Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Welcome to the thread, it's great to have you join the conversation!

One question: Would you say your work and the concepts for the 1920's Main Street in Paris were an inspiration for the upcoming Buena Vista Street? There seem to be many similarities.

And also, did you ever work in a Disney park? (Okay, two questions)

I doubt it, as the spanish colonial revival architecture of California is so different from what we were doing (which was a mash-up of the victorian and some deco nuances). It's closer in feel to the Hollywood Blvd. of DHS in WDW. TDS used the 20's MSUSA El Train idea to great effect and so that aspect got built.

Yes I did work in the park in several capacities. At 16 I was a busboy and host at Sunkist "I Presume" in Adventureland and Sunkist "Citrus House" on Main Street 1975-6 (practical jokes a go go). When I worked the employee nights at WDI I worked the Mark Twain. Later in the early 90's, I was the executive show producer for Disneyland under Tony Baxter.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Yes I did work in the park in several capacities. At 16 I was a busboy and host at Sunkist "I Presume" in Adventureland and Sunkist "Citrus House" on Main Street 1975-6 (practical jokes a go go). When I worked the employee nights at WDI I worked the Mark Twain. Later in the early 90's, I was the executive show producer for Disneyland under Tony Baxter.
Now' when you say you were Executive Show Producer' Does that mean you worked in Anaheim or Glendale?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Now' when you say you were Executive Show Producer' Does that mean you worked in Anaheim or Glendale?

I worked down at the park as an executive representing WDI, leading the design team down there (we were also doing Adventureland's makeover and Indy). Kim Irvine was the art director and there was a project director as well as a staff. The job included participating in DL master planning meetings and some of that was prepped back at WDI in Glendale.
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
There was an enhancement to the TDL Mansion back in the early 90's where a new entrance with big griffins was added and a few special effects in the library books scene. Minor stuff. TDL in general has lots of detail and the exterior of that attraction (WDW gothic) is well aged with lots of detail too.

When/why was there a plan to change the ride system at the Tokyo Mansion? I think you mentioned somewhere consideration of putting the GPS ride system in there, and there's a rendering in the most recent D23 magazine of a remodel that would involve 3-D glasses.

I'm sure Eddie can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from reading various accounts is that the main initial issue with profitability had to do with using the American model (specifically WDW) of multi night stay at a property hotel and purchase of all meals on property. Hotel rooms were vastly overbuilt for demand and that dragged down profits projected based on ticket sales. Park attendance was not an issue.

Then there was the overlooking of cultural issues...with few Europeans and even fewer French admitting that they visited or would consider visiting the parks, mix in a botched Studios project, without "any" attractions, and the negative comments spilled over to include Disneyland.

This is all true, but the saga of DLRP is kind of a rollercoaster that played out over time. The problem is that the early dilemmas were so unexpected and daunting that the name "Euro Disney" became synonymous with business disaster - it doesn't help that this meme was spread by a business and cultural community that had been slavering for Disney to make a misstep. Things did get better, but that initial blindsiding was so intense that it's still remembered today - and WDSP didn't help in 2002.

It wasn't a creative failure, though, and attendance only was an issue in that it didn't meet some inflated expectations. Instead of how many people were coming, the problem is how they were coming and how they were using the park. The ultra-oversimplified story:

First, Disney builds an awesome theme park and five hotels. I'm not sure what the real impetus for this was, as I'd always assumed it was Eisner's desire for an overnight "destination" resort but Eddie's interpretation of the labor agreements makes sense too. The people showed up - it was Europe's #1 tourist attraction immediately and had a greater first 6 months of attendance than any Disney park ever - but was not making a profit for several reasons:

- Far lower per-guest spending on merch than other Disney parks
- Guests not spending enough on food in the parks
- A European recession combined with unfavorable exchange rates for Britons and others
- Differing European vacation patterns which led to more day-trips and less week-long resort stays
- Parisian winters are just as cold as Tokyo winters, but much wetter - and the French were thus less likely to come out on winter days

These were all things the business side should have seen coming, as no doubt these patterns were all in their decade of site research. But I guess since every recent park had blown away expectations, I can see how optimism would come easily.

So, the resort was operating at a deficit, and Disney was paying high operating costs for hotels that weren't full. But after closing a few down for those first early winters, the resort was actually doing ok. The problem then was that any potential profits were going to servicing a crushing debt load. Those early deficits had burned through a lot of cash, and the resort was paying so much in interest it burned through all the money that was intended to go for the second gate (which was to open in 1994, then 1995). Ironically, the second gate was what a lot of people thought was necessary to pack the hotels and run up profit margins. Looking back at the press at the time, a lot of people were breathless that the park would close (and even Eisner said that Disney wouldn't loan the resort more money).

Long story short (too late), the resort refinanced, got a cash infusion, added Space Mountain in 1995 and was doing great. Sure, it came at the cost of a 2nd gate in 1995 and a 3rd gate in 1999, a water park, and several unbuilt attractions, but the resort was healthy and profitable.

Then, just as things were great, contractual obligations (and a desire for expansion) led to the Studios park in 2002. We know how well that went, and now the resort was paying to operate two parks, although only one had any people in it. :) Once again, the resort was in the red.

Anyway, now things are good again and hopefully will stay that way. The resort deserves it, and both parks need a bit of renewal. And that third gate underway by 2017!

The only confusing thing to me is, with all the information out there about the broken business plan, making the wrong deals, building 5 hotels, or underestimating the labor costs, etc. what I still hear as the short sole reason was that "the designers spent too much money on the park".

Well, I think this is the result of a coordinated effort over the years by certain people that falls under the category of CYA. Better to blame those darn creatives for their lavish frivolity than take the heat for ignoring research data or popping a park near Paris because the CEO liked going there as a kid. DLRP was used as a "cautionary tale" to excuse the abandonment of projects like Port Disney, Westcot and Disney's America in favor of stuff like DCA.

Don't worry about it, though - the fans know better and know that the Kingdom there is the most beautiful of all!

Any idea who is going to be heading up the Shanghai project? Because of the scope of the park in China I would imagine a fair amount of the Imagineering will have to be outsourced. Wouldn't it be prudent of TWDC to use people familar with the interworkings of Disney.

Bob Weis, so they say...
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
When/why was there a plan to change the ride system at the Tokyo Mansion? I think you mentioned somewhere consideration of putting the GPS ride system in there, and there's a rendering in the most recent D23 magazine of a remodel that would involve 3-D glasses.

As far as I know, there was never a plan to change TDL's HM ride system. I think I may have caused some confusion. I proposed a 3D glasses version ( new orleans "mardi gras masks") and that had free ranging wireless vehicles for DL, but I was also on TDL doing SciFi City. Not having seen the D23, I'm not sure if it's the rendering we did.
 

_Scar

Active Member
Eddie, did you do any work in WDS? I think it's a cute little park with worthwhile attractions, but it gets bashed here a lot for being worse than DCA. What do you think of the new Toystory Land being constructed and the rumored Ratatouille dark ride for WDS? I always thought that WDI tried to make rides that were exotic to the area (why PotC wasn't in MK to begin with and wasn't planned to be built there), so why Ratatouille to a France park? Has WDI changed its views?
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
Another question for Eddie...

I've been digging for DLRP info lately for a couple of stories, and I've found a couple of references to a redesign of the resort that came after Eisner showed the plans to a group of architects and designers. I think it was Michael Graves talking about it, saying that they didn't like the original plan and so Eisner had it changed.

Do you know if there's any truth to that? Of course he doesn't say what the scope of the redesign was - it would have just been changing a few of the hotels, or it could have been changing the entire layout.

Also - you mentioned the Lucas Tomorrowland before, was that just Star Tours/Captain EO or something more?
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
As far as I know, there was never a plan to change TDL's HM ride system. I think I may have caused some confusion. I proposed a 3D glasses version ( new orleans "mardi gras masks") and that had free ranging wireless vehicles for DL, but I was also on TDL doing SciFi City. Not having seen the D23, I'm not sure if it's the rendering we did.

Thanks for the clarification - that would have been wild... and a bold move changing the ride system in Anaheim!
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Thanks for the clarification - that would have been wild... and a bold move changing the ride system in Anaheim!

Could you imagine your vehicle freely "roaming" the graveyard? Or sitting in the Ballroom at the long table? I doubt it would have ever gotten very far. The ride is too sacred for an update that extreme, but the assignment was "how would you enhance the classics".
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Could you imagine your vehicle freely "roaming" the graveyard? Or sitting in the Ballroom at the long table? I doubt it would have ever gotten very far. The ride is too sacred for an update that extreme, but the assignment was "how would you enhance the classics".
Well Eddie' they just might re-use it in Hong Kong or Shanghai.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Another question for Eddie...

I've been digging for DLRP info lately for a couple of stories, and I've found a couple of references to a redesign of the resort that came after Eisner showed the plans to a group of architects and designers. I think it was Michael Graves talking about it, saying that they didn't like the original plan and so Eisner had it changed.

1. Do you know if there's any truth to that? Of course he doesn't say what the scope of the redesign was - it would have just been changing a few of the hotels, or it could have been changing the entire layout.

Also - 2. you mentioned the Lucas Tomorrowland before, was that just Star Tours/Captain EO or something more?

1. I remember participating in some WDI master planning meetings and for one, Architect Charles Moore was there and a few others. We worked on radial plans pretty much as you see it today. There was lots of debate on it. The entry sequence, the road leading up and first glimpse of the Disneyland Hotel, etc. Which in itself was a huge fight. The covered ticketing area became the basis to put a hotel right in front of the park. It was supposed to be a small scale project with a few rooms, but ended up being a mega hotel. I suggested this and regretted how big it got once the hotel folks decided to get involved. Since what we discussed looks like what was built, that meeting may have been the final round.

2. More. George Lucas was brought in to discuss a new Tomorrowland (1986), borne of his fantasy mythology for Disneyland. Had some brainstorming meetings and a few simple models. I worked on the Carousel Theater for one, making it into a giant starship, containing a traveling freak show of aliens. We hired French Comic genius, Jean Giraud Moebius (Airtight Garage) to do some concept art as Lucas said he was the inspiration behind the Star Wars designs. EO and Star Tours were in production so this was beyond that, Indy was in discussion stages. DLP had not been signed so I was put on that project.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie, did you do any work in WDS? I think it's a cute little park with worthwhile attractions, but it gets bashed here a lot for being worse than DCA. What do you think of the new Toystory Land being constructed and the rumored Ratatouille dark ride for WDS? I always thought that WDI tried to make rides that were exotic to the area (why PotC wasn't in MK to begin with and wasn't planned to be built there), so why Ratatouille to a France park? Has WDI changed its views?

Lots of questions, but less answers because I had nothing to do with that park. I was long gone when WDS went into design.

You raise an interesting point in regard to Ratatouille. You are right. The old rule always was that you don't sell the "familiar", you sell the "exotic" to the audience. So is Ratatouille too familiar, too French and boring?

I guess in this case they must have felt that you're not selling "Paris" so much as you're featuring a talking Rat, which would be exotic (hopefully) and loved. More important to the studio, the film broke all French records for an animated film, even beating Nemo! They love it and the reviews in Le Monde praise the attention to detail as to how Paris is portrayed. Normally you don't "sell ice to Eskimos" because you won't get it right, but in this case Pixar did and the locals approve. I think it would be hard not to do something over there with that kind of huge acceptance.

http://animatedfilms.suite101.com/article.cfm/ratatouille_rocks_france

However, I think the best example for your "exotic" argument might be DCA. How unique is "20's Hollywood or LA" when the real architecture is that close and in some cases the sources still exist? The make believe, "romantic" Disney translation of those places is usually what separates them from the real counterparts, but how strong will that be and will guests "get it"? In this case, the backdrop is 20's California, the one Walt came to and he is in many ways, the "character" they are embracing as inspiration. I love the Hollywood Boulevard and Sunset Blvds. at DHS (especially the Brown Derby as it pays off the fantasy of old Hollywood). LOVE them, so I'm hoping the BV street they do will be even better. But I live near the real Sunset Boulevard! And that raises the second question. Do some of these DHS references like the "Brown Derby" (it no longer exists in LA) have more meaning for LA locals than Florida tourists, because we know them as our own history? Are they better off recreated in California where they may have more meaning? What you say?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Well Eddie' they just might re-use it in Hong Kong or Shanghai.

I hope someone does in a meaningful way. "Trackless Dark Rides" is the future if you understand the creative advantages it presents. In the HM it was the notion that "something unseen" was guiding or controlling the vehicle, making it spin, go backwards, roam freely, or turn. Remember, with a trackless car, you can re enter the room you were just in and "herd" the others to get them to come with you! The ability to give the vehicle itself a personality or character appealed to me very much. I'm sure they've come up with lots of better ideas over the last ten years and we'll soon see something amazing using trackless technology.
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
Could you imagine your vehicle freely "roaming" the graveyard? Or sitting in the Ballroom at the long table? I doubt it would have ever gotten very far. The ride is too sacred for an update that extreme, but the assignment was "how would you enhance the classics".

Yeah, I would imagine refitting the DL HM for this would require a complete overhaul. Still, it's a great idea. The image in D23 appears to reflect this concept, and it sounds like what they're doing at HKDL. Someone remembered your idea :)

I'm really looking forward to seeing how they can tweak the classic concepts with modern rides systems at Shanghai. KUKA If You Had Wings ftw!

1. I remember participating in some WDI master planning meetings and for one, Architect Charles Moore was there and a few others. We worked on radial plans pretty much as you see it today. There was lots of debate on it. The entry sequence, the road leading up and first glimpse of the Disneyland Hotel, etc. Which in itself was a huge fight. The covered ticketing area became the basis to put a hotel right in front of the park. It was supposed to be a small scale project with a few rooms, but ended up being a mega hotel. I suggested this and regretted how big it got once the hotel folks decided to get involved. Since what we discussed looks like what was built, that meeting may have been the final round.

Thanks for the info. From the quotes I read it was hard to tell what they found objectionable - it could have been they thought that the hotels were too conventional or something, and had them bring in all the "name" architects. I'm interested in your thoughts about the DL Hotel, as I've always thought it seemed a little out-of-scale.

2. More. George Lucas was brought in to discuss a new Tomorrowland (1986), borne of his fantasy mythology for Disneyland. Had some brainstorming meetings and a few simple models. I worked on the Carousel Theater for one, making it into a giant starship, containing a traveling freak show of aliens. We hired French Comic genius, Jean Giraud Moebius (Airtight Garage) to do some concept art as Lucas said he was the inspiration behind the Star Wars designs. EO and Star Tours were in production so this was beyond that, Indy was in discussion stages. DLP had not been signed so I was put on that project.
Now this is killing me. Moebius in Disneyland? Awesome. Was this all existing properties (Star Wars) or new stuff? The Carousel Theater sounds like a great adaptation; was that the roots of Plectu?

I've had a pet idea in recent years for a Tomorrowland omnimover based on Ward Kimball's animations for Mars and Beyond, etc. You start out in a zoo of those bizarre creatues, and eventually they all get out. You have the scientist guy smoking his pipe with equations coming out, and the secretary/superheroine fighting the robot. Just an excuse to have a zoo of those insane Kimball designs...

You raise an interesting point in regard to Ratatouille. You are right. The old rule always was that you don't sell the "familiar", you sell the "exotic" to the audience. So is Ratatouille too familiar, too French and boring?

While the Ratatouille thing builds upon a lot of trends that I've griped about in the past, I really don't care in its case because I love that film so much and they seem to be giving it the treatment it deserves. I embrace my hypocracy!

However, I think the best example for your "exotic" argument might be DCA. How unique is "20's Hollywood or LA" when the real architecture is that close and in some cases the sources still exist?
I agree. Even if it is the sanitized version that never existed, I think the whole concept of the park was just a huge mistake. A lot of the new expansions have started to veer from the California theme, so what does that bode for the future?

Aside from demolishing the entire park and starting over, I had hoped they'd do a conversion to Disney's America. That would at least be less confining, but it also wouldn't really let them go character-crazy like they seem to want to do.

At least they're going 1920s Hollywood for Buena Vista Street - that could be interesting at least, since the Florida park seems more 1930s/40s.

As many problems as I have with the Florida studios, I could eat Hollywood and Sunset Boulevards up with a spoon. If all the park was like that, I'd move in tomorrow.
 

MiklCraw4d

Member
I hope someone does in a meaningful way. "Trackless Dark Rides" is the future if you understand the creative advantages it presents. In the HM it was the notion that "something unseen" was guiding or controlling the vehicle, making it spin, go backwards, roam freely, or turn. Remember, with a trackless car, you can re enter the room you were just in and "herd" the others to get them to come with you! The ability to give the vehicle itself a personality or character appealed to me very much. I'm sure they've come up with lots of better ideas over the last ten years and we'll soon see something amazing using trackless technology.

I hadn't thought about the potential to give the vehicle a personality. A Love Bug ride? The appeal of the trackless system to me was the ability to create an attraction with massive re-rideability potential - a ride where you couldn't see everything in just one trip.

This is one of the tragedies of losing Mr. Toad in Florida; its twin tracks allowed for different experiences and having multiple vehicles in the room at once. Now with the trackless cars, you can do this again without having to design two complete, separate sides of an attraction or faking it a la Indy. The potential is fantastic...
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I hadn't thought about the potential to give the vehicle a personality. A Love Bug ride? The appeal of the trackless system to me was the ability to create an attraction with massive re-rideability potential - a ride where you couldn't see everything in just one trip.

This is one of the tragedies of losing Mr. Toad in Florida; its twin tracks allowed for different experiences and having multiple vehicles in the room at once. Now with the trackless cars, you can do this again without having to design two complete, separate sides of an attraction or faking it a la Indy. The potential is fantastic...

Without getting into a creative session which I like to avoid (for legal reasons),
I think you totally get the point of how huge these technologies can be when applied properly applied to a story.
 

_Scar

Active Member
I'm imagining an Alice in Wonderland ride with this system! Imagine going through the labyrinth and being chased by the Queen or going down the rabbit whole or wandering through the field of flowers singing....

Is HKDL for sure using this technology in their Manor?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Who knows? but I think, like most technologies, free ranging vehicles have evolved alot since TDL Pooh, so the experience may be different.

What do you think of the idea of the new "rip ride rockit" Coaster at Universal?
 

_Scar

Active Member
Who knows? but I think, like most technologies, free ranging vehicles have evolved alot since TDL Pooh, so the experience may be different.

What do you think of the "rip ride rockit" Coaster Ride at Universal?


I don't think you were addressing me, but it seems like these forums have barely any life after a certain hour... I just read on Screamscape HRRR got mixed reviews, which surpised me. From watching it being tested, it seemed very smooth. I guess I judged wrong :shrug:.

http://www.screamscape.com/html/universal_studios_florida.htm
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I don't think you were addressing me, but it seems like these forums have barely any life after a certain hour... I just read on Screamscape HRRR got mixed reviews, which surpised me. From watching it being tested, it seemed very smooth. I guess I judged wrong :shrug:.

http://www.screamscape.com/html/universal_studios_florida.htm
I was answering you And thanks for the screamscape link.. (and sometimes I pop in late at nite or early AM PST.)
 
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