Do you think that Disney world will reclose its gates due to the rising number of COVID cases in Florida and around the country?

GoofGoof

Premium Member
The similarities between thousands of people packed in an arena and the way the parks are currently operating are really striking! [/Sarcasm]
The similarity is people from around the country are intentionally traveling into a hot spot for a reason that isn’t essential or necessary. I’m not saying WDW should shut down based on that criteria alone, but when POTUS says directly that one of the reasons he cancelled the RNC is that he feels it is wrong to have people travel from all over the country into a hot spot that does call into question whether people should be traveling into the same hot spot for a theme park. It has nothing to do with the nature of the theme park vs a convention or the safety protocols involved, just the idea of traveling into the area in general. It’s fair to disagree with him, god knows I usually do.
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
Only have read that is a hot spot. Every article I read says that. Again I ask why they cancelled when day after day I read here the only problem in Florida is Miami. Did you read something different then what I saw?

Duval County is a hot spot compared to some other counties, and other parts of the country, but is not anywhere near the levels of the Miami area.

Duval County most recent stats: 18, 159 cases, 521 hospitalizations, 113 deaths, 198 non-resident cases. Dade County most recent stats 94,252 cases, 4939 hospitalizations, 1354 deaths, 816 non-residents. Broward and Palm beach counties have significantly higher numbers than Duval county. If you are familiar with the Miami area, you know that the counties blend into one another. In total thay have approximately 200,000 of the state's 300,000 cases.

There are some more rural counties that have a much higher infection rate because they are farming areas - with worker's barracks. And others house prisons - one prison in Columbia County has over 900 cases.

Lack of funds to provide adequate police resources to handle expected protestors was the major issue.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
That's what I figured. She's "trusted" by people who thought Florida was faking numbers when they were good even though her real issue was that the dashboard didn't show non residents in the charts. I'll have to dig up the source report and not take her word for how things are counted.

As an aside, she is using data that anybody can access for her alternative dashboard. She isn't exposing anything that is "hidden."
She reported the things the state dashboard didn't. The only sources are public, it is displayed here and not on the state dashboard. Go to the testing page
 

chrisvee

Well-Known Member
This is a huge pet peeve of mine also. They don't even mention the confidence level. You just assume they are using 95% but the media doesn't explain that either.

They say something like the margin of error for the poll is +/- 3%. What they don't say is that if there is a 95% confidence interval, it means that the publishers of the poll results are 95% confident that the actual "answer" to the question is within 3% of the poll results. There is still a 5% chance that the actual "answer" is outside of that margin of error.
exactly we really need to teach statistics in high school
 

Miss Bella

Well-Known Member
The similarity is people from around the country are intentionally traveling into a hot spot for a reason that isn’t essential or necessary. I’m not saying WDW should shut down based on that criteria alone, but when POTUS says directly that one of the reasons he cancelled the RNC is that he feels it is wrong to have people travel from all over the country into a hot spot that does call into question whether people should be traveling into the same hot spot for a theme park. It has nothing to do with the nature of the theme park vs a convention or the safety protocols involved, just the idea of traveling into the area in general. It’s fair to disagree with him, god knows I usually do.
I'm still going.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm still going.
I’m not advocating anyone go or don’t go. The other poster that I replied to said there wasn’t a similarity between a convention and going to WDW. I was just pointing out that one aspect that is similar is that people from all over the country would be traveling into a hot spot to go. Some people feel that it’s “wrong“ to do that, apparently including the president. I’m sure there are many people who don’t have a problem with it.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I think 500 cases in a county with a population of 1.3 million would be considered doing well.
I think it’s all relative to what you compare it to. For example based on the criteria that PA set for moving to green status the equivalent number of daily cases for a county with 1.3M people would be about 50 per day. My county has slightly less population than Orange County in FL but we are averaging around 40 new cases a day. Percent positive is under 5% so not from lack of testing.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
I continue to try to make 1 main post per day...

A 9-year-old in Florida died from Covid, the fifth minor to die in the state. All during an extended period where schools have been closed.

Yes, the mortality rate among children is extremely low. They are much lower risk than elderly populations. But the death of a 9-year-old is much more painful for society than the death of a 90-year-old.

If schools open without proper infection precautions... It's very easy to imagine those 5 deaths becoming 50 deaths or more.
Yes, that's a very very low percentage of all the children. But it's still a very high death rate for children.
Imagine, there was a highly credible threat that there would be an active shooter terrorizing an elementary school in Florida tomorrow, but we didn't know which school. Would we still just open all the schools without additional precautions? Would we just say, "well... the active shooter will probably only kill about 50 kids, that's a very small percentage, so who cares."

Florida is insistent that their schools re-open physically. As a parent, I strongly prefer schools re-open for in-person learning. But with caveats: Serious infection control measures must be enforced. Which further means that areas with wide uncontrolled community spread, simply cannot open for in-person learning. (a proper precaution would be a shut down of the classroom or school whenever a student tests positive for infection. If there is wide community spread, that would mean classrooms and schools getting shut down daily).

So how are things in Florida now? Is community spread under control?
Before looking at the data, I find it interesting: A month ago, as cases were quickly rising, the "truthers" were saying, "it's not a big deal, deaths are still low."
Now that deaths are blowing up, the "truthers" are saying, "oh.. the number of cares are starting to decline, so it's well controlled."

The ever shifting goal posts.

So where are things?

Capture.PNG


Most recent data as of last night. Cases have started to decline over the last few days, but testing has also declined by nearly the exact same margins. Thus, it's premature to conclude whether cases are truly starting to decline, or have simply plateaued. What you want to see is cases dropping while testing increases.

I previously explained why hospitalizations might be the best real-time measure of the state of the covid situation. Here we see the 7-day average continues to increase in Florida, though there has been a slight decline over the last 3-4 days.

Thus, it's still too early to tell. But it appears this wave in Florida may have peaked and may be starting to decline.

But that brings us to the bigger danger. Many people, experts and laypeople, excepted Covid might have seasonality like the flu -- On one extreme there was, "it will magically disappear in April," but even many experts were hoping the transmission might be noticeably reduced during the summer. The same factors that reduce flu transmission during the summer are also at play for Covid.
I remember as cases declined in May, there was chatter to the effect of, "we may be ok for a while, but we have to watch out for another wave in the fall."

Well.. it turns out we didn't get the summer off. But *if* this was the "low season" period for Covid, then how bad might things get in the fall?!?
And the danger for places like Florida and other areas with currently high numbers... even if the numbers start to decline now, there is the danger they will be starting the fall with already high amounts of community spread.

The whole point... "hot spots" that are trying to stay open, including Disney World, are really on very thin ice. The *best* case scenario is that they are at a high level plateau now... and then they have to hope and pray that September-November aren't seasonally more favorable to Covid spread.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
She reported the things the state dashboard didn't. The only sources are public, it is displayed here and not on the state dashboard. Go to the testing page
Her testing page looks incredibly messed up. That chart you posted shows much lower numbers for positives (and negatives) than the state dashboard reports. The only difference in display is the official dashboard only displays the past six weeks and she displays from the beginning.

She also seems to have decided to remove over half the negative test results from her data for some reason. The antibody report isn't on the state dashboard but it is published weekly in a pdf.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
I think 500 cases in a county with a population of 1.3 million would be considered doing well.

I live in a county of 1 million. We are now averaging 30-50 cases per day, with a positivity rate of under 1%.
Yet, we still have far more restrictions in place than Florida.

500 cases per day is not doing well in a county of 1.3 million. Because it's too many to contract trace. It's evidence of uncontrolled community transmission.
How many contact tracers are employed by Orange County? Do they have the resources to track down every contact of those 500 positive cases per day? And isolate the closest contacts of all of those 500 people per day, every day.

So while 500 per day is not an unmitigated disaster. It's not "doing well." At best, it's basically treading water as you hope and pray it doesn't get worse.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
I continue to try to make 1 main post per day...

A 9-year-old in Florida died from Covid, the fifth minor to die in the state. All during an extended period where schools have been closed.

Yes, the mortality rate among children is extremely low. They are much lower risk than elderly populations. But the death of a 9-year-old is much more painful for society than the death of a 90-year-old.

If schools open without proper infection precautions... It's very easy to imagine those 5 deaths becoming 50 deaths or more.
Yes, that's a very very low percentage of all the children. But it's still a very high death rate for children.
Imagine, there was a highly credible threat that there would be an active shooter terrorizing an elementary school in Florida tomorrow, but we didn't know which school. Would we still just open all the schools without additional precautions? Would we just say, "well... the active shooter will probably only kill about 50 kids, that's a very small percentage, so who cares."

Florida is insistent that their schools re-open physically. As a parent, I strongly prefer schools re-open for in-person learning. But with caveats: Serious infection control measures must be enforced. Which further means that areas with wide uncontrolled community spread, simply cannot open for in-person learning. (a proper precaution would be a shut down of the classroom or school whenever a student tests positive for infection. If there is wide community spread, that would mean classrooms and schools getting shut down daily).

So how are things in Florida now? Is community spread under control?
Before looking at the data, I find it interesting: A month ago, as cases were quickly rising, the "truthers" were saying, "it's not a big deal, deaths are still low."
Now that deaths are blowing up, the "truthers" are saying, "oh.. the number of cares are starting to decline, so it's well controlled."

The ever shifting goal posts.

So where are things?

View attachment 486023

Most recent data as of last night. Cases have started to decline over the last few days, but testing has also declined by nearly the exact same margins. Thus, it's premature to conclude whether cases are truly starting to decline, or have simply plateaued. What you want to see is cases dropping while testing increases.

I previously explained why hospitalizations might be the best real-time measure of the state of the covid situation. Here we see the 7-day average continues to increase in Florida, though there has been a slight decline over the last 3-4 days.

Thus, it's still too early to tell. But it appears this wave in Florida may have peaked and may be starting to decline.

But that brings us to the bigger danger. Many people, experts and laypeople, excepted Covid might have seasonality like the flu -- On one extreme there was, "it will magically disappear in April," but even many experts were hoping the transmission might be noticeably reduced during the summer. The same factors that reduce flu transmission during the summer are also at play for Covid.
I remember as cases declined in May, there was chatter to the effect of, "we may be ok for a while, but we have to watch out for another wave in the fall."

Well.. it turns out we didn't get the summer off. But *if* this was the "low season" period for Covid, then how bad might things get in the fall?!?
And the danger for places like Florida and other areas with currently high numbers... even if the numbers start to decline now, there is the danger they will be starting the fall with already high amounts of community spread.

The whole point... "hot spots" that are trying to stay open, including Disney World, are really on very thin ice. The *best* case scenario is that they are at a high level plateau now... and then they have to hope and pray that September-November aren't seasonally more favorable to Covid spread.

Yes, the death of a nine year old is very sad. However, a not insignificant number of minors die from the flu and other diseases every year. More than have died from COVID by a lot.

I don't know where the covid tracking project is getting the testing numbers but they don't match the State data at all. Two of the last 3 days were over 100k tests and the third was over 90k. That chart shows recent days at 60k and below.

As far as seasonality goes, the flu is seasonal in part due to people spending time indoors during the winter. It is also partly because enough people get the common strains for that year that aren't included in the flu shot so that those strains hit herd immunity as well.

For the indoor part of the equation, Florida would not expect to be worse in the winter because, if anything, people in Florida spend more time outdoors in the winter when the weather is pleasant.

I still predict that by the middle of August there will be a clear decline in daily cases in Florida and it will return to the steady state that existed prior to the recent spike by the end of August. I think it will happen because a high enough percentage of the population in the hot spots like Miami-Dade will have resistance that it will help to slow the spread significantly like what I believe happened in the northeast hot spots which is why they aren't getting a resurgence now. I don't think young adults in NYC are avoiding private parties any more than they were in Florida.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Also, I would argue the value of in person schooling is far more essential and could be done more safely then say opening restaurants and bars. It says a lot about our society that we prioritized the latter and have now created a situation where the former might not happen this year but we will absolutely not backtrack on reclining the latter.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
Did they also review all the deaths that occurred, that were not counted as COVID to verify that none of them had COVID listed as a contributing factor, that weren't included in the spreadsheet? Because erroneous info can work both ways.

But taking this at face value, of the 581 deaths they looked at, they found 8 erroneous listed. So 1.38% Most data collection comes with a "margin of error." I would think 1.38% would fall into that, and doesn't change the "nature of the beast."

False negatives, false positives. For any large scale system, there will always be mistakes. Innocent people will go to jail, under any system -- but you still send people to jail, just designing the best system you can.
No "testing" system will ever be perfect.

This article explains the process under which they assign Covid deaths in Florida:


So if anything, Florida is erring on the side of not assigning Covid as a cause of death. Surely, there will be cases where they erroneously still assign it as a cause of death. But there are likely to be just as many, if not more, where they don't assign it as a cause of death. (for example, an individual dies at home from respiratory arrest after contact with Covid individuals, but they had never taken a Covid test).
 

Auteur55

New Member
I continue to try to make 1 main post per day...

A 9-year-old in Florida died from Covid, the fifth minor to die in the state. All during an extended period where schools have been closed.

Yes, the mortality rate among children is extremely low. They are much lower risk than elderly populations. But the death of a 9-year-old is much more painful for society than the death of a 90-year-old.

If schools open without proper infection precautions... It's very easy to imagine those 5 deaths becoming 50 deaths or more.
Yes, that's a very very low percentage of all the children. But it's still a very high death rate for children.
Imagine, there was a highly credible threat that there would be an active shooter terrorizing an elementary school in Florida tomorrow, but we didn't know which school. Would we still just open all the schools without additional precautions? Would we just say, "well... the active shooter will probably only kill about 50 kids, that's a very small percentage, so who cares."

Florida is insistent that their schools re-open physically. As a parent, I strongly prefer schools re-open for in-person learning. But with caveats: Serious infection control measures must be enforced. Which further means that areas with wide uncontrolled community spread, simply cannot open for in-person learning. (a proper precaution would be a shut down of the classroom or school whenever a student tests positive for infection. If there is wide community spread, that would mean classrooms and schools getting shut down daily).

So how are things in Florida now? Is community spread under control?
Before looking at the data, I find it interesting: A month ago, as cases were quickly rising, the "truthers" were saying, "it's not a big deal, deaths are still low."
Now that deaths are blowing up, the "truthers" are saying, "oh.. the number of cares are starting to decline, so it's well controlled."

The ever shifting goal posts.

So where are things?

View attachment 486023

Most recent data as of last night. Cases have started to decline over the last few days, but testing has also declined by nearly the exact same margins. Thus, it's premature to conclude whether cases are truly starting to decline, or have simply plateaued. What you want to see is cases dropping while testing increases.

I previously explained why hospitalizations might be the best real-time measure of the state of the covid situation. Here we see the 7-day average continues to increase in Florida, though there has been a slight decline over the last 3-4 days.

Thus, it's still too early to tell. But it appears this wave in Florida may have peaked and may be starting to decline.

But that brings us to the bigger danger. Many people, experts and laypeople, excepted Covid might have seasonality like the flu -- On one extreme there was, "it will magically disappear in April," but even many experts were hoping the transmission might be noticeably reduced during the summer. The same factors that reduce flu transmission during the summer are also at play for Covid.
I remember as cases declined in May, there was chatter to the effect of, "we may be ok for a while, but we have to watch out for another wave in the fall."

Well.. it turns out we didn't get the summer off. But *if* this was the "low season" period for Covid, then how bad might things get in the fall?!?
And the danger for places like Florida and other areas with currently high numbers... even if the numbers start to decline now, there is the danger they will be starting the fall with already high amounts of community spread.

The whole point... "hot spots" that are trying to stay open, including Disney World, are really on very thin ice. The *best* case scenario is that they are at a high level plateau now... and then they have to hope and pray that September-November aren't seasonally more favorable to Covid spread.
I had two kids killed by a truck walking to school by my house. There was also reports a few years ago that we were having a terrible flu season and kids were at risk. I remember some news stories of a child dying from it. When my kid had flu symptoms I remember rushing her in to the doctor. How many kids died from the flu that year was it 50? My point being society didn’t shut down and we didn’t stop everything in our lives to try and combat it to save one life. These things were happening in our society for years we’ve always accepted death as part of operating. Kids are killed in car wrecks every year yet you never bemoaned 5 deaths and said we need to shut down driving or only allow so many cars on the road. The absolutely obsession to stop one risk amongst thousands of risks at the detriment of everything is mind boggling to me.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
Her testing page looks incredibly messed up. That chart you posted shows much lower numbers for positives (and negatives) than the state dashboard reports. The only difference in display is the official dashboard only displays the past six weeks and she displays from the beginning.

She also seems to have decided to remove over half the negative test results from her data for some reason. The antibody report isn't on the state dashboard but it is published weekly in a pdf.
Ignore the charts and focus on the words. That is what this is about.
 

Jedijax719

Well-Known Member
500 cases in a county of 1.3 million? Wow! I mean it should be a concern but that seems VERY low compared to what we have here in the Houston area. In Harris county, we have about 65,000 cases with a population of 3 million. In the entire Houston metro area, it's 100,000 (ish) for 4 million (ish). That's 2% infection rate. We have a LOT of people saying "it's only 2% of the population getting this virus and many are mild. No big deal".
 

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