Economy does in Fantasyland

[tirian]

I hear they'd fed the birds with their tuppence instead of investing it.

Stupid kids.

 

[WDW1974]

I'm not trying to make you eat your own words, really. But a couple days ago you said not to expect anything of substance before the 40th, except for Mermaid possibly. Wouldn't ^^^ qualify as something major before the 40th, or were you referring to MK only?

Separate question not directed to you only - what's the word on the street RE: Potterland? How come we never hear rumors of cutbacks, budget problems, etc for Uni? Does it still seem to be living up to its original billing, or has it been so tightly under wraps from the start that nobody knows?

First, I am more than willing to eat my words if there's a need ... I don't personally consider updating a simulator attraction (which was sold to guests as a great technology that could and would be changed regularly) as a major change. A significant plussing to an existing attraction, perhaps.

But at some point it all becomes semantics.

I feel WDW has largely WalMarted itself as a resort and allowed its parks (with the exception of DAK ... and to a lesser extent EPCOT) to become stale.

As to IOA's Wizarding World of HP, everything I have seen and heard suggests this will be a huge wonderful addition to the Orlando parks landscape and WILL pull guests away from Disney if only for a day (and that is HUGE to the Mouse financially whether folks choose to believe it or not). If it exposes them to more of the wonders of Uni and everything beyond the magic of Disney property, which it also is sure to do to some extent, it will put a world of Hogwarts Hurting on the Mouse. Sorry to all the Disney geeks who can't except reality in advance.

But to answer the question, yes, it does appear to be living up to its original billing.

 

[WDW1974]

Why should anyone be worried about Universal? :shrug: Universal is not (or at least should not) be any worry for Disney, as they should not be considered competition. ...

As long as Universal remains a day or two destination, then they pose no threat whatsoever to Disney. Period. And I don't care how many improvements they put into their existing parks.

This is the 'tude that many mindless dolts in TDO have.

It isn't realistic at all for reasons I have already posted.

Once people see there's a world beyond Disney property, and one with many better options for entertainment, dining, lodging and shopping, the Mouse is in big trouble.

And so far Universal hasn't had a big enough pull to truly make the serious dent in Disney's coffers ... but Potter is a game-changer. And everyone, with the exception of some of Disney's 'leadership' team can see this and see what's coming.

Let Disney keep selling marketing magic over magical substance. It's worked for quite a while, but that's all gonna change soon.

Those ballons, banners and free B-Day tix are a very ________ poor substitute for new attractions and fresh entertainment.

 

[WDW1974]

I am curious as to why you think it is a mirage.

Theme parks aside...what exists today in Dubai, and also what is under construction, is of stunning scale and quality. Multipurpose buildings, hotels, malls, etc far exceeding anything in the US.

The leaders in UAE know well that oil will run out...and that is exactly why they have focused on turning their country into a financial, tourist, and transportation hub...so that there are self-generating sources of income when the black gold is gone. While there are real problems in the Middle East, people in Europe and Asia tend to be far more knowledgeable about the realities and nuances there...and in general do not harbor the same reservations that Americans have in visiting a place like the UAE.

If WDW wants to focus on the domestic market, it will continue to do well. However, that won't be case if they are counting on foreign visitors...except perhaps the ones from Latin America. I for one, do believe that Dubailand is very close to becoming reality, and when it does, it will give European and Asian guests significant pause before deciding to come all the way to FL.

I'm just going to say that any country that has as its bedrock a group of religious fundamentalists who want to live in the Dark Ages isn't a place most modern, thinking westerners will visit (and yeah, that means Europeans as well as Americans).

Not to mention that all of those gleaming towers are great terrorist targets for all the fundamentalists who are very, very, very, very unhappy about the UAE's attempts at westernization.

It's all a giant mirage. Great to look at, to be sure. But a mirage ... and in a very unpleasant place.

It isn't going to affect WDW in any major way at all.

 

[WDW1974]

I don't see how anyone could call Everest, or many of the other additions on that list, "not substantive".

Brian, most of your list was of things that opened or debuted in 2005 or earlier (many in 2003). It's almost 2009.

Everest is the last major addition and is definitely substanitive. It would be a great attraction if management gave a damn about running it with more than 20% of its effects operating. (someone needs to barrage Val Bunting and Erin Wallace with nasty email, methinks)

But Everest opened in January of 2006. That's almost three years now.

And the MK? That last major attraction of an Everest caliber would be Splash Mountain ... that opened in 1992. Think about that. 16 years ago!

Has there been enough attention paid to MK? I'd agree with you that the answer is "no", despite the excellent work done on Mansion. Has there been substantive attention paid to the four parks as a whole? I'd disagree with you, and answer "yes".

We're still free to disagree ... at least I think so (need to go read the Patriot Act).

I don't feel there's been nearly enough attention paid to the parks.

The past decade has been more about having one marketing promotion after another from the Millennium to 100 Years of Walt to Magical Gatherings to Happiest Celebration to the Two Years of Two Million Dreams to now What Will You Celebrate?

Who knows how many millions have been spent on marketing nothing of substance?

No, only that they define a rewarding vacation less narrowly than you appear to. You appear to be concerned only with MK, and then paint the entire Resort with that brush. The sense I get from the casual Disney "fan" (guests that come annually) is that they view the Resort in its entirety. There are parts of the Resort that do better on the "detail score" than others, true, but it's hardly been abandoned. The queues for Toy Story and Everest, for example, speak to that.

It's too late (or early) for the indepth response I'd like to give, but I assure you I am concerned with all of WDW, not simply the MK ... although as a friend pointed out, it is the heart and right now it is suffering a severe case of cardio-myopothy (sp?)

And, please, let's not talk queues ... they may be nice or not, but they are waiting areas largely. Kali River Rapids, one of the worst attractions at WDW, has a wonderful queue. It still sucks!

 

[MousDad]

First, I am more than willing to eat my words if there's a need ... I don't personally consider updating a simulator attraction (which was sold to guests as a great technology that could and would be changed regularly) as a major change. A significant plussing to an existing attraction, perhaps.

But at some point it all becomes semantics.

Thanks again for the clarification. Sounds like it was semantics then. I was interpreting your statement differently. So you were referring only to a new, major E ticket?

Can we interpret from this, then, that things such as Star Tours, Journey, Space Mountain, and other rumored updates may still take place by the 40th? Those are major to alot of people around here.

What about the MI coaster, and Lee's suggestion that a new attraction is breaking ground imminently at DAK?

 

[sbkline]

This is the 'tude that many mindless dolts in TDO have.

It isn't realistic at all for reasons I have already posted.

Once people see there's a world beyond Disney property, and one with many better options for entertainment, dining, lodging and shopping, the Mouse is in big trouble.

And so far Universal hasn't had a big enough pull to truly make the serious dent in Disney's coffers ... but Potter is a game-changer. And everyone, with the exception of some of Disney's 'leadership' team can see this and see what's coming.

Let Disney keep selling marketing magic over magical substance. It's worked for quite a while, but that's all gonna change soon.

Those ballons, banners and free B-Day tix are a very ________ poor substitute for new attractions and fresh entertainment.

Like I said...it may cause Joe Shmoe to leave the Beach Club for the day and visit Universal instead of Epcot. But come 3 or 4 PM, when he's done touring Universal, he's gonna come back to the Beach Club, jump in the pool or take a nap, then he'll be ready to go out for supper...at a Disney restaraunt. Or to go into a Disney park for the evening (he's probably got an admission pass for every night of his stay and doesn't mind going into Epcot for only 4 hours)...or go play mini-golf at Fantasia Gardens...or do some shopping at Downtown Disney.

Again...these changes at Universal may attract more day guests, such as ones who will take a day out of their Disney trip and go offsite for activities, or locals who are looking for an outing on their day off work. But there have always been lots of people staying at Disney who go offsite during part of their trips, and as far as local day guests, WDW seems to be more interested in attracting vacationers from far away than it is in appealing to day guests (although this latest birthday deal may appeal more to locals). But it won't steal vacationers from the Walt Disney Company. No one is going to scrap a week at POR to stay at the Hardrock Hotel just because of PotterLand. Until Universal can aquire 40 square miles of land and develop an entire resort capable of competing with the WDW resort as a whole (and not just one silly land in one theme park), then the worst that's gonna happen is you're gonna have more guests at the WDW resort going off property for a day, only to come back and eat supper at a Disney restaraunt and lay their heads down on a Disney pillow that night, ready to hit the Magic Kingdom the next day. And again...if someone gets up in the morning and has breakfast at their WDW foodcourt, then goes to Universal for the day, then comes back to their WDW resort for the evening....so what? How's that a threat to Disney? Universal still has a long way to go before Disney has to worry about people booking a week at a Universal hotel rather than a WDW hotel.

Universal poses no real threat to Disney. None.

 

[marni1971]

Universal poses no real threat to Disney. None.

Attendence wise maybe, but image and dermographic wise more than you`d think. A cutting edge resort, less cutesy and more thrilling and more in your face than Disney. Geeky show quality items aside, speaking as a foriegner here a lot of people I know all want to go to Universal since it is more `adult` overall than Disney. IOAs coasters. Jaws. The Mummy. The Simpsons. Even Disaster. They are all known over here by the average guest. And Spiderman is a buzz word for `must see` with my work collegues - including some who have never been to IOA. Everest was in part an answer to The Hulk and DD but in a Disney way. Space Mountains proposed makeover was a direct result of Rip Ride and Rocket. The DAK project is a counter attack on Potterland. Universal is growing and Disney are all too aware of it. Economy aside since it is a temporary issue (not said lightly) Universal isn`t going to stop in the near future. The plots of land on the South West of their property are already greenlit to build out the resort as a whole. There are eyes on one or two existing USF and IOA attractions and areas to use. Uni are good at reinventing themselves. Look what has changed in 18 years. And now Disney handed them the evening 18-30 crowds for City Walk they`ll be laughing all the way to the bank.

I`ve said it before - the best thing for us and for the Disney parks is for Universal to continue to be a threat.

 

[VT GAL]

Martin, I totally agree with you!!!

I hope that Uni's success is great, because it will hopefully force Disney to get off of laurels and get to work doing what they do best!!!

 

[dandaman]

Stupid kids.

:lol:

Agree with Martin. If competition is healthy, then Universal might just be Disney's defibrillator...

 

[Rosso11]

No one is going to scrap a week at POR to stay at the Hardrock Hotel just because of PotterLand. Until Universal can aquire 40 square miles of land and develop an entire resort capable of competing with the WDW resort as a whole (and not just one silly land in one theme park), then the worst that's gonna happen is you're gonna have more guests at the WDW resort going off property for a day, only to come back and eat supper at a Disney restaraunt and lay their heads down on a Disney pillow that night, ready to hit the Magic Kingdom the next day. And again...if someone gets up in the morning and has breakfast at their WDW foodcourt, then goes to Universal for the day, then comes back to their WDW resort for the evening....so what? How's that a threat to Disney? Universal still has a long way to go before Disney has to worry about people booking a week at a Universal hotel rather than a WDW hotel.

Universal poses no real threat to Disney. None.

Universal is a threat and a big one. Yes more than likely Disney will get a piece of most vacationers but its the size of the piece that is the threat. For the first time I am hearing people planning vacations around Universal and not Disney. They are planning on staying at Universal Resorts for the first time when potter opens, which have beautiful resorts, especially Portofino which rivals any Disney resort. I have asked a few of these people I talked too if they planned on going to Disney also. They responded with "if we have extra time we'll try to go." Wow, thats when I realized the roles had just reversed for these people. This was always the response when talking about Universal not Disney. Of course this will not be everyone but I've heard this from enough people to realize there are a lot of people out there thinking like this for the first time. Then there's all of the vacationers on Disney property who will want to leave to visit Universal even if just for a day. This might not sound like a big deal to you but to Disney it is huge. Disney has spent the last 20 years trying to do everything in its power to keep people on property and not leave. Vacation lengths are not growing, if anything they are decreasing, especially with the world economy. Disney has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to keep everyone on property for their entire vacations. If enough people leave, even for a day thats going to hurt in a big way.

 

[Silvermist]

AMEC built the track. So it's partially correct.

Either way, comparing coasters is very subjective. That's all I'm trying to get at. You like DL's, I like MK's. At least for now. :animwink:

Every individual has their own perspective on virtually everything, however, I don't see how anyone can look at and ride WDW SM and say it's fine, leave it alone. It's gotten so shabby! It's old and worn out and it shows everywhere you look. I'm not saying change Space Mountain to something else. No one here is saying that, but it does need to be FULLY rehab'd. The ride should be as smooth as possible to complete the illusion of flying through space and it needs to be pitch dark with some visuals using current available technologies. The sound added in DL's version definitely enhances the experience, adding drama. I've ridden both in recent years. I already knew WDW's version was in sad shape and needed a rehab bad, but after we went on DL's new version, going on WDW's just made me sick. And I don't even want to think of what kind of safety issues may be going on in there.

 

[sbkline]

Universal is a threat and a big one. Yes more than likely Disney will get a piece of most vacationers but its the size of the piece that is the threat. For the first time I am hearing people planning vacations around Universal and not Disney. They are planning on staying at Universal Resorts for the first time when potter opens, which have beautiful resorts, especially Portofino which rivals any Disney resort. I have asked a few of these people I talked too if they planned on going to Disney also. They responded with "if we have extra time we'll try to go." Wow, thats when I realized the roles had just reversed for these people. This was always the response when talking about Universal not Disney. Of course this will not be everyone but I've heard this from enough people to realize there are a lot of people out there thinking like this for the first time. Then there's all of the vacationers on Disney property who will want to leave to visit Universal even if just for a day. This might not sound like a big deal to you but to Disney it is huge. Disney has spent the last 20 years trying to do everything in its power to keep people on property and not leave. Vacation lengths are not growing, if anything they are decreasing, especially with the world economy. Disney has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to keep everyone on property for their entire vacations. If enough people leave, even for a day thats going to hurt in a big way.

As far as all these people suddenly planning on staying at Universal Resorts, I may be wrong, but I think most of that has to be chalked up to initial curiosity about this new addition. But, IMO, it won't cause many frequent return visits. And I don't say that as a Universal hater. I enjoyed Universal when we went and I do hope to go back again. But I say that out of a realistic observation that, HP Land notwithstanding, Universal is not a one week destination. It's a two or three day destination at best. We did both parks by mid afternoon. So sure, many people may be curious about PotterLand and are planning to come down for a week and stay at a Universal resort, and sure, they may only be planning on visiting WDW "if they have the time". And I guarantee, they will have the time. After seeing all there is to see at Universal in two days, they're gonna be wondering what to do with the remaining five days there, and I bet WDW will be a top candidate on the list. They may go home talking about how awesome Universal was and how great all the rides were, but they'll probably realize that there just isn't enough there to warrant an entire week's stay.

Once HP Land opens, there will be that surge in business as everyone comes to check out this new attraction and to see what all the hubbub is about. But eventually, people's curiosity will be satisfied and it will become apparent that Universal may have some awesome rides, but that it is more of a weekend getaway destination than a weeklong vacation destination. Until they can compete with Disney on that front, then I don't see them as a threat.

As far as Disney doing all they can to keep people on property, that may be true, but IMO, that's more out of sheer greed than out of any genuine concern for losing money. If I'm staying for 8 nights at a Disney resort and one of those days I spend going to Universal, or to the Florida Mall, or to the beach or whatever, no matter how much money I spend off property, they're still getting my money for the day for that bed I'm gonna sleep in tonight and whatever money I may spend on property before or after the day's activities off property. That money that I spend off property may or may not have all been spent on property had we stayed on property all day. But I think Disney is getting plenty of money from me already and for them to be concerned about that extra money that got spent at the Mall (or Universal or wherever else), is simply out of greed and the inability to be satisfied with what they have gotten out of me already, and not out of any real need for those extra dollars in order to stay afloat.

 

[Rosso11]

As far as all these people suddenly planning on staying at Universal Resorts, I may be wrong, but I think most of that has to be chalked up to initial curiosity about this new addition. But, IMO, it won't cause many frequent return visits. And I don't say that as a Universal hater. I enjoyed Universal when we went and I do hope to go back again. But I say that out of a realistic observation that, HP Land notwithstanding, Universal is not a one week destination. It's a two or three day destination at best. We did both parks by mid afternoon. So sure, many people may be curious about PotterLand and are planning to come down for a week and stay at a Universal resort, and sure, they may only be planning on visiting WDW "if they have the time". And I guarantee, they will have the time. After seeing all there is to see at Universal in two days, they're gonna be wondering what to do with the remaining five days there, and I bet WDW will be a top candidate on the list. They may go home talking about how awesome Universal was and how great all the rides were, but they'll probably realize that there just isn't enough there to warrant an entire week's stay.

Once HP Land opens, there will be that surge in business as everyone comes to check out this new attraction and to see what all the hubbub is about. But eventually, people's curiosity will be satisfied and it will become apparent that Universal may have some awesome rides, but that it is more of a weekend getaway destination than a weeklong vacation destination. Until they can compete with Disney on that front, then I don't see them as a threat.

As far as Disney doing all they can to keep people on property, that may be true, but IMO, that's more out of sheer greed than out of any genuine concern for losing money. If I'm staying for 8 nights at a Disney resort and one of those days I spend going to Universal, or to the Florida Mall, or to the beach or whatever, no matter how much money I spend off property, they're still getting my money for the day for that bed I'm gonna sleep in tonight and whatever money I may spend on property before or after the day's activities off property. That money that I spend off property may or may not have all been spent on property had we stayed on property all day. But I think Disney is getting plenty of money from me already and for them to be concerned about that extra money that got spent at the Mall (or Universal or wherever else), is simply out of greed and the inability to be satisfied with what they have gotten out of me already, and not out of any real need for those extra dollars in order to stay afloat.

I agree with you that a lot of this will be initial curiosity. Its Universal's job to keep the people coming back and that depends on the quality of the product. So far by all indications the quality will be there and they plan to keep investing into the parks and not slow down now like Disney. I think Universal learned from their mistake with IOA when it first opened and didn't reinvest into that park for such long time. Now as far as your argument about Universal only being "a two or three day destination at best" so it wont hurt Disney, thats fundamentally flawed. The problem is your looking at this entirely though your own vacation. You are lucky that you are able to spend 8 night at Disney world because you are in the minority. The average stay at Disney World is 4 nights. So this would mean Universal would now take up half of their vacation time and half of their money. That is the problem for Disney

 

[OFTeric]

HP Land notwithstanding, Universal is not a one week destination. It's a two or three day destination at best.

One thing that you and others are not taking into account is the fact that when booking a Universal Vacation, they are bundling in days at Wet N' Wild, SeaWorld and Aquatica.

So really you have the 2 Universal parks, and 2 Waterpaks and SeaWorld to occupy your time. There is aggressive marketing and effort between Universal Orlando and SeaWorld Orlando to create their own week long vacation.

 

[stitch2008]

Thanks again for the clarification. Sounds like it was semantics then. I was interpreting your statement differently. So you were referring only to a new, major E ticket?

Can we interpret from this, then, that things such as Star Tours, Journey, Space Mountain, and other rumored updates may still take place by the 40th? Those are major to alot of people around here.

What about the MI coaster, and Lee's suggestion that a new attraction is breaking ground imminently at DAK?

That would be great if we still got Star Tours, Imagination, and Space Mountain for the 40th. I'm also wondering about the MI coaster and the DAK attraction.

 

[sbkline]

I agree with you that a lot of this will be initial curiosity. Its Universal's job to keep the people coming back and that depends on the quality of the product. So far by all indications the quality will be there and they plan to keep investing into the parks and not slow down now like Disney. I think Universal learned from their mistake with IOA when it first opened and didn't reinvest into that park for such long time. Now as far as your argument about Universal only being "a two or three day destination at best" so it wont hurt Disney, thats fundamentally flawed. The problem is your looking at this entirely though your own vacation. You are lucky that you are able to spend 8 night at Disney world because you are in the minority. The average stay at Disney World is 4 nights. So this would mean Universal would now take up half of their vacation time and half of their money. That is the problem for Disney

One thing that you and others are not taking into account is the fact that when booking a Universal Vacation, they are bundling in days at Wet N' Wild, SeaWorld and Aquatica.

So really you have the 2 Universal parks, and 2 Waterpaks and SeaWorld to occupy your time. There is aggressive marketing and effort between Universal Orlando and SeaWorld Orlando to create their own week long vacation.

Both good points I must admit. I suppose many of us tend to view things through the lenses of out own experiences and I'm used to taking vacations that are at least a week long and, therefore, assume that that's the norm. I suppose for those who are only going for 4 days, they may stay on Universal property and go off property to WDW for a couple days just as easily as they could stay on WDW property and visit Universal for a couple days. And I forgot all about those flex tickets that you mentioned.

 

[hoke2007]

I'm really bummed out about this move. When I first heard about the Fantasyland update, I was super excited. I can't remember the last time I was that excited. Then I read that Disney has decided to push back those plans, or cancel them all together. At the same time, DCA is getter $1 billion in improvements. It just isn't fair. WDW has gotten the shaft far too many times. First it appears that the Space Mountain rehab, which was going to be amazing, gets cut down into a very dismal rehab. And now they are walking away from major improvements for Fantasyland. It's disappointing. Very disappointing.


Sorry for the rant. I'm just so upset about Disney giving WDW a cold shoulder.

 

[FutureBelle93]

I'm really bummed out about this move. When I first heard about the Fantasyland update, I was super excited. I can't remember the last time I was that excited. Then I read that Disney has decided to push back those plans, or cancel them all together. At the same time, DCA is getter $1 billion in improvements. It just isn't fair. WDW has gotten the shaft far too many times. First it appears that the Space Mountain rehab, which was going to be amazing, gets cut down into a very dismal rehab. And now they are walking away from major improvements for Fantasyland. It's disappointing. Very disappointing.


Sorry for the rant. I'm just so upset about Disney giving WDW a cold shoulder.

Same. I mean i know Disneyland is the first park and what-not but WDW needs to have some major TLC, not clones of Disneylands rides. Fantasyland needs some love, i mean its gotten to a point where its just what i walk through to get to Haunted Mansion or Tommarowland. I remember the Fantasyland when we had a huge Ariels Grotto with the lake and the skyway, there was no pooh near it! Im sorry for all the pooh lovers out there but if they put another pooh thing in im going to pull my hair out. Space Mountain needs some love too! All the other parks have gotten new Space Mountains, why cant we? Gosh it seems WDW always gets passed over and all the other parks get the goodies....

 

[hoke2007]

Same. I mean i know Disneyland is the first park and what-not but WDW needs to have some major TLC, not clones of Disneylands rides. Fantasyland needs some love, i mean its gotten to a point where its just what i walk through to get to Haunted Mansion or Tommarowland. I remember the Fantasyland when we had a huge Ariels Grotto with the lake and the skyway, there was no pooh near it! Im sorry for all the pooh lovers out there but if they put another pooh thing in im going to pull my hair out. Space Mountain needs some love too! All the other parks have gotten new Space Mountains, why cant we? Gosh it seems WDW always gets passed over and all the other parks get the goodies....

I think that the company either thinks that:

1) people will go to WDW no matter what, so what's the point in pouring tons of money into the parks?
2) with the bad economic times we have, WDW is in trouble and their isn't anything we can do to fix it.


WDW is in need of new attractions and extensive rehabs. After IASW got its long rehab, I thought that it was the beginning of a wonderful period at WDW. Then came the HM rehab. But now they are back to their old tricks of cutting back rehabs and slashing budgets for WDW and giving Disneyland tons of money to spend on whatever they wish.

It's a shame that they turn their backs on WDW...