Four Parks: One Stale World?

[Missing20K]

From what i am reading in this post is that WDW is dirty. If that is the case maybe we should look at where the gum and trash is comming from and that would be from guest who are pigs!! who are spitting gum on the ground or putting it under railings and leaving trash on tables or just throwing it on the ground . sure you could say that the cast members are not doing a very good job but as guest are we? i mean if you go to someone's house do you put gum under their railings or just drop trash on the floor? i dont think so. If we claim to like wdw or any disney park maybe we should be cleaner or pick up a piece of trash. i alway try to leave a place a litttle better than when i found it whether its a park , the mall or just walking down the street.

How am I supposed to police the litterers and gum tossers? And more importantly should I have to police them? I have picked up a piece of trash or two while in both the real world and Disney, but should I have to? I do it because, like you, I desire to leave places better than when I got there. However, should I, or any guest, be expected to clean up after other guests? If I am doing my best to be polite, courteous, and clean, is it my fault that other guests are not? Should I also reprimand or correct unruly children because their parents won't? I'm not following your logic in respect to each individual patron. Now if Disney started promoting "Please leave Mickey's house in better shape than you found it" then I feel you could complain that we, as guests, are not doing our part. Obviously, some patrons do not feel they need to pick up after themselves, and that is unfortunate, but I don't see how blaming the rest of the guests would accomplish anything.

 

[trr1]

How am I supposed to police the litterers and gum tossers? And more importantly should I have to police them? I have picked up a piece of trash or two while in both the real world and Disney, but should I have to? I do it because, like you, I desire to leave places better than when I got there. However, should I, or any guest, be expected to clean up after other guests? If I am doing my best to be polite, courteous, and clean, is it my fault that other guests are not? Should I also reprimand or correct unruly children because their parents won't? I'm not following your logic in respect to each individual patron. Now if Disney started promoting "Please leave Mickey's house in better shape than you found it" then I feel you could complain that we, as guests, are not doing our part. Obviously, some patrons do not feel they need to pick up after themselves, and that is unfortunate, but I don't see how blaming the rest of the guests would accomplish anything.

I am glad that you like myself feel that we should leave a place better than what we found it and no guest should be expected to clean up after other guest and no you Shouldn't reprimand or correct unruly children because their parents won't thats supposed to be their responsability. the only people i am blaming are those who dont pick up after themselves

 

[WDW1974]

WDW versus the DLR, not MK versus DL. You may breathe. :lol:

OK ... you just got all your respect back!

The presidents of DAK and DHS are decent (the DHS one admittedly doesn't have much to work with). Epcot's new president is great.

I have actually heard that DAK ops have been a nightmare since Val took over for Beth. And I did witness some things that lead me to believe that is true myself.

Rilous seems to be a nice man. I have met him a few times. But he also is a guy who was running food and beverage at a Cleveland hotel (I want to say Renaissance) a decade ago and never had park ops experience before getting this gig. I know you have to start somewhere, but ...

And Jim MacPhee is wonderful. I wish he had more power. He loves his park and you can tell. But the power is above him. i know there are a lot of things he has pushed for that would really improve the guest experience and he is being shot down consistently by morons who don't get it.

Nearly all complaints have been directed at the MK, which is supposed to be the WDC's flagship park world wide.

Questions for Phil Holmes: Why did it take nearly 40 years for the MK's facades to get serious refurbs? Why will it take nearly 20 years for the MK to get a new E-ticket? Why is the park still the last one to get significant upgrades when DL and TDL are considerably more crowded throughout the year? Why is a temporary land still masquerading as a real land when the other major MK parks have REAL Toontowns? Why are Fantasyland's facades still themed to a medieval fair when the weather in DLP doesn't cause problems? Why do all the Tomorrowland queues look like gremlins attacked the walls and floors? Why has the MK lost three popular attractions with no suitable replacements? Why is the HM the only recent refurb to be properly done? Why do all the stores in Frontierland sell pins and almost nothing else?

I love the MK, and I'm not jaded to the magic. As a very optimistic person, I don't look for problems. These are obvious flaws that any repeat customer can't miss. I'm ready for the MK to inspire praise from the NY Times again!

I have been saying all of the above for years now. Phil is living off the money that park pulls in based on marketing its great past and not its mediocre present. How he keeps his job isn't a mystery even if it should be. He keeps hitting and surpassing his numbers.

But you really hit on things that drive me nuts ... from T-Land's filthy decaying queues to having a Frontierland Trading Post that has become the 764th pin shop on property.

It does make me feel good, however, to know that Phil is a regular reader of mine!:wave:

 

[WDW1974]

I am glad that you like myself feel that we should leave a place better than what we found it and no guest should be expected to clean up after other guest and no you Shouldn't reprimand or correct unruly children because their parents won't thats supposed to be their responsability. the only people i am blaming are those who dont pick up after themselves

People are pigs. That isn't news. They always have been. Hell, littering was in vogue when WDW opened ... anyone remember Iron Eyes Cody commercials with the tear streaming down his cheek?

It's Disney's job to anticipate guests behavior (as abhorent as it may be) and take measures to mitigate it as soon as it happens if not before it happens (surfaces that can't be written on and carved into for example).

Walt Disney himself knew this in the 1950s. If you leave one piece of trash on the ground it sends an unspoken message that it is OK to do likewise.

That's why you can't cut custodial budgets and shifts (memo to management!)

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

From what i am reading in this post is that WDW is dirty. If that is the case maybe we should look at where the gum and trash is comming from and that would be from guest who are pigs!! who are spitting gum on the ground or putting it under railings and leaving trash on tables or just throwing it on the ground . sure you could say that the cast members are not doing a very good job but as guest are we? i mean if you go to someone's house do you put gum under their railings or just drop trash on the floor? i dont think so. If we claim to like wdw or any disney park maybe we should be cleaner or pick up a piece of trash. i alway try to leave a place a litttle better than when i found it whether its a park , the mall or just walking down the street.

I would agree, its shocking that some guests are using the litter bins to such an extent that they over flow, and continue to use them for hours on end despite being full. Cant these people not just hold onto their waste or walk across the park and use another non full bin. Disney is a business, if cutting down on custodial so it can add more to the bottom line, the least we can do is support them by not using the bins as much

 

[sleepybear]

I also think you 'get' where I am coming from on staleness ... it doesn't just mean adding new attractions ... it means clean, well-maintained parks with nice flowers and trees and sidewalks that are clean and not missing chunks of concrete ... and it means having CMs who are happy (or can fake it well) about making magical experiences for guests ... it means the whole package. It doesn't simply mean the MK is stale because it has parades from 1991 and 2001 still chugging along or because no new major attraction has been built since 1992. Staleness reflects the total package and I think so many here are completely missing what I am saying or they just don't care ... they go to WDW to ride Space Mountain 16 times in one day ... that type of fanboy/gal.

I think we all now get what you mean by staleness. And it's clear you know a lot and care a lot about WDW and the Disney brand in general. But one can also make the argument that staleness is a state of mind -- if you only look for flaws, that's all you'll see.

On my last visit, I didn't see overflowing trash cans and missing chunks of concrete and surly CMs. I'm sure all were present, but I wasn't looking for them. And if I had seen them, yes, it would have bugged me, but not for very long.

Instead, I was riding Big Thunder Mountain and spotting yet another detail that I missed all the previous times I rode it and thinking about the time my late grandfather lost his sunglasses on one particularly wicked turn.

I was eating dinner at Jiko and marveling that no matter how many times I've had the kalamata flatbread, the taste still blows me away.

I was thanking the three CMs in the shop on Main Street who kindly helped me figure out the battery situation in my brand new camera.

I was sipping a beer in World Showcase while thinking about the time my family waited out a torrential downpour in the bathrooms in the United Kingdom.

I was riding the Tower of Terror, remembering how terrified my cousins and I were the first time we went on it and how it still makes me jittery 14 years later.

I was posing for a photo with Pluto and thinking to myself that I should meet more characters, just for fun.

I was making new Disney memories while fondly recalling old ones. And that's what WDW means to me. Not the trash cans. Or the management. Or the discarded gum. Or the fact that the hopping Brer Rabbit wasn't working on Splash Mountain. That doesn't mean I don't care about the state of WDW. I do. But there's still an overwhelming lot of good things there, and that's what I choose to focus on.

 

[tirian]

Rilous seems to be a nice man. I have met him a few times. But he also is a guy who was running food and beverage at a Cleveland hotel (I want to say Renaissance) a decade ago and never had park ops experience before getting this gig. I know you have to start somewhere, but ...

And Jim MacPhee is wonderful. I wish he had more power. He loves his park and you can tell. But the power is above him. i know there are a lot of things he has pushed for that would really improve the guest experience and he is being shot down consistently by morons who don't get it.

Epcot and DHS are also the most consistently clean and well-maintained parks.

I have been saying all of the above for years now. Phil is living off the money that park pulls in based on marketing its great past and not its mediocre present. How he keeps his job isn't a mystery even if it should be. He keeps hitting and surpassing his numbers.

But you really hit on things that drive me nuts ... from T-Land's filthy decaying queues to having a Frontierland Trading Post that has become the 764th pin shop on property.

It does make me feel good, however, to know that Phil is a regular reader of mine!:wave:

In a way, I feel bad pointing the finger exclusively at Phil, because I know he has a lot on his shoulders as the president of the number 1 theme park on earth. He has numbers to make, suits to please, blah, blah, blah. As a former MK CP, I know he sincerely tries to make it a good place to work, too.

But I refuse to believe that the MK's current cleanliness, maintenance, and operations issues are unavoidable.

Unlike some other Internet bloggers, I don't go to the parks looking for problems. When I set foot inside the MK, I'm there to forget the "real world" and have fun. Yet every problem we have discussed is a glaringly obvious slap in the face while we're high on Dole Whips and Mickey Ice Cream bars.

 

[tirian]

I was making new Disney memories while fondly recalling old ones. And that's what WDW means to me. Not the trash cans. Or the management. Or the discarded gum. Or the fact that the hopping Brer Rabbit wasn't working on Splash Mountain. That doesn't mean I don't care about the state of WDW. I do. But there's still an overwhelming lot of good things there, and that's what I choose to focus on.

That's great for Guests, but that's also not a good way to run a business. Not to be cliché, but Walt was infamous* for constantly improving his parks. He wasn't a pessimistic old man; he was a realist that knew things would always have challenges.

I choose to focus on good things too, but it's impossible not to notice hundreds of pieces of gum slapped throughout Splash Mt, or the Buzz Lightyear queue that is ALWAYS missing ceiling tiles and paint, or the Tomorrowland/Fantasyland corrider that is clean only when the park first opens.

*Yes, I mean "infamous," not "famous." DL ops managers dreaded Walt's walks.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Epcot and DHS are also the most consistently clean and well-maintained parks.




In a way, I feel bad pointing the finger exclusively at Phil, because I know he has a lot on his shoulders as the president of the number 1 theme park on earth. He has numbers to make, suits to please, blah, blah, blah. As a former MK CP, I know he sincerely tries to make it a good place to work, too.

But I refuse to believe that the MK's current cleanliness, maintenance, and operations issues are unavoidable.

Unlike some other Internet bloggers, I don't go to the parks looking for problems. When I set foot inside the MK, I'm there to forget the "real world" and have fun. Yet every problem we have discussed is a glaringly obvious slap in the face while we're high on Dole Whips and Mickey Ice Cream bars.

Bolded for truth. I love Walt Disney World....I just think it could be better and problems could be fixed.


And the whole high on Dole whips...Yeah.:lookaroun:lol:

 

[DisneyMusician2]

I know this sounds horribly old fashinoed, but has anyone whondered about sending a letter? Like a good, old-fasioned letter from all of us here at wdwmagic? Maybe with a list of digital signatures?

I know it seems like it won't do anything, but then again, maybe it is worth a try just to put the message out there. We certainly have made enough ponts here to fill a well-worded response to Disney management.

People keep hoping they will come to us, read these boards and hear our suggestions. Perhaps we would be better off taking suggestions to them.

Maybe its dumb. Maybe not. Just a thought.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I know this sounds horribly old fashinoed, but has anyone whondered about sending a letter? Like a good, old-fasioned letter from all of us here at wdwmagic?

Let-ter? Does not compute.... Get with the times, man. Today's world is full of carphones and laserdiscs!

No it's by no means a dumb idea, but I am skeptical that even something that takes that much effort would change any high-ups minds.

 

[WDWFigment]

In a way, I feel bad pointing the finger exclusively at Phil, because I know he has a lot on his shoulders as the president of the number 1 theme park on earth. He has numbers to make, suits to please, blah, blah, blah. As a former MK CP, I know he sincerely tries to make it a good place to work, too.

I understand where you're coming from, but that's the price he pays for his position and salary. If he can't juggle it all, perhaps he should be replaced. To me, no one should get a pass for trying.

I mean the above as a general philosophy, not specifically regarding Phil Holmes. I am not at all familiar with his work, or who, exactly, is not doing their job correctly.

 

[justducky78]

I agree with djkidkaz -- most people visit don't visit as often as the people on this board. Of course, WDW loves repeat business but their focus is to get as much $$ out of guests while they are ON property, while at the same time giving them a memorable vacation.

We haven't visited since 2007 but have been to WDW regularly and don't feel it's a "stale world" at all. I think they've done a good job of adding/updating attractions and keeping things fresh.

Sorry, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't agree with OP!

 

[tirian]

I understand where you're coming from, but that's the price he pays for his position and salary. If he can't juggle it all, perhaps he should be replaced. To me, no one should get a pass for trying.

I agree completely, which is why I said:

But I refuse to believe that the MK's current cleanliness, maintenance, and operations issues are unavoidable.

We haven't visited since 2007 but have been to WDW regularly and don't feel it's a "stale world" at all. I think they've done a good job of adding/updating attractions and keeping things fresh.

Sorry, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't agree with OP!

The majority of us are talking about cleanliness and maintenance. Those are hard facts that have nothing to do with opinion.

 

[CBOMB]

I would agree, its shocking that some guests are using the litter bins to such an extent that they over flow, and continue to use them for hours on end despite being full. Cant these people not just hold onto their waste or walk across the park and use another non full bin. Disney is a business, if cutting down on custodial so it can add more to the bottom line, the least we can do is support them by not using the bins as much

A very excellent point.

I think we all now get what you mean by staleness. And it's clear you know a lot and care a lot about WDW and the Disney brand in general. But one can also make the argument that staleness is a state of mind -- if you only look for flaws, that's all you'll see.

On my last visit, I didn't see overflowing trash cans and missing chunks of concrete and surly CMs. I'm sure all were present, but I wasn't looking for them. And if I had seen them, yes, it would have bugged me, but not for very long.

Instead, I was riding Big Thunder Mountain and spotting yet another detail that I missed all the previous times I rode it and thinking about the time my late grandfather lost his sunglasses on one particularly wicked turn.

I was eating dinner at Jiko and marveling that no matter how many times I've had the kalamata flatbread, the taste still blows me away.

I was thanking the three CMs in the shop on Main Street who kindly helped me figure out the battery situation in my brand new camera.

I was sipping a beer in World Showcase while thinking about the time my family waited out a torrential downpour in the bathrooms in the United Kingdom.

I was riding the Tower of Terror, remembering how terrified my cousins and I were the first time we went on it and how it still makes me jittery 14 years later.

I was posing for a photo with Pluto and thinking to myself that I should meet more characters, just for fun.

I was making new Disney memories while fondly recalling old ones. And that's what WDW means to me. Not the trash cans. Or the management. Or the discarded gum. Or the fact that the hopping Brer Rabbit wasn't working on Splash Mountain. That doesn't mean I don't care about the state of WDW. I do. But there's still an overwhelming lot of good things there, and that's what I choose to focus on.

I understand your feelings, and I agree there are a hugh amount of good things going on at WDW. My question for you though is how long can we love the good things while ignoring the short comings. How long can we ignore the drop in standards of cleanliness, and maintainence, and scaling back of entertainment.. Do we ignore it long enough to where it completely destroys the magic, and the beauty of the Parks?

 

[trr1]

I know this sounds horribly old fashinoed, but has anyone whondered about sending a letter? Like a good, old-fasioned letter from all of us here at wdwmagic? Maybe with a list of digital signatures?

I know it seems like it won't do anything, but then again, maybe it is worth a try just to put the message out there. We certainly have made enough ponts here to fill a well-worded response to Disney management.

People keep hoping they will come to us, read these boards and hear our suggestions. Perhaps we would be better off taking suggestions to them.

Maybe its dumb. Maybe not. Just a thought.

do you have a adddress for sending these thing you call letters?

 

[sleepybear]

I choose to focus on good things too, but it's impossible not to notice hundreds of pieces of gum slapped throughout Splash Mt, or the Buzz Lightyear queue that is ALWAYS missing ceiling tiles and paint, or the Tomorrowland/Fantasyland corrider that is clean only when the park first opens.

I understand your feelings, and I agree there are a hugh amount of good things going on at WDW. My question for you though is how long can we love the good things while ignoring the short comings. How long can we ignore the drop in standards of cleanliness, and maintainence, and scaling back of entertainment.. Do we ignore it long enough to where it completely destroys the magic, and the beauty of the Parks?

That's a good question. And you shouldn't ignore it. If you notice a decline in standards that's so severe it ruins your experience there, by all means, notify Disney. I would if I did. But I haven't. Not yet, anyway.

I'm not a Disney apologist. Lord knows there's a lot they do that's wrong. (Tinkerbell the Movie, anyone?) But I haven't noticed much of a decline in cleanliness or upkeep. I honestly can't recall seeing an overflowing trash can or the missing ceiling tiles at Buzz Lightyear. I'm sure they exist. I've probably seen them. They just don't register because I'm too wrapped up in enjoying the experience of being there. Everyone is different. We all notice different things and are bothered by different things. But if I did see something that annoyed me to the extent that it affected my experience there, I'd notify a cast member or write Disney a letter.

 

[CBOMB]

I don't go to WDW to nitpick them. I've spent a considerable amount of money to go, and enjoy myself. However I can't help but notice an overall decline in some things. Things like the landscaping. Everything use to be so pristine. Shrubs were perfectly manicured, not nearly as much now. I just can't help, but notice those things. There was a much larger, and varied selection of food at the Parks, and Resorts. I have definetly noticed a decline in quality, quanity, and choice across the board. Overall maintainence of the parks has definetly been declining. Major attractions like EE or SM have problems with AA's that go for months without attention. Cleanliness has really gone downhill in my opinion. Have you been through the queue of Buzz Lightyear. You never use to see or smell a dirty bathroom. The sidewalks use to gleam. Yes WDW is so much better than so many other places I think sometimes we make ourselves overlook some of this. Even when we know Disney set an extremely high standard for themselves, and now are failing to live up to that standard. I know they can do better, because they have in the past.

 

[WDW1974]

A very excellent point.

I understand your feelings, and I agree there are a hugh amount of good things going on at WDW. My question for you though is how long can we love the good things while ignoring the short comings. How long can we ignore the drop in standards of cleanliness, and maintainence, and scaling back of entertainment.. Do we ignore it long enough to where it completely destroys the magic, and the beauty of the Parks?

I too agree with sleepybear's post. And I could list a long number of items that I took great pleasure in at WDW in October.

But I don't feel that serves any purpose to me in my limited time here. If it isn't obvious that we all love WDW, then I am not sure what the purpose of this site is.

So when I spend valuable time that I won't likely be getting back at the end of my life posting here (or elsewhere) I choose to use it to stimulate discussion on things that I feel strongly need to have light shined on them.

I realize it isn't the popular view (I've posted elsewhere and gone through the same friendly 'why don't you just stay home?' comments) ... but my comments must have some resonance in we're headed toward 400 posts on this thread as I type this.

If there wasn't substance to what I am saying, this thing would have died out after a couple of dozen posts (at most).

So ... I'm not the type of guy who is going to post about how great it was walking around World Showcase eating and drinking or how I was amazed at all the wildlife I saw at DAK or how much I loved my umteenth rides of Mansion and PoC and Peter Pan or how great it was to have an ice cream sundae while looking at Cindy's Castle. Sorry, even though all of the above did happen, it's not me.

I just don't have the time for it ... or the patience to wait for Disney's 'leadership' team to get it and go back to doing the things the right way.

So ... bluntly ... get used to it. I'm not going anywhere and I'm not changing my style.

 

[Phonedave]

do you have a adddress for sending these thing you call letters?

I was under the impression that Disney is no longer accepting letters. They are returned, unopened, to the sender. I was told it was inacted to avoid lawsuits.

Someone sends a lettere that says "you should put more garbage cans on Main Street". This person visits WDW and sees more cans, and says "hey, thats my idea" and now sues for Disney implimenting his idea. Of course the case has no merit, but lawyers and court costs add up.

Of course this may all be a giant hoax/rumor for all I know.

-dave