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Do you think that Disney world will reclose its gates due to the rising number of COVID cases in Florida and around the country?

havoc315

Well-Known Member
I continue to try to make 1 main post per day...

A 9-year-old in Florida died from Covid, the fifth minor to die in the state. All during an extended period where schools have been closed.

Yes, the mortality rate among children is extremely low. They are much lower risk than elderly populations. But the death of a 9-year-old is much more painful for society than the death of a 90-year-old.

If schools open without proper infection precautions... It's very easy to imagine those 5 deaths becoming 50 deaths or more.
Yes, that's a very very low percentage of all the children. But it's still a very high death rate for children.
Imagine, there was a highly credible threat that there would be an active shooter terrorizing an elementary school in Florida tomorrow, but we didn't know which school. Would we still just open all the schools without additional precautions? Would we just say, "well... the active shooter will probably only kill about 50 kids, that's a very small percentage, so who cares."

Florida is insistent that their schools re-open physically. As a parent, I strongly prefer schools re-open for in-person learning. But with caveats: Serious infection control measures must be enforced. Which further means that areas with wide uncontrolled community spread, simply cannot open for in-person learning. (a proper precaution would be a shut down of the classroom or school whenever a student tests positive for infection. If there is wide community spread, that would mean classrooms and schools getting shut down daily).

So how are things in Florida now? Is community spread under control?
Before looking at the data, I find it interesting: A month ago, as cases were quickly rising, the "truthers" were saying, "it's not a big deal, deaths are still low."
Now that deaths are blowing up, the "truthers" are saying, "oh.. the number of cares are starting to decline, so it's well controlled."

The ever shifting goal posts.

So where are things?

Capture.PNG


Most recent data as of last night. Cases have started to decline over the last few days, but testing has also declined by nearly the exact same margins. Thus, it's premature to conclude whether cases are truly starting to decline, or have simply plateaued. What you want to see is cases dropping while testing increases.

I previously explained why hospitalizations might be the best real-time measure of the state of the covid situation. Here we see the 7-day average continues to increase in Florida, though there has been a slight decline over the last 3-4 days.

Thus, it's still too early to tell. But it appears this wave in Florida may have peaked and may be starting to decline.

But that brings us to the bigger danger. Many people, experts and laypeople, excepted Covid might have seasonality like the flu -- On one extreme there was, "it will magically disappear in April," but even many experts were hoping the transmission might be noticeably reduced during the summer. The same factors that reduce flu transmission during the summer are also at play for Covid.
I remember as cases declined in May, there was chatter to the effect of, "we may be ok for a while, but we have to watch out for another wave in the fall."

Well.. it turns out we didn't get the summer off. But *if* this was the "low season" period for Covid, then how bad might things get in the fall?!?
And the danger for places like Florida and other areas with currently high numbers... even if the numbers start to decline now, there is the danger they will be starting the fall with already high amounts of community spread.

The whole point... "hot spots" that are trying to stay open, including Disney World, are really on very thin ice. The *best* case scenario is that they are at a high level plateau now... and then they have to hope and pray that September-November aren't seasonally more favorable to Covid spread.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
She reported the things the state dashboard didn't. The only sources are public, it is displayed here and not on the state dashboard. Go to the testing page
Her testing page looks incredibly messed up. That chart you posted shows much lower numbers for positives (and negatives) than the state dashboard reports. The only difference in display is the official dashboard only displays the past six weeks and she displays from the beginning.

She also seems to have decided to remove over half the negative test results from her data for some reason. The antibody report isn't on the state dashboard but it is published weekly in a pdf.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
I think 500 cases in a county with a population of 1.3 million would be considered doing well.

I live in a county of 1 million. We are now averaging 30-50 cases per day, with a positivity rate of under 1%.
Yet, we still have far more restrictions in place than Florida.

500 cases per day is not doing well in a county of 1.3 million. Because it's too many to contract trace. It's evidence of uncontrolled community transmission.
How many contact tracers are employed by Orange County? Do they have the resources to track down every contact of those 500 positive cases per day? And isolate the closest contacts of all of those 500 people per day, every day.

So while 500 per day is not an unmitigated disaster. It's not "doing well." At best, it's basically treading water as you hope and pray it doesn't get worse.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
I continue to try to make 1 main post per day...

A 9-year-old in Florida died from Covid, the fifth minor to die in the state. All during an extended period where schools have been closed.

Yes, the mortality rate among children is extremely low. They are much lower risk than elderly populations. But the death of a 9-year-old is much more painful for society than the death of a 90-year-old.

If schools open without proper infection precautions... It's very easy to imagine those 5 deaths becoming 50 deaths or more.
Yes, that's a very very low percentage of all the children. But it's still a very high death rate for children.
Imagine, there was a highly credible threat that there would be an active shooter terrorizing an elementary school in Florida tomorrow, but we didn't know which school. Would we still just open all the schools without additional precautions? Would we just say, "well... the active shooter will probably only kill about 50 kids, that's a very small percentage, so who cares."

Florida is insistent that their schools re-open physically. As a parent, I strongly prefer schools re-open for in-person learning. But with caveats: Serious infection control measures must be enforced. Which further means that areas with wide uncontrolled community spread, simply cannot open for in-person learning. (a proper precaution would be a shut down of the classroom or school whenever a student tests positive for infection. If there is wide community spread, that would mean classrooms and schools getting shut down daily).

So how are things in Florida now? Is community spread under control?
Before looking at the data, I find it interesting: A month ago, as cases were quickly rising, the "truthers" were saying, "it's not a big deal, deaths are still low."
Now that deaths are blowing up, the "truthers" are saying, "oh.. the number of cares are starting to decline, so it's well controlled."

The ever shifting goal posts.

So where are things?

View attachment 486023

Most recent data as of last night. Cases have started to decline over the last few days, but testing has also declined by nearly the exact same margins. Thus, it's premature to conclude whether cases are truly starting to decline, or have simply plateaued. What you want to see is cases dropping while testing increases.

I previously explained why hospitalizations might be the best real-time measure of the state of the covid situation. Here we see the 7-day average continues to increase in Florida, though there has been a slight decline over the last 3-4 days.

Thus, it's still too early to tell. But it appears this wave in Florida may have peaked and may be starting to decline.

But that brings us to the bigger danger. Many people, experts and laypeople, excepted Covid might have seasonality like the flu -- On one extreme there was, "it will magically disappear in April," but even many experts were hoping the transmission might be noticeably reduced during the summer. The same factors that reduce flu transmission during the summer are also at play for Covid.
I remember as cases declined in May, there was chatter to the effect of, "we may be ok for a while, but we have to watch out for another wave in the fall."

Well.. it turns out we didn't get the summer off. But *if* this was the "low season" period for Covid, then how bad might things get in the fall?!?
And the danger for places like Florida and other areas with currently high numbers... even if the numbers start to decline now, there is the danger they will be starting the fall with already high amounts of community spread.

The whole point... "hot spots" that are trying to stay open, including Disney World, are really on very thin ice. The *best* case scenario is that they are at a high level plateau now... and then they have to hope and pray that September-November aren't seasonally more favorable to Covid spread.

Yes, the death of a nine year old is very sad. However, a not insignificant number of minors die from the flu and other diseases every year. More than have died from COVID by a lot.

I don't know where the covid tracking project is getting the testing numbers but they don't match the State data at all. Two of the last 3 days were over 100k tests and the third was over 90k. That chart shows recent days at 60k and below.

As far as seasonality goes, the flu is seasonal in part due to people spending time indoors during the winter. It is also partly because enough people get the common strains for that year that aren't included in the flu shot so that those strains hit herd immunity as well.

For the indoor part of the equation, Florida would not expect to be worse in the winter because, if anything, people in Florida spend more time outdoors in the winter when the weather is pleasant.

I still predict that by the middle of August there will be a clear decline in daily cases in Florida and it will return to the steady state that existed prior to the recent spike by the end of August. I think it will happen because a high enough percentage of the population in the hot spots like Miami-Dade will have resistance that it will help to slow the spread significantly like what I believe happened in the northeast hot spots which is why they aren't getting a resurgence now. I don't think young adults in NYC are avoiding private parties any more than they were in Florida.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Also, I would argue the value of in person schooling is far more essential and could be done more safely then say opening restaurants and bars. It says a lot about our society that we prioritized the latter and have now created a situation where the former might not happen this year but we will absolutely not backtrack on reclining the latter.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
Did they also review all the deaths that occurred, that were not counted as COVID to verify that none of them had COVID listed as a contributing factor, that weren't included in the spreadsheet? Because erroneous info can work both ways.

But taking this at face value, of the 581 deaths they looked at, they found 8 erroneous listed. So 1.38% Most data collection comes with a "margin of error." I would think 1.38% would fall into that, and doesn't change the "nature of the beast."

False negatives, false positives. For any large scale system, there will always be mistakes. Innocent people will go to jail, under any system -- but you still send people to jail, just designing the best system you can.
No "testing" system will ever be perfect.

This article explains the process under which they assign Covid deaths in Florida:


So if anything, Florida is erring on the side of not assigning Covid as a cause of death. Surely, there will be cases where they erroneously still assign it as a cause of death. But there are likely to be just as many, if not more, where they don't assign it as a cause of death. (for example, an individual dies at home from respiratory arrest after contact with Covid individuals, but they had never taken a Covid test).
 

Auteur55

New Member
I continue to try to make 1 main post per day...

A 9-year-old in Florida died from Covid, the fifth minor to die in the state. All during an extended period where schools have been closed.

Yes, the mortality rate among children is extremely low. They are much lower risk than elderly populations. But the death of a 9-year-old is much more painful for society than the death of a 90-year-old.

If schools open without proper infection precautions... It's very easy to imagine those 5 deaths becoming 50 deaths or more.
Yes, that's a very very low percentage of all the children. But it's still a very high death rate for children.
Imagine, there was a highly credible threat that there would be an active shooter terrorizing an elementary school in Florida tomorrow, but we didn't know which school. Would we still just open all the schools without additional precautions? Would we just say, "well... the active shooter will probably only kill about 50 kids, that's a very small percentage, so who cares."

Florida is insistent that their schools re-open physically. As a parent, I strongly prefer schools re-open for in-person learning. But with caveats: Serious infection control measures must be enforced. Which further means that areas with wide uncontrolled community spread, simply cannot open for in-person learning. (a proper precaution would be a shut down of the classroom or school whenever a student tests positive for infection. If there is wide community spread, that would mean classrooms and schools getting shut down daily).

So how are things in Florida now? Is community spread under control?
Before looking at the data, I find it interesting: A month ago, as cases were quickly rising, the "truthers" were saying, "it's not a big deal, deaths are still low."
Now that deaths are blowing up, the "truthers" are saying, "oh.. the number of cares are starting to decline, so it's well controlled."

The ever shifting goal posts.

So where are things?

View attachment 486023

Most recent data as of last night. Cases have started to decline over the last few days, but testing has also declined by nearly the exact same margins. Thus, it's premature to conclude whether cases are truly starting to decline, or have simply plateaued. What you want to see is cases dropping while testing increases.

I previously explained why hospitalizations might be the best real-time measure of the state of the covid situation. Here we see the 7-day average continues to increase in Florida, though there has been a slight decline over the last 3-4 days.

Thus, it's still too early to tell. But it appears this wave in Florida may have peaked and may be starting to decline.

But that brings us to the bigger danger. Many people, experts and laypeople, excepted Covid might have seasonality like the flu -- On one extreme there was, "it will magically disappear in April," but even many experts were hoping the transmission might be noticeably reduced during the summer. The same factors that reduce flu transmission during the summer are also at play for Covid.
I remember as cases declined in May, there was chatter to the effect of, "we may be ok for a while, but we have to watch out for another wave in the fall."

Well.. it turns out we didn't get the summer off. But *if* this was the "low season" period for Covid, then how bad might things get in the fall?!?
And the danger for places like Florida and other areas with currently high numbers... even if the numbers start to decline now, there is the danger they will be starting the fall with already high amounts of community spread.

The whole point... "hot spots" that are trying to stay open, including Disney World, are really on very thin ice. The *best* case scenario is that they are at a high level plateau now... and then they have to hope and pray that September-November aren't seasonally more favorable to Covid spread.
I had two kids killed by a truck walking to school by my house. There was also reports a few years ago that we were having a terrible flu season and kids were at risk. I remember some news stories of a child dying from it. When my kid had flu symptoms I remember rushing her in to the doctor. How many kids died from the flu that year was it 50? My point being society didn’t shut down and we didn’t stop everything in our lives to try and combat it to save one life. These things were happening in our society for years we’ve always accepted death as part of operating. Kids are killed in car wrecks every year yet you never bemoaned 5 deaths and said we need to shut down driving or only allow so many cars on the road. The absolutely obsession to stop one risk amongst thousands of risks at the detriment of everything is mind boggling to me.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
Her testing page looks incredibly messed up. That chart you posted shows much lower numbers for positives (and negatives) than the state dashboard reports. The only difference in display is the official dashboard only displays the past six weeks and she displays from the beginning.

She also seems to have decided to remove over half the negative test results from her data for some reason. The antibody report isn't on the state dashboard but it is published weekly in a pdf.
Ignore the charts and focus on the words. That is what this is about.
 

Jedijax719

Well-Known Member
500 cases in a county of 1.3 million? Wow! I mean it should be a concern but that seems VERY low compared to what we have here in the Houston area. In Harris county, we have about 65,000 cases with a population of 3 million. In the entire Houston metro area, it's 100,000 (ish) for 4 million (ish). That's 2% infection rate. We have a LOT of people saying "it's only 2% of the population getting this virus and many are mild. No big deal".
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, if I were living in another state I would probably not travel to any area of Florida right now. But as a FL resident, I would definitely not travel downstate at this time!

I understand your point but if you dive into the numbers the risk isn't as high as you might think. If we take Broward and assume an average of 1,500 new cases per day. At some point (I'm going to use 21 days) the number of people that are no longer contagious starts to equal the number of new cases per day (if the new cases stay roughly the same). After 21 days, about 1.62% of the population will be actively contagious.

The chance of being in prolonged, close contact with one of them who is asymptomatic is pretty low if you are coming from out of the area.

I'm pretty sure that you've mentioned being in the higher risk age bracket. In that case, I wouldn't travel anywhere that wasn't essential like my parents have been doing. However, if I lived in another part of the state (I live in Broward), at my age and risk level I would be fine traveling to Broward.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Ignore the charts and focus on the words. That is what this is about.
I don't know how to interpret words that are associated with chart where the data seems incredibly messed up. I can make a dashboard also and write whatever disclaimers I want to about the data. I still haven't found her source report where I can compare what the DOH says about the data.

She doesn't have any inside knowledge about how the source data is generated. She had a problem with how the data was presented.
 

Miss Bella

Well-Known Member
500 cases in a county of 1.3 million? Wow! I mean it should be a concern but that seems VERY low compared to what we have here in the Houston area. In Harris county, we have about 65,000 cases with a population of 3 million. In the entire Houston metro area, it's 100,000 (ish) for 4 million (ish). That's 2% infection rate. We have a LOT of people saying "it's only 2% of the population getting this virus and many are mild. No big deal".
Are things improving in Texas? We're slowly but steadily improving here in AZ.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
I don't know how to interpret words that are associated with chart where the data seems incredibly messed up. I can make a dashboard also and write whatever disclaimers I want to about the data. I still haven't found her source report where I can compare what the DOH says about the data.

She doesn't have any inside knowledge about how the source data is generated. She had a problem with how the data was presented.
Baby or bathwater. You won't consider what you don't like because there may be a 1% (or whatever) error but the method of collection stated in plain english is thrown out as well?
Goodbye, I'm done.
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
500 cases in a county of 1.3 million? Wow! I mean it should be a concern but that seems VERY low compared to what we have here in the Houston area. In Harris county, we have about 65,000 cases with a population of 3 million. In the entire Houston metro area, it's 100,000 (ish) for 4 million (ish). That's 2% infection rate. We have a LOT of people saying "it's only 2% of the population getting this virus and many are mild. No big deal".

500ish a day. 25k total so far.
 

Jedijax719

Well-Known Member
500ish a day. 25k total so far.
Oh dang! Sorry I must have misread. Yeah that's a HUGE problem. That's not good at all.

Btw, are schools in the Dade county area of Florida going to start like usual? Are they going with any sort of choice or hybrid model?

@LUVMCO depends on what you mean by "improve". The number of new cases per day are staying consistent so there is more of a linear increase in number of cases. It's still around 10k new cases per day and the Houston area is seeing between 1500-2000 new cases per day. The fatality rate is still under 2% so I guess that is a positive. However, the positive testing rate is right around 15% and is closer to 20-25% in the Houston area (it was 28% recently at one point I think). The daily fatalities are rising though and we've hit over 200 deaths twice in the past week.

I teach in the 3rd largest district in Texas and our numbers are steadily rising and has become the Houston hotspot.(maybe Texas hotspot other than the McAllen area). Schools are on a free-for-all in terms of opening. Nobody is going full face-to-face. But some districts are starting in middle August with online only and some are starting in middle August with a choice option (they can go face-to-face or do online). I think the local spread is 35% wanting online but I don't know how many will actually do that. They really need to shut down the Houston area for about 2 weeks but that isn't going to happen. A couple of districts are going full online until October (such as Houston ISD). Families without the option to have someone home with kids are completely screwed. Our district has postponed the start of schools at all until after Labor Day and then going with the choice option. At the VERY least, our governor needs to order the closure of all school until after Labor Day.
 
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havoc315

Well-Known Member
Yes, the death of a nine year old is very sad. However, a not insignificant number of minors die from the flu and other diseases every year. More than have died from COVID by a lot.

But that's with schools closed during Covid. Flu deaths are also minimal when schools are closed. Schools open, Covid deaths are likely to be much greater. Looking at the fatality rate data we have collected so far, Covid still has a higher fatality rate in minors than the flu. Significantly.

I don't know where the covid tracking project is getting the testing numbers but they don't match the State data at all. Two of the last 3 days were over 100k tests and the third was over 90k. That chart shows recent days at 60k and below.

False... They link to the state data. Are you confusing PCR testing (current infection) and anti-body testing (infection sometime in the past)?

As far as seasonality goes, the flu is seasonal in part due to people spending time indoors during the winter. It is also partly because enough people get the common strains for that year that aren't included in the flu shot so that those strains hit herd immunity as well.

For the indoor part of the equation, Florida would not expect to be worse in the winter because, if anything, people in Florida spend more time outdoors in the winter when the weather is pleasant.

Your herd immunity statement is simply false. There are multiple reasons flu spreads significantly more in the fall. Yes, "indoor" in a big factor.
And just like the rest of the country -- A huge portion of the Florida population spends more time indoors during the fall and winter: The entire student population.

If your statement was correct, then flu wouldn't be worse in Florida during the fall/winter

Yet, much like the rest of the country --- Flu peaks in fall/winter in Florida:


Thus, IF the Coronavirus behaves like the flu (currently an unknown), then it would be expected to get much worse in Florida and the rest of the country in the fall and winter. Florida is not immune by having warmer winters.


I don't think young adults in NYC are avoiding private parties any more than they were in Florida.

While younger people in NYC are less cautious than they should be, as everywhere. I can guarantee you, young adults in NYC absolutely are being more careful than many other places. Indoor dining is still forbidden in NYC. Gyms, movie theaters and malls, all remain closed in NYC.

So unless you think "private parties" are the only places where disease spreads.... NYC has far less opportunity for community spread than most areas of Florida. Young adults in NYC are no eating indoors in restaurants, they are not going to gyms or movie theaters, they aren't shopping inside a mall.
 

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