Two coasts: One very different world

[Buried20KLeague]

Actually they have it almost right, they measured the circumfernece of the pit without taking into the account the ceramic tiles that were added. If you look at the back leg of all the Dumbo's they are scrapping against the tiles and cutting into the fiberglass. In addition there was no filtration system added into the water feature pit and all of the debris has now caused clogging and the water has had to be shut off. It would be comical if it wasnt just so sad. Lord knows what the price tag was on this project to begin with.

Bwa HA HA HA HA!!! Seriously, that's just funny. For real.

 

[HenryMystic]

People are defending a poorly built spinner. I've seen it all now.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Because nothing infers rubbing = necessarily dangerous. You're basing your position on information that has proven completely unreliable. All you really know is there is at least one dumbo, with scrapes on the side of his leg. And that e-stops aren't liked. That's what you really know.

You don't know if it was a one time thing, a recurring thing, something that happened with force, or something that happens only fractions of a millimeter at once.

You're jumping off the cliff based on zero hard facts.

Again, you aren't grasping the potential hazard in E-STOPPING the ride that this poses to the guests... But hey, you are a TDO apologist, I get it... They do no wrong in your eyes... Defending this is the newest of lows...

 

[Captain Chaos]

Actually they have it almost right, they measured the circumfernece of the pit without taking into the account the ceramic tiles that were added. If you look at the back leg of all the Dumbo's they are scrapping against the tiles and cutting into the fiberglass. In addition there was no filtration system added into the water feature pit and all of the debris has now caused clogging and the water has had to be shut off. It would be comical if it wasnt just so sad. Lord knows what the price tag was on this project to begin with.

Sad... just, sad...

 

[Captain Chaos]

People are defending a poorly built spinner. I've seen it all now.

A poorly built spinner that could pose a hazard to guests.... Yes, this is being defended...

 

[asianway]

You're missing the point (not surprisingly).

The ride, while in motion and apparently scraping the edge of the pit, is not the direct cause of concern.

The concern arises when the ride is e-stopped, either because of an automatic sensor sensing too much restrictive pressue put on the motors, or because a cast member hears something they don't like (the scraping) and hits it, or maybe both.

E-stops are designed to VERY QUICKLY shut down the entire system. They're designed that way because you have to plan for the worst possible cases, which would require immediate ending of all motion. When you E-stop, you don't coast to a stop. In an attaction like this, you STOP.

What happens when little Timmy is flying high above Circusland without a care in the world, and an automatic sensor literally SLAMS the brakes on??? Little timmy could fly forward and hit the cab. Or the joystick.

Let me make this clear: The issue isn't the paint being scraped off. It's the cascade of possible effects that restriction could cause.

And FYI... I have a history in Ride Operations Supervision. So I know what I'm talking about. That's not the line of work I'm in anymore, but that's what I did. And e-stops and their consequences were a daily issue I had to deal with.

Most of us are blessed to have jobs where the worst consequence of error is not someone getting killed. Attraction ops, for the little they are paid, have an enormous responsibility to the safety of the guests. used to be in that role and treats it with the seriousness it demands. Some of the comments I am reading here are diminishing what could be a dangerous situation. What if the post was about lackadaisical monorail switching procedures and it was written on 7/1/08?

 

[flynnibus]

Normally I don't have an issue with your posts, and don't mind your opposing viewpoint. But to infer that a ride vehicle coming in contact with the stationary objects surrounding it MIGHT be okay is almost completly insane.

It doesn't matter if it happened once. If it happened once, it could happen again. And in this day and age, those are possibilities that any amusement company doesn't operate under.

How do you know it wasn't already fixed and simply the ride vehicle hasn't been swapped out yet for repair?That's the point - we don't know the scenario - only tidbits of info that are completely unreliable.

Every time it happens (for whatever reason), it creates stresses and forces on areas of the ride that certainly weren't designed for it. I'm sure you can see how that can easily become a problem.

Sure - but lets keep perspective over what we are talking about here. You went through great lengths to discuss the severity of what an e-stop does to the ride and it's riders. The inertia of the spinning vehicle on an extended length arm is going to be orders of magnitude more force than a simple scrape. The ride is designed to be able to handle such stops - so no, I don't have some crazy fear that rubbing paint is going to make dumbo fall in the next week.

I'm going to side with the professionals here rather than an anonymous blogger with conflicted information and not jump to chastise the company with no facts to back it up.

 

[flynnibus]

Again, you aren't grasping the potential hazard in E-STOPPING the ride that this poses to the guests...

The ride is DESIGNED to be able to e-stop. Are you suggesting that the very risk of an e-stop is what makes the ride dangerous? Well @%$ than, I guess we should get off all the rides! They all might estop at any time!

But hey, you are a TDO apologist, I get it...

Anything but... I just wait for something to stand on before I try to preach to the world.

 

[TP2000]

[Dumbo] One of the big landmarks you saw just after entering the land. And it had views of nearly all of Fantasyland and the castle.

The new location took away a lot of this. I haven't seen and experienced it in person yet, but to me it seems that it might have more capacity, but also less draw now.

What a very interesting point!

I hadn't thought of it like that, but I think you may be on to something there. A double-spinner shunted off to the side of the land and now surrounded by trees and tents... will that still have the same iconic status? Will the newly placed version still draw the same demand?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of years, especially once NextGen finally takes off formally and these interactive whack-a-mole queues are everywhere and no longer exclusive to just a small handful of rides.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

How do you know it wasn't already fixed and simply the ride vehicle hasn't been swapped out yet for repair?That's the point - we don't know the scenario - only tidbits of info that are completely unreliable.



Sure - but lets keep perspective over what we are talking about here. You went through great lengths to discuss the severity of what an e-stop does to the ride and it's riders. The inertia of the spinning vehicle on an extended length arm is going to be orders of magnitude more force than a simple scrape. The ride is designed to be able to handle such stops - so no, I don't have some crazy fear that rubbing paint is going to make dumbo fall in the next week.

I'm going to side with the professionals here rather than an anonymous blogger with conflicted information and not jump to chastise the company with no facts to back it up.

Well, in my posts to you I made sure to say something to the effect of "if this has really happened" and "I haven't seen it personally". If it's been fixed, or been blown out of proportion, then the point is moot.

My posts are written under the assumption that the post, along with what Tarzan said, is likely. A fairly clear indicator to me would be if the water effects are turned off under Dumbo today. Anyone at the parks reading this that might be able to chime in??

I WILL say that if this is currently going on, I'd be shocked... Ride Engineering (or whatever their department is called, I'm not sure) would literally be putting their necks in a proverbial guillotine by checking this off each morning. If I were a supervisor for the area, there's no WAY I'd allow my CM's to operate the ride like this. Way too much liability, no matter the level of danger.

 

[flynnibus]

In addition there was no filtration system added into the water feature pit and all of the debris has now caused clogging and the water has had to be shut off

I figured that was the tie in to the water effect being turned off (not the pit being too shallow... ) - but I imagine there has to be something more to the story as to why they would be scraping intermittently or more now than in testing.

It's not fat causing the arm to dip more..Having more weight and having the arm dip further.. would not increase the radius length nor reduce the clearance to the vertical surface. Something has to be altering the effective length of the arm or the vehicle itself must be shifting.

 

[marni1971]

Bwa HA HA HA HA!!! Seriously, that's just funny. For real.

Actually they have it almost right, they measured the circumfernece of the pit without taking into the account the ceramic tiles that were added. If you look at the back leg of all the Dumbo's they are scrapping against the tiles and cutting into the fiberglass. In addition there was no filtration system added into the water feature pit and all of the debris has now caused clogging and the water has had to be shut off.

Quoted again to see if it's really that bad...
..yes. It is.

 

[flynnibus]

Well, in my posts to you I made sure to say something to the effect of "if this has really happened" and "I haven't seen it personally". If it's been fixed, or been blown out of proportion, then the point is moot.

Yet hasn't stopped people from jumping to conclusions... and inferring they are putting everyone's in danger. That was my point - we just don't know, so instead of being chicken little or debbie downer.. let the real information come out first before grabbing the pitchforks.

A fairly clear indicator to me would be if the water effects are turned off under Dumbo today. Anyone at the parks reading this that might be able to chime in??

That too would be inconclusive. The ride itself could be 'fixed' and the plumbing effect not fixed yet due to other repairs being needed. My fear is this gives a great opportunity for them just to get it running, and leave the effect OFF for good because they didn't want to take the brand new attraction back down to make what possibly would be an extended repair. Not saying it's happening, but would be all too typical of them.

I WILL say that if this is currently going on, I'd be shocked... Ride Engineering (or whatever their department is called, I'm not sure) would literally be putting their necks in a proverbial guillotine by checking this off each morning. If I were a supervisor for the area, there's no WAY I'd allow my CM's to operate the ride like this. Way too much liability, no matter the level of danger.

It's all too obvious to be simply overlooked or swept under the rug. That's why I don't buy the Russian Roulette argument.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

The ride is DESIGNED to be able to e-stop. Are you suggesting that the very risk of an e-stop is what makes the ride dangerous? Well @%$ than, I guess we should get off all the rides! They all might estop at any time!

The e-stops are designed, for sure... But they're not designed for the comfort of the unaware rider. They're designed for if an elephant falls off. If someone runs into the ride area. If a kid falls in the trough. In those cases, the negative effects on riders of an e-stop is markedly less than that of the person in real jeopardy.

That's why they stress to CM's not to do it unless it's an actual emergency. Which then brings it around to putting a CM in a bad spot to tell them it's okay to operate like this. (If this is how it's operating, of course).

Not only that, but where I Suped, if an e-stop was hit, a report had to be done, and then the ride could only be re-opened after Engineering went through the ride and area Supes (me) gave an all clear, and then the ride had to be tested just like before opening that day... Meaning CM's were scared to death to do it if they weren't positive. No one wanted to have all that downtime and all those important people pulled in blamed on them.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

That too would be inconclusive. The ride itself could be 'fixed' and the plumbing effect not fixed yet due to other repairs being needed. My fear is this gives a great opportunity for them just to get it running, and leave the effect OFF for good because they didn't want to take the brand new attraction back down to make what possibly would be an extended repair. Not saying it's happening, but would be all too typical of them.

A fair point.

 

[flynnibus]

The e-stops are designed, for sure... But they're not designed for the comfort of the unaware rider. They're designed for if an elephant falls off. If someone runs into the ride area. If a kid falls in the trough. In those cases, the negative effects on riders of an e-stop is markedly less than that of the person in real jeopardy.

But if the argument is 'it might cause an estop! they can't run it!' - then they can't run any of their attractions. Because every one of them is designed to e-stop if a error condition is detected.. and they happen all the time. Be it a cascade, a stupid human trick, debris, guests dropping something, etc. The fact the ride MAY e-stop is no different than every other day of operation.

Do they want false positives? Of course not. But the systems are designed to be paranoid and the park and CMs deal with estops that are of the non-life threatening types all the time. Guests drop objects... guests try to get out of their vehicle.. etc.

 

[danlb_2000]

Unless, of course, this is completely untrue (which is possible, I don't know, I haven't seen it). But that certain doesn't seem like a scrape that would have occurred during unloading or assembling of the pachyderm... It looks consistant with the motion the cart would have been traveling in relation to the trough.

There are pictures here of the same damage on two different ride vehicles:

http://orlandoparksnews.blogspot.com/2012/06/fantasyland-update-new-tower-appears.html#more

 

[Tom]

OMG....seriously? This thread is comical.

I tried to keep my mouth shut, but I can't help it. I'll "apologize" in advance to those who are offended...but anyone who is jumping to the conclusion that this was a design error, or that it's because they spent less money on the ride, is an absolute fool.

Plain and simple - the inside clearance diameter of the pit is not what it should be. That's it. Maybe they drew it an inch too small. Maybe the carpenter laying out the forms cut 1" on his tape measure (common practice) when they were pulling the radius and he didn't tell the guy on the other end of the tape. Maybe they didn't account for the thickness of the tile and grout. Maybe there's a portion of the pit wall that was poured out of plumb and it kicks in ever so slightly at the top. Maybe when they cast the new Dumbos in Central Shops, their mounting bracket template was off a 1/2". Maybe the spinner arms were fabricated a tiny bit too long.

I've been on projects where something similar to nearly every one of these possibilities has happened. There's one chance it's the designer's fault. But there's a hundred chances it's a contractor's fault. And that doesn't come from being "cheap"....it's just a friggin ERROR! It happens on every single construction project in the world.

Sigh.

 

[Clever Name]

I guess they'll have to put this on the punch list.

 

[JustChillinBro]

lol. mousemerf is insane. You all know this. He just took a picture (probably without permission) from Sam/OrlandoParksNews and jumped to 18,000 conclusions about children flying off Dumbo into the Casey Jr. Water and Pee Zone because the elephants (might be) scraping the edges of the concrete. He hasn't even seen it himself.