litttle better than when i found it whether its a park , the mall or just walking down the street.

It takes more than a day for the gum to pile up on Splash and PotC, and it's Disney's job to clean it.

People are dirty though, and it's mostly cheerleaders and tour groups leaving all the gum.

Well something I gave some thought about as well. Could be many reasons, one being that the Western style isnt in style. What kids wheres a skin cap anymore? Now adults may could get some shops there, that would be a good place to put things like you would find at a old time shoppe but it isnt just Fonteirland, its every land in the MK. My fav shop for the most part is Mouse Gear in Epcot and a few shops on Main Street.

Sorry, that's not a good enough reason for selling ONLY pins. :)
 

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