Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
I could spend hours watching the glass blowers or the hats being stitched. It is/was a great thing about Main Street. Heck, I even like to watch them make peanut brittle on Main Street. There is something about watching someone create something out of nothing.

It's awesome. I have the same memory. And the "Turn of the Century" was like that to a degree. People actually made things. As a designer you want to pay attention to behavior patterns that we all share to some extent. Primal things, like the smell of candy! For some reason, many people are fascinated with miniatures, or like you say the process of creating something like glass sculpture, a sandcastle, art or music. We marvel at how things come into existence especially if we can't do it ourselves. Experiential cliches that always draw a crowd. I was just on the 3rd St Promenade (Santa Monica, CA) last hour with all these Street performers and watched the crowds and exactly what is entertaining them or not. What I like best about what you said is that the retail experience itself is an amazing piece of untapped entertainment if we stretch to imagine how it can be fun and special (even if we are not a buyer).
Along similar lines, I enjoyed stopping in Downtown Disney at Disneyland a few weeks ago to watch a caricature artist make a drawing of a young girl, even though I had no intention of buying a picture.

After I had stood there for a minute or so, a Cast Member asked me if I needed anything, and I said no, that I was just being entertained. It might have been a perfectly innocuous question on her part, but after that, I got the feeling that there might be a "buy something or move on" vibe there...so I did the latter.
 

The Conundrum

New Member
Not wrong. It is irrelevent as it relates to Iger. Period. It's not the same company. He did not give us the old DCA, Eisner did. Iger is fixing it.



Lee said:
Really? Where? And don't include hotel rooms or DVC units. As Tirian said, the industry and investors are looking for them to invest in reasons for guests to come back, a long term plan. Thus far, there isn't one.
And who exactly is the sheriff?

The crowds are there despite all the D&G predictions. There may be a long term plan nobody but the highest levels in Orlando know about. In fact I would bet money on it! :)


Ah it is nice to know JT is still defending a sinking ship.

Before you make such bold claims about crowds lets see a comparision between this month's numbers and last year's numbers in the same month. Show me proof that "the crowds are coming" give the people hard numbers.

Btw, there is no "high level plan" and you really should answer everyone's question about this new "sheriff' you keep talking about. It sure as heck ain't Lasseter.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Along similar lines, I enjoyed stopping in Downtown Disney at Disneyland a few weeks ago to watch a caricature artist make a drawing of a young girl, even though I had no intention of buying a picture.

After I had stood there for a minute or so, a Cast Member asked me if I needed anything, and I said no, that I was just being entertained. It might have been a perfectly innocuous question on her part, but after that, I got the feeling that there might be a "buy something or move on" vibe there...so I did the latter.

I hope it was. Yet you raise a good point. There is a fine line between hard sell merchandising and offering a souvenir isn't there?

You can feel the hard sell. It can even creep into the design. There used to be an unwritten rule about providing a way for the guest to exit an attraction without forcing them through the gift shop. It was a matter of ethics and good show. DL Star Tours broke that rule by the OP's folks closing a door to redirect the traffic and gain extra space. The Disneyland version forces you to go through the Star Wars Shop and then the Character Shop as they blocked off the exit. On the other hand, DL's IASW or POTC exposes you to the shop but going in is an option, not a forced experience. I enjoy the shops and love to see what the merchandise is, but this can be cruel with small kids in tow and some parents resent being manipulated as their kids are continually teased by the low hanging toys and are put in a position to potentially say "no".
 

yankspy

Well-Known Member
It's awesome. I have the same memory. And the "Turn of the Century" was like that to a degree. People actually made things. As a designer you want to pay attention to behavior patterns that we all share to some extent. Primal things, like the smell of candy! For some reason, many people are fascinated with miniatures, or like you say the process of creating something like glass sculpture, a sandcastle, art or music. We marvel at how things come into existence especially if we can't do it ourselves. Experiential cliches that always draw a crowd. I was just on the 3rd St Promenade (Santa Monica, CA) last hour with all these Street performers and watched the crowds and exactly what is entertaining them or not. What I like best about what you said is that the retail experience itself is an amazing piece of untapped entertainment if we stretch to imagine how it can be fun and special (even if we are not a buyer).

The best example I can think of in Disney is the Candy sculptor in Japan at Epcot. That woman always has a huge crowd watching her.

Ahh...the good times....
Candy being made in the confectionary, Ice Cream being prepared, CMs in the magic shop demonstrating tricks....

:D
Don't forget the joy of relaxing on the outside patio at Oscar Mayer while having breakfast and listening to the sounds of Main Street.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Don't forget the joy of relaxing on the outside patio at Oscar Mayer while having breakfast and listening to the sounds of Main Street.

I enjoy having a Corn Dog at DL Coke Corner when the Piano player is performing. I wish I could play like that!
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
I enjoy having a Corn Dog at DL Coke Corner when the Piano player is performing. I wish I could play like that!

I do the same @ WDW's Piano.:lol: I have many fond memories of talking to the player as he played...He actually inspired me to go home and learn to play and take lessons.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Why we like it...

I do the same @ WDW's Piano.:lol: I have many fond memories of talking to the player as he played...He actually inspired me to go home and learn to play and take lessons.

I wish I had! My grandfather (Eddie Sotto Sr.) as a young man was a vaudevillian/radio performer in the 1920's. Music and comedy. (Was also an artist/cartoonist/designer.) When I was a kid, he'd play his banjo or ukulele and sing his old act in the family room for us when he came to visit. Eventually, he wanted me to learn his jokes and act and play the banjo. I clumsily learned a tune or two, but point being, after his passing I'd request the pianist at Coke Corner to play those songs and most of them they knew (they were usually surprised).

He did the same thing years earlier when he visited the park with my grandmother. So that spot is SUPER special to me for that very reason because it's the only other place to hear his songs performed. The Corn Dogs must be an homage to his jokes. I guess Main Street is somewhat genetic!

Ask 'em to play "Shanty Town" and tell 'em "Grandpa Eddie" sent ya! (they'll call Security for sure).
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
I wish I had! My grandfather (Eddie Sotto Sr.) as a young man was a vaudevillian/radio performer in the 1920's. Music and comedy. (Was also an artist/cartoonist/designer.) When I was a kid, he'd play his banjo or ukulele and sing his old act in the family room for us when he came to visit. Eventually, he wanted me to learn his jokes and act and play the banjo. I clumsily learned a tune or two, but point being, after his passing I'd request the pianist at Coke Corner to play those songs and most of them they knew (they were usually surprised).

He did the same thing years earlier when he visited the park with my grandmother. So that spot is SUPER special to me for that very reason because it's the only other place to hear his songs performed. The Corn Dogs must be in homage to his jokes. I guess Main Street is somewhat genetic!

Ask 'em to play "Shanty Town" and tell 'em "Grandpa Eddie" sent ya! (they'll call Security for sure).

Aww, that's sweet, Eddie.:D

I'll ask for Shanty Town...but I'll leave out the Grandpa part.:lookaroun:lol:
 

yankspy

Well-Known Member
I wish I had! My grandfather (Eddie Sotto Sr.) as a young man was a vaudevillian/radio performer in the 1920's. Music and comedy. (Was also an artist/cartoonist/designer.) When I was a kid, he'd play his banjo or ukulele and sing his old act in the family room for us when he came to visit. Eventually, he wanted me to learn his jokes and act and play the banjo. I clumsily learned a tune or two, but point being, after his passing I'd request the pianist at Coke Corner to play those songs and most of them they knew (they were usually surprised).

He did the same thing years earlier when he visited the park with my grandmother. So that spot is SUPER special to me for that very reason because it's the only other place to hear his songs performed. The Corn Dogs must be in homage to his jokes. I guess Main Street is somewhat genetic!

Ask 'em to play "Shanty Town" and tell 'em "Grandpa Eddie" sent ya! (they'll call Security for sure).
You also mentioned the the performers before and it reminded me of Michael Iceberg. We used to go to WDW a lot when I was a kid and we always stopped in to see him perform. It was kind of nice because he got to know us and he would always come down and talk to us for a few minutes in between sets. It sort of made you feel special.
 

EPCOT Explorer

New Member
You also mentioned the the performers before and it reminded me of Michael Iceberg. We used to go to WDW a lot when I was a kid and we always stopped in to see him perform. It was kind of nice because he got to know us and he would always come down and talk to us for a few minutes in between sets. It sort of made you feel special.

Several of the Piano players actually recognized me, too!:lol::eek:
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
You also mentioned the the performers before and it reminded me of Michael Iceberg. We used to go to WDW a lot when I was a kid and we always stopped in to see him perform. It was kind of nice because he got to know us and he would always come down and talk to us for a few minutes in between sets. It sort of made you feel special.

It sure does. Hats off to him for doing that. To me, the park is all about that. The extra mile that creates a human connection. What better way to demonstrate the theme of "Small Town America" than to reach out like that, as in small towns "everyone knew everyone". That makes Main Street everyone's Hometown. Pin trading and hometowns on badges promote CM contact too. It's easier to forgive a few burned out light bulbs when you get to hang out with the performers! It does not have to be much, but again, it's that small gesture that makes all the difference.

Not familiar with Iceberg, Rod Miller was the legendary guy at DL who always remembered me and asked about my family. I think there are millions that have had that same experience as you and I notice lots of AP's hang out there as well. It is one of those great little things that gives the park that "soul" we've been discussing.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Sure. Just to understand, so CM's ripping off the collectibles and putting them on eBay, in your opinion, has ruined the incentive for the merchandise folks to replenish the stock of antique driven places like Sid's and perhaps turned the collectors to that venue instead of the shop itself. Ok.

Perhaps in addition, I tend to believe that when you have a captive audience that automatically buys souvenir items in huge volume, the incentive to find unique low volume stuff evaporates. It's about how many people you have on a fixed budget to buy for the park, and what will you buy in those hours that delivers the most bang. It may require too much time and effort to assign someone to buy weird stuff at estate sales for one or two stores that lose money and those items may move at a snails pace by comparison, so they use their buying resources wisely on the Disney product that is easily quantified and moves faster. I think the merchandise people would love to have an antique shop or something like that as a one off, but the business model they probably live in does not have much room for that.

Like political regimes, Merchandise regimes change too and it determines a policy. It's funny as when a new head comes in they have to show improvement to make a splash. So one time I saw the new person come in and clear out most of the old SKU's that didn't sell well and sort down to the top 10 to 20% souvenir items. Then they start infilling what they like and redoing the assortment, but with less non character stuff. Then that person left and the next one comes in and does a similar editing job. Distilling the whole thing to less and less unique product. Then we see consolidation into the Disney Parks concept, or supporting an anniversary, etc. So on and on there is this evolution of stuff driven by new management. Eventually someone redoes it all and makes it good again. The 50th at DL is a good example.

In the 30 years I've been doing this I've seen a funny "cycle" at theme parks with food and merch, but mostly food. At Knott's it went like this.

The new Foods guy is hired to run the Restaurants and wants to impress, so they come out with Mega Nachos and they are huge and really good. I had them. Tons of cheese, homemade style chips, etc. I'm impressed and so everyone loves the new Foods guy. The price goes way up, but who care's? It's big and it's great and it sells. Over time once the newness has worn off, management says they want more profit from the same attendance. The heat is way on, but what can Nacho man do? The Foods guy, puts his menu into a Waring "Blander" and hits the switch called "Death by 1000 Cuts"...He slowly begins to cheapen the nachos, smaller portions, a bitter tasting factory made chip, loses the real cheese and uses squirtable fake cheese. This happens across the board with everything but popcorn, (they just shrink the box), but all at a deceptively slow pace until the food is
reduced to cardboard.

Alas! the AP's and locals stop eating at the park, profit is way up but volume is way down. The report hits the bosses' desk. "Hey! what the heck is going on out there?" Management finally goes out into the park and actually tastes the food and says "Boys! This food tastes like cardboard! It's that idiot Foods guy, my kid makes better Nachos than this!, I bet guests would come in droves if we only had.... great food! Forget the margins, what if we served food they'll actually eat? Home Run! We'll make it up in volume! We need a food item we can market!" They secretly interview a new Foods guy who has a name because he worked on a Cruise Ship or at a 4 Seasons Hotel, the guy demos some cheap piece of meat on a stick buried in cheese and claims it's the new "Grubstake" that guests will fawn over. They taste it and in unison they wipe the grease from their collective mouths and promptly fire the old Foods guy who is gone faster than you can say "Chalupa". (The names and items were changed to protect the innocent)

The "quality pendulum" swings magically back for a short time from "correctional facility" back toward "Margaritaville" and we are back to chip one. The food improves and they bring back Mega Nachos "now with more cheese and better chips" till management squeezes that new guy for more and more profit and things go south. Merchandise swings like that too to a lesser degree and the quality radically shifts only temporarily. Just my observation.

Tony tells a similar story of how the "Mint Julep" (bar mix and soda) at DL NOS slowly eroded into something detestable for those same economizing reasons. Some products never make it back.

Interesting thoughts.

I have watched similar situations with Food and Beverage in Orlando. It's sad too. I generally tell folks to eat at new locations because they tend to not only be the best value when they open, they also tend to innovate and dare to try new flavors, items etc ... only after they've been open a while do they start getting dumbed down. Sadly, this has happened much greater since the 'cruise line' dining plan aka DDP has taken over WDW ...

There's less choice, less variety and much higher price points (to convince people that they're really getting a deal on the DDP).

I just look at Dixie Landings/Port Orleans as an example. When they opened they had great, reasonable full-serve restaurants that served breakfast and dinner in Boatwright's and Bonfamille's as well as two quality food courts.

Over the years, they dumbed the offerings down at the food courts (for a while they stopped grilling fresh burgers -- they used to be GREAT -- in favor of boil in a bag before they went back, I assume because of many complaints). Then they used 9/11 as an excuse to kill Bonfamille's, which made it the only moderate resort without a full serve locale. But Disney had an answer for that, they simply combined the resorts into one (also dropping a name that some felt was politically incorrect).

Over the years, the quality at Boatwright's also fell. When it opened (and for years to come) they served a wide variety of entrees (many southern specialities) and every meal came with a bottomless bowl of great salad with homemade Cajun ranch dressing. Well, at some point they decided to stop advertising the salad refills on the menu, so you had to ask ... then they decided to stop offering ANY salad entirely. You wanted salad, you paid an extra $1.99 for a small plate (no endless refills). Pretty soon, the homemade dressing was gone. Every year prices went up. Last I checked, a salad would set you back $6 plus the cost of your dinner.

Boatwright's also had one of the best breakfasts on property.I can actually taste their pancakes now (and I am NOT a breakfast guy). It was great food and reasonable. And always packed. Well, they decided to eliminate it early this year. Not because it wasn't profitable. Not because people weren't waiting to get in most mornings. Simply because they could consolidate and some manager could show a net savings in labor.

So now, if someone wants a full service breakfast at either Port Orleans or Dixie Landings they need to travel. Most on-site guests will just go elsewhere, so they'll be inconvenienced but Disney will still get their $$$. And that's what it's all become about. Constantly pushing profit margins up, regardless of quality.

Dining used to be a huge part of my WDW visits, but not so much the past 2-3 years.

It's a dumbing down process. Much like taking details ... layers away ... at say MK.

This is again part of the business model. Being profitable isn't enough. You must meet certain numbers ... numbers that get more absurd by the year.

Oh, and to go back to the merchandise part of the discussion, I happened upon a record-book from MK Ops showing the numbers for 1987-88 at all MK attractions, retail and dining locations ... it's fascinating really ... and I can't even understand all of it!

I can tell you that Emporium was the No. 1 profit center of MK merchandise for the year ... and the perfume shop in LS was the least (but it WAS profitable). Of course, in those days, show mattered in every aspect.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Put it this way... if this were a wild west shoot out.. he would have never even been able to draw his gun...

Exactly ... and they would have shot his horse and stomped on his hat too!

On the other hand, I am really looking forward to hearing about what they've decided on for HKDL (really, really, really hoping the voodoo-themed Mansion is a go ... although it sounds like Frontierland is the big addition) ... I think that park/resort will be amazing ... some day!
 
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