Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Animaniac93-98]

I don't think anyone here knows about the old autos that were for sale when the park opened on Main Street.

I do/did, but that's because I have a copy of The Unofficial Guide to Disneyland Paris (2nd edition).

Still, it's pretty amazing that they did.

 

[WDW1974]

I own a plastics manufacturing plant in mainland China. It's in Guangdong, about an hour's train ride from Hong Kong. I've got the Visa stamps in my passport to prove it. I had to negoiate with the Chinese Government to be allowed the business.

Me too. I loved the fact I got stamped three times when traveling from Shenzhen to HK to Macau all in the same day like I was traveling to three different countries (although in a sense I was!)

I can back up virtually every single thing that 74 said with regard to negotation style, and pre-concieved notions they have toward American businessmen, and how they go about their business... Not to mention just how clueless some Americans are when they attempt to deal with them.

I'm not sure what experience you have with business relations overseas... Especially in the Far East. But I venture to say you have none.

That's going out on a once foot limb ... make it one inch!

I, on the other hand, have. And I've stood at Victoria Peak taking in the view of Hong Kong Harbor, and played drums with a Phillipino band at the Hard Rock Cafe in Kowloon. Would you like a couple pictures for proof? One is from the roof of my factory. The other, just for fun, is me playing drums at the Hard Rock in Kowloon. I would hope that would be proof that I'm telling the truth.

74 is right.

And 74... Kudos for not getting "personal". I, personally, appreciate it. And trust me... You still got your message across. :wave:

Nice pics, but you didn't need that. JT will just tell make an excuse as to why that's fine for you but he doesn't believe me because I have no intention of putting any pics online (and sadly, I never performed at that Hard Rock or ... any ... matter of fact, I was disappointed that I never made it to the HR in Beijing despite being there for almost three months before heading to HK!)

That said, the timing of our posts is fortuitous as Disney has finally reached an agreement on expansion for HKDL and the 'new sheriff' really showed the Chinese a thing or two in the process.

The following is a blurb from Businessweek.com today ... my comments will follow:

"It looks like the Walt Disney Company (DIS) and the Hong Kong government have finally reached an agreement to expand their undersized and underperforming Hong Kong version of the Magic Kingdom... However it appears as though Disney ended up making all the concessions. According to press reports, Disney will pay for the entire expansion costing as much as $800 million. The government will convert its debt to equity to prevent its share from being diluted below the 50% mark. The Hong Kong government, quite rightly, was reluctant to pony up any more cash into the money-losing park considered too small to attract enough first time visitors, let alone getting them to come back. Although Hong Kong covered more than 80% of the initial $2.9 billion cost of the project, the government has just a 57% share in the joint venture, with Disney holding the other 43%."

Spoke to a HIGHLY placed source this afternoon at Disney and he said the word going round in Glendale is that the actual cost to Disney will likely be in the neighborhood of $900million to $1 billion when all is said and done (by comparison DCA cost about $650 million and DAK about $750 million) and that 'Disney had no choice if they wanted Shanghai to go through. The leadership in both Beijing and Hong Kong felt taken by Disney and as much as this money is about fixing HK, and making it what it should have been in 2005, it's also considered an entry fee for the Mainland.' It should also be noted that this 'investment' is considerably more than what Disney put into the project to begin with yet they still will be the minority owner.

The head of finance for the HK SAR John Tsang was dispatched to meet with Bob Iger recently in Burbank (and was refused a meeting) to discuss the stalled expansion efforts and the SAR's severe disappointment with the park's performance, along with Disney's lack of traction in getting things done. Instead, he was relegated to a brief meeting with Jay Rasulo where one of the topics was Disney's bold plans for Shanghai/The Mainland, which Disney first leaked to Reuters prior to last summer's Olympics and then later again this January while the stock was falling. All of this, despite the fact no formal approval yet exists for the new Shanghai resort (or for any building in China).

You can read between the lines anyway you choose, but it sure sounds like the new sheriff got ambushed and left Rainbow Ridge with his pockets empty and his hat stomped on.

 

[WDW1974]

Awesome post. My father had to deal with the Chinese everyday, and he would always say how amazed he was about how different they did things than he was used to business wise.

It is like landing on another planet ... just one where there are McDonald's that are actually worth eating in and Pizza Huts that have 30-page menus and the smell of garlic is always strong! (and that's just the Mainland ... not HK or Macau, which are worlds unto themselves!)

The people I worked with/for were for the most part wonderful. There just is a strong cultural difference ... one that's impossible to really 'splain until you live it.

I can say I have been to most states in the USA, many nations in Europe, as well as Canada, Mexico and countless islands in the Caribbean ... and I would be hard-pressed to find a place where I was made to feel more welcome then Beijing. That said, so many things do get lost in translation and it amazes me that a company the size and scope of Disney isn't more capable of navigating the waters needed to do business in China.

I do know I can't wait to go back (likely 2010!)

And it would be great to see HKDL actually have some new reasons to return too!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Frank Wells seemed to keep Eisner in check during those years. Once Wells died' Eisner went wild. BTW' Eddie what is the difference ratio of plans that get completed vs. Plans that don't?

2,00000000000000000,96968,000000000000000 not for every one that happens. call me an optimist.

 

[Jasonflz]

2,00000000000000000,96968,000000000000000 not for every one that happens. call me an optimist.

:lol: That is optimism. (of course I go onto Wikipidea's list of attractions never built and my optimism is gone.)

 

[tirian]

I hope I'm not quoting out of context, but it depends who's intention you are talking about. If that was true, there would not have been a WDW Barber Shop, Firehouse or Walt Disney Story. IMHO "1900 America" is not a relevant or nostalgic theme to the audience like it was in the 50's, so it has all too often defaulted to be a generic design style for anything Disney. When you don't know what to do, you enamel and pinstripe it, then it's Disney sans meaning or story. I worked on two MS's and we fought to keep them balanced between story and commerce as much as we had the power to. You can argue that MSUSA's in general are nothing more than a mall (I'd agree to a point) but our intent was not to start there and to resist that. There is still a certain amount of rich show in DLP and DL. (Shhh...the way to do this is to make the show stuff too expensive to remove!)

Remember, Disneyland invented the idea of stores interconnecting behind the facades that the real world actually copied later, it was an accidental retail breakthrough (Why? because you entered one store for a shirt and then the space bled into a jewelry store and you bought something there unconsciously). The extreme that occurs today is that the pleasant, eclectic variety promised by the colorful exterior facades is undermined when it's betrayed by a monolitic single interior of generic product. It is kind of unsatisfying. The same thing happened when I went to some small quaint town in Cape Cod, only to find the GAP and Jamba Juice inside the historic exteriors.

Eddie, I was exhausted when I typed that and it doesn't make sense to me, either!

I meant to say that Main Street was NOT intended to be a strip mall; it is certainly supposed to have attractions!

I went back and edited my comment.

 

[kashmir]

I made the suggestion that they sort out the generic stuff and make this the greatest Mickey Mouse watch shop in the world. After all, you'd expect to find the complete selection at the park. There would also be a museum display with vintage Ingersolls, all of them back to the very first one, courtesy the archives and how giving you kid their first MM watch was a Disney tradition. Make it special. We would then have an artist in the window drawing any character you want and we would personalize it to your kid and make it the watch face. You get the art too. Only at DL. Then you'd see a watchmaker in the window assembling the watches by hand. That is part of the story of MS "when things were made by hand". A good show in the window.

The point is that "special" sells and has an effect on other stuff as it draws a crowd. (Special is not routed wood signs or painting a t-shirt like at the fair.) I think the "watch artist" is in three parks now ;-)

Wow, I really want to buy a watch - seriously! You make it sound "magical".

 

[jt04]

Eddie, I was exhausted when I typed that and it doesn't make sense to me, either!

I meant to say that Main Street was NOT intended to be a strip mall; it is certainly supposed to have attractions!

I went back and edited my comment.

I thought it was me. I was like this :veryconfu when I first read it.

 

[jt04]

Huh? Have you ever worked in retail? Since when have you addressed the problem of shop lifters by changing all your retail product to junk?

I think you might be onto something as far as Ebay is concerned though. Makes it much easier to get things (when they were unique) from the world.

Thanks, you are closer to what I meant. Let me clarify because everyone else got it completely wrong. There was a time when the only way to get unique items was to visit the parks or have someone else purchase an item for you. With the advent of the internet people could offer unique items to a broader market and make a decent profit. Anyway, Ebay made it quite possible for people to make a decent living offering unique items and especially if those items were "free" of cost. There would have been increasing incentive for guests/employees/contractors to avail themselves of unique items for sale on-line. Unfortunately ebay was the place people did this kind of transaction especially before the advent of safeguards. But obviously it is still something that happens.

And if you doubt me, just look at the way unique and often numbered items are handled during Star Wars Weekends. That alone validated what I had long suspected. The "unique" shops marginal profit margins went away in an age where guests and employees are indoctrinated by society to have a deep sense of entitlement. So eventually enough people "entitle" themselves lol and eventually we all lose something that was special. Namely unique and themed stores with special merchandise.

And in that there are also many life lessons to be learned. And a lot of people are in the process of learning them. Keep your arms and legs in the ride vehicle at all times. We are all in for a very rough ride.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I meant to say that Main Street was NOT intended to be a strip mall; it is certainly supposed to have attractions!

I went back and edited my comment.

NOW you tell me, I could have saved a whole rant!

 

[jhastings74]

I'll go back to my original point about Star Wars stuff at DAK or even worse Hannah Montana.

It's not more important, but it is a very noticable break in the suspension of disbelief of where you are supposed to be in the "World".

100% agreed. When I was working at Chester & Hester's last year, I hated stocking at the end of the night and making sure that all of the HSM3 and Hannah Montana displays were full...made no sense to me why a 'Dinosaur dig site souvenir shop' would be selling pre-teen girl karaoke games...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Anyway, Ebay made it quite possible for people to make a decent living offering unique items and especially if those items were "free" of cost. There would have been increasing incentive for guests/employees/contractors to avail themselves of unique items for sale on-line. Unfortunately ebay was the place people did this kind of transaction especially before the advent of safeguards. But obviously it is still something that happens.

Sure. Just to understand, so CM's ripping off the collectibles and putting them on eBay, in your opinion, has ruined the incentive for the merchandise folks to replenish the stock of antique driven places like Sid's and perhaps turned the collectors to that venue instead of the shop itself. Ok.

Perhaps in addition, I tend to believe that when you have a captive audience that automatically buys souvenir items in huge volume, the incentive to find unique low volume stuff evaporates. It's about how many people you have on a fixed budget to buy for the park, and what will you buy in those hours that delivers the most bang. It may require too much time and effort to assign someone to buy weird stuff at estate sales for one or two stores that lose money and those items may move at a snails pace by comparison, so they use their buying resources wisely on the Disney product that is easily quantified and moves faster. I think the merchandise people would love to have an antique shop or something like that as a one off, but the business model they probably live in does not have much room for that.

Like political regimes, Merchandise regimes change too and it determines a policy. It's funny as when a new head comes in they have to show improvement to make a splash. So one time I saw the new person come in and clear out most of the old SKU's that didn't sell well and sort down to the top 10 to 20% souvenir items. Then they start infilling what they like and redoing the assortment, but with less non character stuff. Then that person left and the next one comes in and does a similar editing job. Distilling the whole thing to less and less unique product. Then we see consolidation into the Disney Parks concept, or supporting an anniversary, etc. So on and on there is this evolution of stuff driven by new management. Eventually someone redoes it all and makes it good again. The 50th at DL is a good example.

In the 30 years I've been doing this I've seen a funny "cycle" at theme parks with food and merch, but mostly food. At Knott's it went like this.

The new Foods guy is hired to run the Restaurants and wants to impress, so they come out with Mega Nachos and they are huge and really good. I had them. Tons of cheese, homemade style chips, etc. I'm impressed and so everyone loves the new Foods guy. The price goes way up, but who care's? It's big and it's great and it sells. Over time once the newness has worn off, management says they want more profit from the same attendance. The heat is way on, but what can Nacho man do? The Foods guy, puts his menu into a Waring "Blander" and hits the switch called "Death by 1000 Cuts"...He slowly begins to cheapen the nachos, smaller portions, a bitter tasting factory made chip, loses the real cheese and uses squirtable fake cheese. This happens across the board with everything but popcorn, (they just shrink the box), but all at a deceptively slow pace until the food is
reduced to cardboard.

Alas! the AP's and locals stop eating at the park, profit is way up but volume is way down. The report hits the bosses' desk. "Hey! what the heck is going on out there?" Management finally goes out into the park and actually tastes the food and says "Boys! This food tastes like cardboard! It's that idiot Foods guy, my kid makes better Nachos than this!, I bet guests would come in droves if we only had.... great food! Forget the margins, what if we served food they'll actually eat? Home Run! We'll make it up in volume! We need a food item we can market!" They secretly interview a new Foods guy who has a name because he worked on a Cruise Ship or at a 4 Seasons Hotel, the guy demos some cheap piece of meat on a stick buried in cheese and claims it's the new "Grubstake" that guests will fawn over. They taste it and in unison they wipe the grease from their collective mouths and promptly fire the old Foods guy who is gone faster than you can say "Chalupa". (The names and items were changed to protect the innocent)

The "quality pendulum" swings magically back for a short time from "correctional facility" back toward "Margaritaville" and we are back to chip one. The food improves and they bring back Mega Nachos "now with more cheese and better chips" till management squeezes that new guy for more and more profit and things go south. Merchandise swings like that too to a lesser degree and the quality radically shifts only temporarily. Just my observation.

Tony tells a similar story of how the "Mint Julep" (bar mix and soda) at DL NOS slowly eroded into something detestable for those same economizing reasons. Some products never make it back.

 

[jt04]

Sure. Just to understand, so CM's ripping off the collectibles and putting them on eBay, in your opinion, has ruined the incentive for the merchandise folks to replenish the stock of antique driven places like Sid's and perhaps turned the collectors to that venue instead of the shop itself. Ok.

Perhaps in addition, I tend to believe that when you have a captive audience that automatically buys souvenir items in huge volume, the incentive to find unique low volume stuff evaporates. It's about how many people you have on a fixed budget to buy for the park, and what will you buy in those hours that delivers the most bang. It may require too much time and effort to assign someone to buy weird stuff at estate sales for one or two stores that lose money and those items may move at a snails pace by comparison, so they use their buying resources wisely on the Disney product that is easily quantified and moves faster. I think the merchandise people would love to have an antique shop or something like that as a one off, but the business model they probably live in does not have much room for that.

Like political regimes, Merchandise regimes change too and it determines a policy. It's funny as when a new head comes in they have to show improvement to make a splash. So one time I saw the new person come in and clear out most of the old SKU's that didn't sell well and sort down to the top 10 to 20% souvenir items. Then they start infilling what they like and redoing the assortment, but with less non character stuff. Then that person left and the next one comes in and does a similar editing job. Distilling the whole thing to less and less unique product. Then we see consolidation into the Disney Parks concept, or supporting an anniversary, etc. So on and on there is this evolution of stuff driven by new management. Eventually someone redoes it all and makes it good again. The 50th at DL is a good example.

In the 30 years I've been doing this I've seen a funny "cycle" at theme parks with food and merch, but mostly food. At Knott's it went like this.

The new Foods guy is hired to run the Restaurants and wants to impress, so they come out with Mega Nachos and they are huge and really good. I had them. Tons of cheese, homemade style chips, etc. I'm impressed and so everyone loves the new Foods guy. Over time once the newness has worn off, management says they want more profit from the same attendance. The heat is way on, but what can Nacho man do? The Foods guy, puts his menu into a Waring "Blander" and hits the switch called "Death by 1000 Cuts"...He slowly begins to cheapen the nachos, smaller portions, a bitter tasting factory made chip, loses the real cheese and uses squirtable fake cheese. This happens across the board with everything but popcorn, (they just shrink the box), but all at a deceptively slow pace until the food is
reduced to cardboard.

Alas! the AP's and locals stop eating at the park, profit is way up but volume is way down. The report hits the bosses' desk. "Hey! what the heck is going on out there?" Management finally goes out into the park and actually tastes the food and says "Boys! This food tastes like cardboard! It's that idiot Foods guy, my kid makes better Nachos than this!, I bet guests would come in droves if we only had.... great food! Forget the margins, what if we served food they'll actually eat? Home Run! We'll make it up in volume! We need a food item we can market!" They secretly interview a new Foods guy who has a name because he worked on a Cruise Ship or at a 4 Seasons Hotel, the guy demos some cheap piece of meat on a stick buried in cheese and claims it's the new "Grubstake" that guests will fawn over. They taste it and in unison they wipe the grease from their collective mouths and promptly fire the old Foods guy who is gone faster than you can say "Chalupa". (The names and items were changed to protect the innocent)

The "quality pendulum" swings magically back for a short time from "correctional facility" back toward "Margaritaville" and we are back to chip one. The food improves and they bring back Mega Nachos "now with more cheese and better chips" till management squeezes that new guy for more and more profit and things go south. Merchandise swings like that too to a lesser degree and the quality radically shifts only temporarily. Just my observation.

Tony tells a similar story of how the "Mint Julep" (bar mix and soda) at DL NOS slowly eroded into something detestable for those same economizing reasons. Some products never make it back.

Wow. Two different subjects. I was discussing how theft ruined the profit margins of the specialty shops. Just to add, walk into Sid's or a high end shop at WDW nowadays and just watch how the CM's watch the guests. Not to mention the security cameras. And soon RFID price tags I am sure. Shoplifting and pilfering is a large part of the problem.

As to the quality theory of food, well it is easy to just blame management but that is only a small part of the problem. The next time DL or WDW raises soda or water prices just go to the respective forums and watch the rage. Customers continually demand the same quality product at the same price. That, of course, is economically impossible. Salaries and expenses always rise so something has to give. The trick is to know where to get nachos that meet your discriminating palate. A counter service at a theme park is probably not a promising option. I would suggest Riveras in Los Angeles. :lol: :wave:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

A counter service at a theme park is probably not a promising option. I would suggest Riveras in Los Angeles. :lol: :wave:

Now that you mention it, so would I! We grind the corn for our tortillas daily and decorate them with real edible flowers so each one is a scene that you paint with avocado Indian butter! (Thanks for the plug!)

 

[jt04]

Now that you mention it, so would I! We grind the corn for our tortillas daily and decorate them with real edible flowers so each one is a scene that you paint with avocado Indian butter! (Thanks for the plug!)

No problem. I saw the food pictures on your web site and it is obvious the care you put into those creations. A French presentation of Latin Food. The French music is perfect! If I didn't know you were a former Imagineer, I'd have guessed it by the presentation and creative aspects of the web site.

Here is a link for those interested in his restaurant. I figure since he is kind enough to post here it a reasonable gesture to plug his restaurant. www.riverarestaurant.com

 

[yankspy]

When I was down at the park (1992?), I was on a walk thru with merchandise and they said that the New Century Clock shop business was down and they wanted a new concept. We looked at the store and it was a mixed bag of generic Seiko wall clocks and Disney timepieces but nothing stood out.

I made the suggestion that they sort out the generic stuff and make this the greatest Mickey Mouse watch shop in the world. After all, you'd expect to find the complete selection at the park. There would also be a museum display with vintage Ingersolls, all of them back to the very first one, courtesy the archives and how giving you kid their first MM watch was a Disney tradition. Make it special. We would then have an artist in the window drawing any character you want and we would personalize it to your kid and make it the watch face. You get the art too. Only at DL. Then you'd see a watchmaker in the window assembling the watches by hand. That is part of the story of MS "when things were made by hand". A good show in the window.

The character stuff was a slam dunk, but of course, the artist thing was hard to deal with, a pain to manage, and a tough sell. They said a watch could only retail for 75 bucks tops (yeah right, with original art!). Now they range from 125 to 500). With some arm twisting and finally then President Frank Wells forcing them to test it, it was tested and they and production was back ordered for three months from 3 days business. That did it. The interesting thing was that the mere presence of the watch artist and watch maker in the window caused the rest of the store to increase overall by 30%!

The point is that "special" sells and has an effect on other stuff as it draws a crowd. (Special is not routed wood signs or painting a t-shirt like at the fair.) I think the "watch artist" is in three parks now ;-)

I could spend hours watching the glass blowers or the hats being stitched. It is/was a great thing about Main Street. Heck, I even like to watch them make peanut brittle on Main Street. There is something about watching someone create something out of nothing.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I could spend hours watching the glass blowers or the hats being stitched. It is/was a great thing about Main Street. Heck, I even like to watch them make peanut brittle on Main Street. There is something about watching someone create something out of nothing.

It's awesome. I have the same memory. And the "Turn of the Century" was like that to a degree. People actually made things. As a designer you want to pay attention to behavior patterns that we all share to some extent. Primal things, like the smell of candy! For some reason, many people are fascinated with miniatures, or like you say the process of creating something like glass sculpture, a sandcastle, art or music. We marvel at how things come into existence especially if we can't do it ourselves. Experiential cliches that always draw a crowd. I was just on the 3rd St Promenade (Santa Monica, CA) last hour with all these Street performers and watched the crowds and exactly what is entertaining them or not. What I like best about what you said is that the retail experience itself is an amazing piece of untapped entertainment if we stretch to imagine how it can be fun and special (even if we are not a buyer).

 

[Eddie Sotto]

100% agreed. When I was working at Chester & Hester's last year, I hated stocking at the end of the night and making sure that all of the HSM3 and Hannah Montana displays were full...made no sense to me why a 'Dinosaur dig site souvenir shop' would be selling pre-teen girl karaoke games...

You are right, they don't belong. I suppose the sad "why?" reality is that they must have sold well or you wouldn't keep restocking them every night.

 

[Lee]

Ahh...the good times....
Candy being made in the confectionary, Ice Cream being prepared, CMs in the magic shop demonstrating tricks....

 

[TalkingHead]

Wow. Two different subjects. I was discussing how theft ruined the profit margins of the specialty shops. Just to add, walk into Sid's or a high end shop at WDW nowadays and just watch how the CM's watch the guests. Not to mention the security cameras. And soon RFID price tags I am sure. Shoplifting and pilfering is a large part of the problem.

What proof do you have of that? Or is this just you making stuff up again?