Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

You dsigned that? When I first saw that at LP I was in awe. VERY, very cool.


Have you rode the Monters Inc ride at TDL? I heard it was a great que but the ride was okay. What do you think of it?

Have not been on it. Last visit to TDR was years ago. "Queen of Hearts" was the second choice idea. Jon Georges and the team wanted Alice and at first I was against it because it isn't one of the more popular films, but when you see it for it's visual style, music, Tea party, and the Tim Burton-esque world that it is, it was a great choice. We were gonna do this big "Dumbo's Big Top Circus" with the ride inside the center ring of the Restaurant. You'd eat in the "stands" facing the ride and on the Casey Jr train cars and cages, etc. like a Circus. It was a way to get the 300 seats in there in a way that does not come off like a mess hall. We'd have the calliope music scored to the ride, moving spotlights, really a great show (and weatherized the ride too). I really pushed for that, but they wouldn't go for it so we did the Banquet Hall idea instead. I'm really happy with how it turned out and the guests seem to love it.

 

[heartodisney]

It is most similar to the WDW HM although there have been some minor enhancements. For one, the elevators don't go down. I have not seen it since I was involved in TDL which was a decade ago. To me, the biggest issue is not the show itself, but it's location in Fantasyland. We had to add a 300 seat restaurant between it and IASW and the problem is how to bridge those two very different worlds. So usually plant material is what you use for transitions and so we did the "Queen of Hearts Banquet Hall" as a hedgemaze in forced perspective on the roof. Tony taught me not to be afraid of doing strange stuff like that, you just have to know what you're doing and be careful not to blow the illusion. The result is that you are never conscious of any architecture, but rather a castle wall containing lots of "hedges" leading to a distant castle. That makes for a very simple and green transition between the two.

Here's more with pictures.
http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID503130.asp

Thank you for this wonderful answer! I did forget to ask if you had certain pics, I had seen some from someones visit to TDL and it was so VERY different, but I also did not know that the resturant had also been incorporated next to this. Thier version of HM was to me more...gothic...and even ...more DETAILED! (as if WDW's version is not!) I very much thank you again for your info..as always that I have seen on this thread...you are so wonderful to answer any and all questions! :wave:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thank you for this wonderful answer! I did forget to ask if you had certain pics, I had seen some from someones visit to TDL and it was so VERY different, but I also did not know that the resturant had also been incorporated next to this. Thier version of HM was to me more...gothic...and even ...more DETAILED! (as if WDW's version is not!) I very much thank you again for your info..as always that I have seen on this thread...you are so wonderful to answer any and all questions! :wave:

There was an enhancement to the TDL Mansion back in the early 90's where a new entrance with big griffins was added and a few special effects in the library books scene. Minor stuff. TDL in general has lots of detail and the exterior of that attraction (WDW gothic) is well aged with lots of detail too.

 

[ttalovebug]

It is most similar to the WDW HM although there have been some minor enhancements. For one, the elevators don't go down. I have not seen it since I was involved in TDL which was a decade ago. To me, the biggest issue is not the show itself, but it's location in Fantasyland. We had to add a 300 seat restaurant between it and IASW and the problem is how to bridge those two very different worlds. So usually plant material is what you use for transitions and so we did the "Queen of Hearts Banquet Hall" as a hedgemaze in forced perspective on the roof. Tony taught me not to be afraid of doing strange stuff like that, you just have to know what you're doing and be careful not to blow the illusion. The result is that you are never conscious of any architecture, but rather a castle wall containing lots of "hedges" leading to a distant castle. That makes for a very simple and green transition between the two.

Here's more with pictures.
http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID503130.asp

WOW! I have to go TDL one day........

 

[PalisadesPkteer]

Hi Eddie,

Are you involved in any of these "small projects" that EPCOT may be getting in the near futrue? I hope so.......

Also, I spoke to a man with the name of either Keith or Keven I think who was involved with the Chester Hester Dinorama area of AK on the Bus when on vacation last year stating the reason he heard that EPCOT lost the Tapestry of Nations/Dreams parade was the people on stilts were too vunerable to lightning and/or maybe back problems with performers who had the giant puppets. Any idea on what happened ??

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hi Eddie,

Are you involved in any of these "small projects" that EPCOT may be getting in the near futrue? I hope so.......

Also, I spoke to a man with the name of either Keith or Keven I think who was involved with the Chester Hester Dinorama area of AK on the Bus when on vacation last year stating the reason he heard that EPCOT lost the Tapestry of Nations/Dreams parade was the people on stilts were too vunerable to lightning and/or maybe back problems with performers who had the giant puppets. Any idea on what happened ??

Sorry. I am no longer involved with WDI or Disney as I quit ten years ago (Sept 9th will be the anniversary!). Today, I'm busy running a design studio (www.sottostudios.com) and a popular LA Restaurant (www.riverarestaurant.com). I wonder how they "found out" that stilts attract lightning?

 

[CBOMB]

All I can say is, "there goes the neighborhood!". Thank you for the kind words and what you saw in that video is the result of many many passionate Imagineers. When I see it I'm reminded of our team of super talents that put up with my obsessive nature and came through for all of us. Some names you may never read about but deserve mentioning and so much more.

Asst Art Directors- Eddie Johnson (started at WED in model shop when walt was alive and can build anything. Invaluable on trains and vehicles), Susan Cowan (worked installation and helped me with staging props and dressings) and Deb Rager (led exhibit design for the Liberty and Discovery Arcades).

Prop Buyer Conradine Holtz. She found collections of San Francisco art and Cable Car memorabilia for our SF themed Cable Car bakery. It is an antique show of the highest order along with the funky Camera shop.

Sandy Mullally, was our lead interior designer with Juan Delgado and Kim Minichello in France (Sandy worked on the film "Camelot"). FYI. Every drapery was custom selected, each cord and tassle has matching custom thread colors. We had an assembly line process on all the stained glass too. I would draw the stained glass lead work and Maureen Johnson and Sparky Parker did the glass selections and that's how we determined color. It was a team effort.

Katie Olsen and I worked on the facade color, her husband John saw to it we had the scribed bricks and faux stone on the facades just perfect. Ron Esposito was the field exterior art director for aging and scenic finish.

Tom Yorke and Louis Lemoine hand lettered designs for much of Main Street as we wanted it to feel handmade. No computer fonts! Tom was our Rail buff and kept me honest with history on the vehicles and trains.

Jim Michaelson, a super talent responsible for those amazing DL Stream Train attraction posters and the Discovery Arcade City Posters. We had worked together at Landmark Entertainment in the past. (He started by doing album covers for the Jefferson Airplane, Crosby Stills and Nash, and Nixon's victorian inspired campaign poster! http://www.flickr.com/photos/mindpollution/322758321/.)

There are way more to mention but one designer Les Gobruggie was in his 80's and even moved to France for us. He was a set designer from WB and did the most Beautiful detail drawings for the Gazebo and the Town Square East. He took my sketches and renderings and turned them into something amazing and that's what you see out there. It was Les that made that "gingerbread" fit to eat. His name is on the WWII studio memorial on the Warner Bros. Lot.

So many more that deserve mentioning, but that is just a few. I just wanted to give you a small sense of how big the team can be and that is only the top level and some of the art department! There is production, engineering, show writing, estimating, production (which is huge), audio, lighting, graphics, architecture, legal (you have to get the rights or legal clearance to every name on every window or prop!) and that's all inside of WDI! Then there are the operations folks that get assigned for you to meet and negotiate with. You can imagine how many meetings you are in and you are still expected to design something by the end of the day!

Kind of mind boggling when you think there were even more people involved in the design work. It's kind of like looking at the credits for a motion picture.

While I'm sure it is rewarding working with so many talented people, I would imagine being the team leader could have some very trying moments. I could only imagine how many clashing opinions could arise from so many great artist in their field.

How many people were directly involved in your designing of Rivera?

 

[CBOMB]

You need to raise Doom and Gloomers Salaries then...:lookaroun:lol:

He hasn't given me a raise in three years!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

How many people were directly involved in your designing of Rivera?

Myself, assisted by Deb Gregory for the Interiors for design. Then we had an architect and a kitchen design company that did all the functional stuff. We had a lighting design company consult as well. Everything was decided in concert with the Chef John Sedlar as his name was on the door. Very small team by comparison.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

While I'm sure it is rewarding working with so many talented people, I would imagine being the team leader could have some very trying moments. I could only imagine how many clashing opinions could arise from so many great artist in their field.

You do, that's for sure. I must say that WDI is a pretty professional outfit, so in as much as I would welcome or listen to other points of view, for the most part, once I made a final decision, the team usually just goes with it and we move on. Team members that don;t support the team concept are usually disgruntled and then eventually fall in or move off the team. Teams are expensive and mutiny is even more expensive, so the company as a whole supports the pecking order concept as it gets things done.

 

[wdwmagic]

All I can say is I can't wait to again experience your team's amazing work/passion/art at DLP next month!

To all of the MK-lovers who haven't been there ... they need to save their Disney Dollars and go!

Yep its a stunner all round. It really bugs me when people talk about DLP being a failure etc when they really have no idea how incredibly well it was made, and in just it's first year, it became the most visited tourist attarction in all of Europe - and there's a lot of competition!

I jsut wish they hadn't recently butchered Space Mountain in Paris - the original DLP version was so well done.

 

[CBOMB]

Yep its a stunner all round. It really bugs me when people talk about DLP being a failure etc when they really have no idea how incredibly well it was made, and in just it's first year, it became the most visited tourist attarction in all of Europe - and there's a lot of competition!

I jsut wish they hadn't recently butchered Space Mountain in Paris - the original DLP version was so well done.

I believe many folks would say that the original Space Mountain was what led to Disneyland Paris's first profitable year.

I don't think anyone has ever said DLP isn't a beautiful park. Personally I, and I'm sure a lot of other people, think it is the most stunning of any of the Disneyland styled parks.

I think DLP began getting a less than favorable reputation early on, when so many prominent French figures were critical of it. As well as the problems that existed with the labour unions. Also I feel they failed to address the European culture enough in the beginning. Might as well throw in the name changes to the park as well. In '02 the Walt Disney Studios Park opened to less than stellar reviews. You couple that with the fact that it took a couple of years for DLP to turn a profit, plus no profit in '03, '04, and '05, and you get a perception of failure.

I believe today they are setting record attendance, and still turning a great profit. It still is an absolutely beautiful Park. In part to Eddie Sotto, and as a whole to all those that had a hand in designing, and executing it's construction. However, to some it will always be considered a failure because of it's struggles early on to make money.

Profitability, especially in the early stages, is not the best judge of quality in anything. Unfortunately in todays society it seems to be the dominating factor.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As detail does get whittled away as the place evolves to meet it's audience, you try to embed as much richness and story as you can. I remember one day Tom Morris (Fantasyland Designer) and I were out in the French Countryside together looking at the colorful French tile roofs. He was trying to decide which colors to use and how to make the patterns just perfect. I was complaining about how much time it was taking even on the weekends to redline or redraw bad or wrong architectural details. Tom's response was that it would be a tragedy to look up at something in the park that could have been the right way, but wasn't because we were goofing off or something instead of going that extra mile. Later on, you probably could not even recall what you were doing instead of that revision, but you would have to live with the lame result of neglect every time you saw it and hate yourself for letting it go. We were clearly obsessed and went back to corrections!

 

[HMF]

You do, that's for sure. I must say that WDI is a pretty professional outfit, so in as much as I would welcome or listen to other points of view, for the most part, once I made a final decision, the team usually just goes with it and we move on. Team members that don;t support the team concept are usually disgruntled and then eventually fall in or move off the team. Teams are expensive and mutiny is even more expensive, so the company as a whole supports the pecking order concept as it gets things done.

Is the Show Producer always the Team Leader?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Is the Show Producer always the Team Leader?

It's complicated. As there is a project manager overall. The show producer is responsible for communicating the creative intent to the project. That design intent has to be delivered on a schedule and within budget so the producer has to glean that from the designers and keep all the trains running on time.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

I believe many folks would say that the original Space Mountain was what led to Disneyland Paris's first profitable year.

I don't think anyone has ever said DLP isn't a beautiful park. Personally I, and I'm sure a lot of other people, think it is the most stunning of any of the Disneyland styled parks.

I think DLP began getting a less than favorable reputation early on, when so many prominent French figures were critical of it. As well as the problems that existed with the labour unions. Also I feel they failed to address the European culture enough in the beginning. Might as well throw in the name changes to the park as well. In '02 the Walt Disney Studios Park opened to less than stellar reviews. You couple that with the fact that it took a couple of years for DLP to turn a profit, plus no profit in '03, '04, and '05, and you get a perception of failure.

I believe today they are setting record attendance, and still turning a great profit. It still is an absolutely beautiful Park. In part to Eddie Sotto, and as a whole to all those that had a hand in designing, and executing it's construction. However, to some it will always be considered a failure because of it's struggles early on to make money.

Profitability, especially in the early stages, is not the best judge of quality in anything. Unfortunately in todays society it seems to be the dominating factor.

I'm sure Eddie can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from reading various accounts is that the main initial issue with profitability had to do with using the American model (specifically WDW) of multi night stay at a property hotel and purchase of all meals on property. Hotel rooms were vastly overbuilt for demand and that dragged down profits projected based on ticket sales. Park attendance was not an issue.

Then there was the overlooking of cultural issues...with few Europeans and even fewer French admitting that they visited or would consider visiting the parks, mix in a botched Studios project, without "any" attractions, and the negative comments spilled over to include Disneyland.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm sure Eddie can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from reading various accounts is that the main initial issue with profitability had to do with using the American model (specifically WDW) of multi night stay at a property hotel and purchase of all meals on property. Hotel rooms were vastly overbuilt for demand and that dragged down profits projected based on ticket sales. Park attendance was not an issue.

Then there was the overlooking of cultural issues...with few Europeans and even fewer French admitting that they visited or would consider visiting the parks, mix in a botched Studios project, without "any" attractions, and the negative comments spilled over to include Disneyland.

This may all be true. Here's my little rant on the topic

In order to get permission to build the project, deals had to be made with the government in the way of development and jobs. I was told they had to build out the 5 hotels to reach certain negotiated job targets in these areas. Once the budget goes up, on paper you keep adding to what you think the guest has to spend (high room rates) to cover that and at some point those assumptions become unrealistic, even for a well attended park. They eventually overshoot how much guests would spend, and culturally Europeans are not the souvenir buyers we are. And they did. Attendance was there but profit was not. Then add higher labor costs, low productivity, and issues with housing and transportation (last train back was at midnight so the cast could not get home unless they had a car) for the cast and your costs go nuts. I'm sure there is more to it, but these are big drivers.

when we built that park, DLP had the "lowest overall cost per guest carried" of any park. Meaning if you average the capacity (how many can see it in an hour or day) of the attractions against what is spent on them, then you have a "cost" to carry that guest. So we chose attractions that were high in capacity and low in their overall cost. No one remembers that.

The only confusing thing to me is, with all the information out there about the broken business plan, making the wrong deals, building 5 hotels, or underestimating the labor costs, etc. what I still hear as the short sole reason was that "the designers spent too much money on the park". There is both truth and nuance to this. Everything was approved in advance by those in power as we built the park. What I object to is the assertion by some that we were by nature "irresponsible" or "reckless" in what we were doing, and in turn not professional or trustworthy. The truth is that we had to propose all designs to management and they had to accept or reject them. Some they did, others they did not, and we obeyed that. We did not have the authority to spend beyond any approved budget. In the case of Interiors, we were not shown the budget we were working to and would only be told if what we were doing was going over. We turn our finishes in and they'd say we're ok or not and we kept going. Of course, eventually things would go over and we'd cut something in reaction to that and they approved it. Bottom Line is that we lived by the rules that were set for us. Ironically, DLP Main Street in many ways has been the interiors model for the other MSUSA's to follow conceptually.

Funny story alert! As an example, I got reamed after opening by one executive for the Arcades being "too elaborate" and a waste of money. I told this individual that another exec (same level) had come through earlier and upon seeing them mid construction thought they were "too dark" and "uninviting" and ordered me to "add more" and "they better be great". So I did and the costs were approved by my management in advance and they reflect that scope. Contrary to what many believe, creatives could not spend any significant money without someone approving it and you justifying it to them. (BTW-Those two execs are long gone.) I guess if you have to be blamed for something, you'd rather be blamed for making it "too good"!

 

[CBOMB]

While being an Imagineer certainly seems like a fantastic job, I can see why you decided to start up your own Company.

While I know you worked with, and learned from a number of great people in the field, I can only imagine the politics of working for Disney could grow old.

Did you really ever feel your creativity was being stifled because of the endless chain of command that seems to be the norm for TWDC?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

While being an Imagineer certainly seems like a fantastic job, I can see why you decided to start up your own Company.

While I know you worked with, and learned from a number of great people in the field, I can only imagine the politics of working for Disney could grow old.

Did you really ever feel your creativity was being stifled because of the endless chain of command that seems to be the norm for TWDC?

In my case, the WDC was VERY good to me, and as you can see, I got to build some pretty dang creatively satisfying stuff in spite of all the drama, so I can't really complain too much. Playing the game is just time consuming and for anyone can be frustrating. they say you must suffer for your art, politics to a degree is part of that. It was never meant to be that easy.

Politics is something every major corporation has in it's "gene pool" and is something you either learn to swim in or drown by opening your mouth too often. WDI's was nothing compared other places I've dealt with since. There is a balance. I wanted to get things built and decided to swim rather than eat sand. I was too vocal at times so I went down a few times. But in the end, the machine can't survive if you continue to build bad stuff, so the machine wants the product to win in the end because success keeps all hands afloat. That has always been the good news.

The folly of having your own Studio is that you're in control of your destiny. BUT...you still work for companies as clients but now you are less able to affect change as you are outside of the machine! You must rely on insiders to keep you afloat. (Yes I bring my dog to the office, wear shorts and can walk home.) BUT! Beware me stout 'arted lubbers. Sometimes you're viewed as an "outsourced threat" and slowly choked out by those inside and never know it till you're gone. How fun is that? So it's better to be part of the inside at times than to be on your own. Both have their advantages. Woof! Woof!

 

[_Scar]

Do you think WDW can manage, against other theme parks in the area continually gaining,with MK and DHS being the only parks getting changes in 3 years? Epcot and DAK don't have anything new in sight to open in in 2011....

Think Disney will wake up, have a shocker in store at D23, or are just going to ignore the other parks in the area for a bit?