jt04
Well-Known Member
:ROFLOL:
Do you actually think the Penny Arcade and the Cinema and the WD Story and the firehouse etc. will return?
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks
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:ROFLOL:
Do you actually think the Penny Arcade and the Cinema and the WD Story and the firehouse etc. will return?
Expo_Seeker40
Well-Known Member
I always found it interesting when people said...Magic Kingdom style parks are an escape from reality...yet Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom in it's first decade were really an American history and adventure park...the only escape being the fantasy of fantasyland and the possibilities of tomorrowland.
By the time EPCOT Center came about "fantasy and reality are coming together"...but fantasy was different than pixie dust if you will, fantasy was a compliment...it wasn't the sole element.
By the time EPCOT Center came about "fantasy and reality are coming together"...but fantasy was different than pixie dust if you will, fantasy was a compliment...it wasn't the sole element.
tirian
Well-Known Member
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
Um, no, I was referring to your "reality" logic in thinking that shops which provide revenue for the parks should be replaced with attractions.
Never mind your failure to comprehend why shops are important to the parks in adding to the atmosphere and differing them from other "amusement parks" (as you call them).
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I remember seeing a photo of the DLP prexy handing an original animation cel to Jacques Chirac, then mayor of Paris to commemorate the union of Disney and France as the contract was signed for the park. Guess what the image was? Snow White accepting the Poison Apple. Nice.
tirian
Well-Known Member
Eddie, it's comments like this that make you an invaluable source of knowledge. Thank you for typing my favorite post of the week.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Thanks. My pleasure! That mega post of yours today was very educational as well. You know what they say, one man's invaluable knowledge makes for another man's hate mail! Gotta love these boards!
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
I must say...It's been a interesting read.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
There was a time when shopping was a one of a kind adventure. Sid Cahuenga's had a scrapbook I bought with a waitresses pictures of all her star customers at the brown derby in 1942. Their autographs on the meal checks! That made the studio tour real to me. Awesome. Great shopping is an attraction in of itself to many as it is a symbol of collecting the experience they've just had. A scalp from the hunt! When the scalps are all the same who cares about the hunt? Ask Shrunken Ned!
jt04
Well-Known Member
My sincere feeling was that theft caused them to pull unique and better quality wares from the shops. Ebay may have done more to end themed merchandise than anything else. I understand people's perspective on themed stores but it was never important to me. I do like that I can walk the length of Main Street entirely indoors when it's raining or the streets are too crowded however. So there is a silver lining. :lookaroun
:lol:
Fade_to_Blah
Member
Huh? Have you ever worked in retail? Since when have you addressed the problem of shop lifters by changing all your retail product to junk?
I think you might be onto something as far as Ebay is concerned though. Makes it much easier to get things (when they were unique) from the world.
tirian
Well-Known Member
No, the generic merch occurred at the same time Wal-Mart became the number one store in America. In the 1990s, the Wal-Mart mentality was popular, and it didn't have as much of a negative vibe as it does today. I remember when "experts" were predicting Wal-Mart would replace shopping malls and electronic stores.
Disney switched to generic merch because it was cheaper for them to stock and sales went up. It was part of the have-it-all culture in the 1990s and early 2000s. Now that people tend to want unique things again in the real world, and customers are turning their backs on Wal-Mart, it'll be interesting to see if Disney comes full circle and brings back the unique merchandise. I sure hope so.
As for Main Street, it never was intended to be a strip mall, and WDW could have added DLP-style arcades to the backs of the buildings. The arcades would have helped with Guest overflow on busy days too, and they wouldn't have to open backstage areas so frequently.
EDIT: Main Street is a land, not a mall, and should have specialized stores and attractions.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
War stories
I think in the case of the Antiques Stores, I recall many years ago that the original buyer for those wares, either died or quit, but they didn't know how to proceed or more likely did not want to. The stock slowly dwindled. I don't quite get the eBay argument as then it's easier to buy for the shop now than ever. Antiques are impulse items as if they are bought well, they are truly "One of a kind" and will sell. Sid's had a friendship ring given to John Barrymore by Errol Flynn with their initials on it. It was "One of a kind" and amazing. That's it, one only. Buy it or don't. Just holding it made my day and gave the Boulevard street cred. Collectables are eBay comparable and that is an issue.
When I was down at DL (VP working for TB) Tony Baxter had a very good idea long ago that we negotiated with the merchandise folks. The issue at the time (the 90s) was that all stores had to perform to a similar bottom line. No store could "lose" money by definition (which is ridiculous when you compete with yourself). What this was doing was putting undue pressure on heavily themed "show" shops, like an antique shop or a perfume store when compared to a T Shirt Shop. Tony wanted the whole merchandise $$ pie seen as one and then we would classify each shop as an A ,B, or C store by performance. We would give them more free reign to merchandise the C class "volume" Emporium (plush and shirts) and push that if they gave in and let us do more show with more display in an A low volume "Show" store. We staked out the territory and everyone respected the turf to a degree.
IMHO this worked well initially until the slippery slope of class definition, product or management change crept in and enforcement eroded over time. (The "One of a kind" Shop was selling pictures frames by the hundred, so we called it the "Ton of a Kind" LOL ). DL Main Street has a pretty good variety of Disney product contained in well themed spaces. Could it be better? Sure. We still have a Cinema and a Firehouse. Any new park has those spaces on the kill list (HKDL just lost theirs to Jewelry). DLP does not have them or a Penny Arcade. Fought violently and vocally but still lost. Why? The square footage is so valuable they won't let you have it. It's like Times Square. When you look at the relatively low numbers of guests that comment or see that stuff, it's hard to win the argument. If the space is empty and you can sell a stuffed Dalmation in it, then they test it and it makes lots of money then you're dead and the vignette of the Firehouse is compromised. (I know, it's part of the ambience and that is the show. I'm not defending just explaining reality). But the pressure then was for everything to sell, and that made it very tough to fight for the show but you had to (makes you very unpopular with management). Back in the "20% growth" days it was extreme pressure from the top on all of us, so that drove lots of this. Not fun back then.
I think shops like the current "Fortousity" on MSUSA at Disneyland are a gesture back into that direction where an eclectic format is developed to appear like there is variety. BTW, my stories are from a decade ago, I have no idea what progress they have made. Tony back in charge of DL is a good thing and he negotiates hard for theme in merchandise and is very involved, suggesting products himself. WDW is unknown to me. The players are different. SQS works very hard to make the shops as good as they can be.
To me, the sad thing is that merchandise over the years will go with WDI and do lots of custom stuff and really try to sync things thematically only to fail. This does not help the plush wars. DCA had lots of great stuff when it opened. Toys out of the rides on Paradise Pier, all kinds of custom unique items. I recall being impressed by all they had done, same for the 50th Disneyland (but that stuff sold like mad). The problem is that the DCA rides themselves as well as the park wasn't popular, as it's all gone now. So the merchandise folks bet along with WDI and sometimes lose.
I think in the case of the Antiques Stores, I recall many years ago that the original buyer for those wares, either died or quit, but they didn't know how to proceed or more likely did not want to. The stock slowly dwindled. I don't quite get the eBay argument as then it's easier to buy for the shop now than ever. Antiques are impulse items as if they are bought well, they are truly "One of a kind" and will sell. Sid's had a friendship ring given to John Barrymore by Errol Flynn with their initials on it. It was "One of a kind" and amazing. That's it, one only. Buy it or don't. Just holding it made my day and gave the Boulevard street cred. Collectables are eBay comparable and that is an issue.
When I was down at DL (VP working for TB) Tony Baxter had a very good idea long ago that we negotiated with the merchandise folks. The issue at the time (the 90s) was that all stores had to perform to a similar bottom line. No store could "lose" money by definition (which is ridiculous when you compete with yourself). What this was doing was putting undue pressure on heavily themed "show" shops, like an antique shop or a perfume store when compared to a T Shirt Shop. Tony wanted the whole merchandise $$ pie seen as one and then we would classify each shop as an A ,B, or C store by performance. We would give them more free reign to merchandise the C class "volume" Emporium (plush and shirts) and push that if they gave in and let us do more show with more display in an A low volume "Show" store. We staked out the territory and everyone respected the turf to a degree.
IMHO this worked well initially until the slippery slope of class definition, product or management change crept in and enforcement eroded over time. (The "One of a kind" Shop was selling pictures frames by the hundred, so we called it the "Ton of a Kind" LOL ). DL Main Street has a pretty good variety of Disney product contained in well themed spaces. Could it be better? Sure. We still have a Cinema and a Firehouse. Any new park has those spaces on the kill list (HKDL just lost theirs to Jewelry). DLP does not have them or a Penny Arcade. Fought violently and vocally but still lost. Why? The square footage is so valuable they won't let you have it. It's like Times Square. When you look at the relatively low numbers of guests that comment or see that stuff, it's hard to win the argument. If the space is empty and you can sell a stuffed Dalmation in it, then they test it and it makes lots of money then you're dead and the vignette of the Firehouse is compromised. (I know, it's part of the ambience and that is the show. I'm not defending just explaining reality). But the pressure then was for everything to sell, and that made it very tough to fight for the show but you had to (makes you very unpopular with management). Back in the "20% growth" days it was extreme pressure from the top on all of us, so that drove lots of this. Not fun back then.
I think shops like the current "Fortousity" on MSUSA at Disneyland are a gesture back into that direction where an eclectic format is developed to appear like there is variety. BTW, my stories are from a decade ago, I have no idea what progress they have made. Tony back in charge of DL is a good thing and he negotiates hard for theme in merchandise and is very involved, suggesting products himself. WDW is unknown to me. The players are different. SQS works very hard to make the shops as good as they can be.
To me, the sad thing is that merchandise over the years will go with WDI and do lots of custom stuff and really try to sync things thematically only to fail. This does not help the plush wars. DCA had lots of great stuff when it opened. Toys out of the rides on Paradise Pier, all kinds of custom unique items. I recall being impressed by all they had done, same for the 50th Disneyland (but that stuff sold like mad). The problem is that the DCA rides themselves as well as the park wasn't popular, as it's all gone now. So the merchandise folks bet along with WDI and sometimes lose.
Missing20K
Well-Known Member
You're well of knowledge is deep, invaluable and much appreciated. Please post more often, I love your insider stories....Thanks again!
Fade_to_Blah
Member
I second that. I really enjoy reading your posts
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I hope I'm not quoting out of context, but it depends who's intention you are talking about. If that was true, there would not have been a WDW Barber Shop, Firehouse or Walt Disney Story. IMHO "1900 America" is not a relevant or nostalgic theme to the audience like it was in the 50's, so it has all too often defaulted to be a generic design style for anything Disney. When you don't know what to do, you enamel and pinstripe it, then it's Disney sans meaning or story. I worked on two MS's and we fought to keep them balanced between story and commerce as much as we had the power to. You can argue that MSUSA's in general are nothing more than a mall (I'd agree to a point) but our intent was not to start there and to resist that. There is still a certain amount of rich show in DLP and DL. (Shhh...the way to do this is to make the show stuff too expensive to remove!)
Remember, Disneyland invented the idea of stores interconnecting behind the facades that the real world actually copied later, it was an accidental retail breakthrough (Why? because you entered one store for a shirt and then the space bled into a jewelry store and you bought something there unconsciously). The extreme that occurs today is that the pleasant, eclectic variety promised by the colorful exterior facades is undermined when it's betrayed by a monolitic single interior of generic product. It is kind of unsatisfying. The same thing happened when I went to some small quaint town in Cape Cod, only to find the GAP and Jamba Juice inside the historic exteriors.
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
This is likely the reason why Old World Antiques was closed at WDW. The store ever turned a profit in it's existence, but still lasted for more then 2 decades because of the old Disney logic of putting on a good show because you have the money to do so.
The new logic may sound like a good "business" concept, but it sends a negative psychological message to the guest. What's so special about one store if it sells stuff you can get at several dozen other outlets? And not just Disney ones at that, I'm sure many stores sell Hanna Montanna CDs. If all the stores are in actuality competing with each other why would it make sense to sell the same stuff everywhere? How many copies of that CD will 1 family buy?
The stores add alot to the positioning of the Disney image. You're local Six Flags doesn't sell antiques, perfume and glassware does it? And neither will your local strip mall for the most part.
The point of Disney influencing those malls, is a very valid point. You can clearly see the influences in mall and public spaces, where storefronts are meant to have a chosesive, pleasing look, there's background music that plays, there's greenery and fountains the walkways are wider and streets are meant for peple not cars etc.
The gap between Main Street and your outdoor mall is lessening. Disney still has the edge, but it's not as revolutionary as it once was. That's why it's important for Disney to push what it can do with themeing and quality of merch to make it more special like it once was.
HMF
Well-Known Member
That's what John L. seems to want.
MousDad
New Member
To hear TWDC talk, the only thing that seems to matter at the parks as far as them being profitable is food & merch sales.
As such, I would expect that whatever kind of merchandise turns the best profit will be the single determining factor as to what kind of merchandise is sold in the shops.
And I would be highly surprised if John L could do anything about it.
As such, I would expect that whatever kind of merchandise turns the best profit will be the single determining factor as to what kind of merchandise is sold in the shops.
And I would be highly surprised if John L could do anything about it.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
When I was down at the park (1992?), I was on a walk thru with merchandise and they said that the New Century Clock shop business was down and they wanted a new concept. We looked at the store and it was a mixed bag of generic Seiko wall clocks and Disney timepieces but nothing stood out.
I made the suggestion that they sort out the generic stuff and make this the greatest Mickey Mouse watch shop in the world. After all, you'd expect to find the complete selection at the park. There would also be a museum display with vintage Ingersolls, all of them back to the very first one, courtesy the archives and how giving you kid their first MM watch was a Disney tradition. Make it special. We would then have an artist in the window drawing any character you want and we would personalize it to your kid and make it the watch face. You get the art too. Only at DL. Then you'd see a watchmaker in the window assembling the watches by hand. That is part of the story of MS "when things were made by hand". A good show in the window.
The character stuff was a slam dunk, but of course, the artist thing was hard to deal with, a pain to manage, and a tough sell. They said a watch could only retail for 75 bucks tops (yeah right, with original art!). Now they range from 125 to 500). With some arm twisting and finally then President Frank Wells forcing them to test it, it was tested and they and production was back ordered for three months from 3 days business. That did it. The interesting thing was that the mere presence of the watch artist and watch maker in the window caused the rest of the store to increase overall by 30%!
The point is that "special" sells and has an effect on other stuff as it draws a crowd. (Special is not routed wood signs or painting a t-shirt like at the fair.) I think the "watch artist" is in three parks now ;-)
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