The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I meant within the context of WS. If the Frozen makeover wasn't happening, some new ride would not suddenly get built in another country.
And when some new ride on the next big hit is being considered they'll be able to point to this new ride as proof that redoing an existing small ride is a better financial move than building a new, large one. It is also preventing a bigger investment reflective of the highest grossing animated film. Adding to World Showcase is not an overly big concern to those bothered by the new ride.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
And when some new ride on the next big hit is being considered they'll be able to point to this new ride as proof that redoing an existing small ride is a better financial move than building a new, large one.

Isn't that what I said?

If people really want to get upset, complain about the fact that overlays are seen as a good enough substitute for new experiences

EDIT: you were editing your post when I was typing up mine. Yes, Frozen could (should) be getting a bigger, better ride elsewhere if this weren't happening. Although it would not be unusual for Disney to give the same movie different rides in different parks (like Buzz Lightyear and TSMM)
 

culturenthrills

Well-Known Member
I know you were joking, and while I don't disagree in principle (boy howdy!)...it made me think of something I saw a few weeks ago...(apologies if this was mentioned earlier, but this thread is L-O-N-G)

Has anybody out there seen BRONIES: The Extremely Unexpected Adult Fans of My Little Pony?

It's narrated by John de Lancie (Q, if you're a big nerd like me) and while I expected it to be cringe-worthy and as such, funny - it was actually rather heart-breaking.

What is WRONG with us in the West (the documentary follows Bronies in Israel, Germany, England and America)? Why are our men so desperately lonely, so hungry for love and approval that they feel they can only get it from a wee girls' cartoon? There were some armed forces guys in the film, it was just :cry:.

Hug your husband, hug your son, hug your brother - TELL him you love him and that you can't imagine your life without him.

Do it now.

Don't make the men in our lives turn to...ponies. ;)

I nominate this for post of the year. Momma's don't let your babies grow up to be bronies
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
Spirited Weekend Musings:

Well, nothing like waiting on a real life autopsy to do one on the recent fan community hysterics. But I would be remiss if I didn't thank all if you for the kind words and notes during a very crappy period. We got some crazies here to be sure, but at least they are nice crazies. And classy ones.

First, since I awoke to it in print this morning, let's talk about Soup & Salad Sandra's story on Frozen at EPCOT. I am sure she thinks it was fair and balanced. I am sure Celebration Place still feels like they were viciously and unfairly attacked by the evil Sentinel. And I am sure that every Lifestyler quoted in it will attempt (laughably) to use their presence in it to push their significance to Disney.

The story, which ran with the headline ''Epcot moves from culture to cartoons" (the most hard-hitting theme) here in SoFl., was largely written from the conclusion that Disney was just giving people what they wanted and that was a good thing. That's not how a truly fair and balanced piece should be structured, even if it is common in journalism today.

The story fell into the same potholes that the fan community has since word started leaking of this earlier in the year.

Look, you can think this is the greatest thing in the world, the worst thing, something in between or not gives **** at all. But you don't get to go change the rules for what should be on the menu in a given park just because it is easy, lazy and convenient to do so. You know, like Disney doing the easy, lazy and convenient thing by sticking in Frozen and then trying to contrive any backstory or press release that explains it away.

Frozen is going into Norway not because the film was (fill this part of my post in with some blather talking about the landscapes, culture and natural beauty of Norway serving as inspiration and whatever you come up with will likely make as much sense as what Disney has) ... Nope, Frozen is going into Norway because why spend hundreds of millions of dollars on creating something new at either MK or whatever they call the Studios park in a few years, both places where it would fit, when you can spend well under $100 million on replacing an attraction at a park that is desperate for something new that isn't the $6 ' sample' of the year at Food and Wine 2014?

At the risk of sounding like my little pal the Epcot Explorer, the thematic integrity disintegrates into chaos when you try and rewrite the mission statement of a park little by little. I was at EPCOT Center when it opened and have been there annually many times annually since. When it opened there was no presence of Disney characters at all. None. Except for on some merchandise at the Centorium. The only characters were Figment and Dreamfinder. And it was like that for years. Indeed, when Disney foamheads came to EPCOT, they weren't everywhere and they didn't overpower. They had a character bus. They'd dress in funky spacey outfits in FW. Maybe they'd be part of a show at America Gardens. But they complimented what existed. They didn't clash (you know, like the Marvel BRAND does with Disney no matter how hard it makes Bob Iger).

You can talk until you no longer have a voice or type until you break the crappy keypad on your new iPhone6 and you still won't be able to come up with a rational reason for why bringing toons to the World Showcase in such a blatant money-grubbing fashion is somehow good and the right choice. Sure, you can like it. You can defend it based on your opinion. But you can't defend it based upon the ethos (God, I am sounding like a cross between EE and Fidel's Little Bro Andy) that created the place. You can,t because it fundamentally goes against everything WS was about. And whether you liked Maelstrom, hated it or were ambivalent about it also isn't the point.

Something either fits or it doesn't-

One of WDW's biggest problems, and it has plenty as it becomes middle aged, is an identity crisis. We touch upon it here in so many threads from recreating DD yet again and what should or shouldn't be there to the proliferation of DVC to upcharge events ... It's sorta like the 19-year-old fresh faced farm boy from Kansas that comes to WDW to come out and see who he really is. Except WDW really doesn't know what it is or what it is supposed to be in the 21st century. There is no cohesion. No vision. Nothing but crappy branded merchandise that links the giant resort. ....So, instead of committing to visions, to identities for WDW as a whole and the individual parks on their own, Disney has done the cheap, easy, lazy and convenient ... If it has something to do with a Disney BRAND, franchise or IP, then it belongs anywhere and everywhere.

Hey, let's be honest, the vast majority of WDW fans today were certainly not fans in the 70s, most not in the 80s either, and a large part were just getting their feet wet with Disney in the 90s (even if they have books, blogs or podcasts today). They believe that if Disney puts something in a park, then that is enough to say it belongs. Forget about John Hench, Herb Ryman, Marc Davis. Marty Sklar still shows up at D23 events, so he must agree with what the WDC is doing, right?

Of course, Guardians of the Galaxy belongs anywhere ... And Sofia the First ... And Yoda's Tatooine Review Dinner Show and ... Toon Princesses belting out Let it Go in what was supposed to be a pavilion about the culture, history and people of Norway. I am sure that 19-year-old farm boy will be singing his way through it and that's what's important, right?

Disney got where it did by giving people what they asked for, right?

You do realize how wrong that statement is, don't you? You do realize that none of the most amazing things Disney has created would have ever happened by ''giving people what they asked for''?

Disney, in Orlando, is becoming like Subway. Bland and boring, but safe, and the exact same everywhere.

Going back to Sandra's story, one can only wonder why she never bothered to look at old copies of her newspaper (I have them) from 1982 and read about what World Showcase was about and write a story about why Disney has decided to move away and bastardize that vision. She might have asked why Disney is pitching $500 million Frozen projects in Asia that are fully thought out while shoehorning a cheap (yes, $75 million is cheap) overlay into a place it doesn't belong. She might want to walk back her statement that kids learn about transportation in 20 minutes on their toys, so they need Tron Track so they don,t need ADD meds. But ultimately, it wouldn't' matter. Until there is a major housecleaning at the company, this is simply what will continue to happen.

From Bob, Tom and Jay down to Glendale over to TDO ... Time to bring in the industrial strength enemas.

BTW, I heard that @ScarlettAshley1 dropped in. I would hoped you treated her well and that she'll be around from time to time. I'd like to hear her perspective ..
74, this is another reason why I so appreciate your posts here. You get it. You know the Disney Company of the past, its vision, and its excellent execution of it. So do I. We saw first hand how great things can be when vision and giving the guest more than they expect brought record profits. Not when the focus was profits alone.

I'm sorry for your loss. I really am. It sucks getting older and watching folks you love die. Please do know you are always welcome here.
 

TeriofTerror

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney's goal was to create entertainment for all ages:

"The idea for Disneyland came about when my daughters were very young and Saturday was always Daddy's day with the two daughters. ... I felt there should be something built where the parents and the children could have fun together."

"Adults are interested if you don't play down to little two- or three-year-olds or talk down. I don't believe in talking down to children."

"You can't live on things made for children or for critics. I never made films for either of them. Disneyland is not just for children. I don't play down."

"In the wintertime you can go [to Disneyland] during the week and you won't see any children. You'll see the oldsters out there riding all those rides and having fun and everything. Summertime, of course, the average would drop down. But the overall, year-round average, it's four adults to one child."

"Part of the Disney success is our ability to create a believable world of dreams that appeals to all age groups. The kind of entertainment we create is meant to appeal to every member of the family."

"You're dead if you only aim for kids."​

I wish those running corporate Disney would contemplate Walt Disney's sage advice when running Disney's theme parks.
And if TWDC wants to quit being held to Walt's standards, they need to quit invoking his memory for marketing purposes. You can't have one without the other.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
They already took his name off the tag on Disney films... wonder when they'll take his name off the resort.
How about taking his name off "The Walt Disney Company"? :D

It amazes me how much today's corporate Disney wraps itself in the 'Walt Disney' name like a protective shield and yet repeatedly violates his ethos while running the company bearing his name.
 
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TeriofTerror

Well-Known Member
Is there some type of compensation the family get's for the use of using the name Walt with the name Disney? Or is the corporation just phasing out the name Walt?
My understanding (and I could be entirely wrong) is that movies made during Walt's life or in which he had a hand are "Walt Disney's". Those after his passing (post "Jungle Book"?) are just "Disney's". Feel free to correct me if I'm off base on this. :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I don't really care about mission statements when it comes to Epcot. As with any organization, they're meaingless if actions go against those statements. EPCOT's vision has changed so many times since Walt's death that I doubt any one, clear, true vision exists. Card Walker's plaque that has been quoted as gospel here, was really just a PR move done to make everyone forget about that movie from October 1966 that showed very clearly what EPCOT meant to the leader of the company.

Citing what Walt's plans were vs what the company decided to build is just an effort to convolute things and really is insignificant. People aren't crying EPCOT isn't a working community with renters... they are upset that Disney is going in direct contradiction to what Disney actually built EPCOT as. Not what the rev1, 2, 6, or 18 plans were.. what actually came to be.

Disney's real (meaning, in practice) mission with WS since opening has been to sell food and merch

Because THAT WAS THE EXPERIENCE. It wasn't 'Mickey's Table' Dining - it was an english pub. It wasn't 'Mickey's Trinket shop' - it was buy unique merchandise you didn't find elsewhere. EPCOT was not a lecture hall presentation on culture - it was a presentation delivered through setting, immersion, retail, dining, culture representatives, and education.

What was presented in its uniqueness, what it celebrated, and where it was supposed to transport you to was the ENTERTAINMENT and EXPERIENCE.

Shocker to some people.. but shopping *IS* entertainment for a lot of people.. as is eating at new and different places.

To boil it down as 'just sell stuff' - is to say "Space Mountain only exists to make ticket sales" - Yes, if you dumb things down to the ultimate end game of the company (to make revenue and profits) but it doesn't tell you anything why you have Space Mountain instead of Taco Stand. Nor does it tell you why Space Mountain was a good pick vs another idea. If your only focus is on that endpoint... there is no point in worrying about how to assemble products.. you just assume they will all make money. But reality is, you can't focus only on that because it's the WHAT and HOW that helps dictate if you can be successful making money.

No other theme park land in the company's history has been so skewed towards those activities

Pleasure Island...
SF Wharf Area @ DCA...

World Showcase was not Downtown Disney - there is an example of a space whose's sole purpose was retail and dining. World Showcase was not a decorated food court.

All of Disney World exists to generate revenue and profits - that doesn't make the the ideas behind themed entertainment irrelevant or non-existent in the success or not of Disney.

Yet again.. people forget the role of HOW and WHY in the choices behind the success of Disney product. A mistake so common and why so many people tried to copy Disney's success and failed. Copycats vs artists creating in the same principles.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
My understanding (and I could be entirely wrong) is that movies made during Walt's life or in which he had a hand are "Walt Disney's". Those after his passing (post "Jungle Book"?) are just "Disney's". Feel free to correct me if I'm off base on this. :)

Nope - it's purely a branding decision. About 3 years ago (there will be a thread somewhere here) - Disney changed their studio tag at the front of films from saying 'Walt Disney' to just 'Disney'
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Is there some type of compensation the family get's for the use of using the name Walt with the name Disney? Or is the corporation just phasing out the name Walt?
I believe Retlaw sold the name rights to Walt Disney Productions in the early 1980s when they also sold their Disneyland attractions and Walt's apartment. It's an episode in Disney history I've always wanted to know more about. It was always a sore point between the two brothers and their families, and the sale occurred while Ron Miller was trying to get things under control.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
I believe Retlaw sold the name rights to Walt Disney Productions in the early 1980s when they also sold their Disneyland attractions and Walt's apartment. It's an episode in Disney history I've always wanted to know more about. It was also a sore point between the two brothers and their families, and the sale occurred while Ron Miller was trying to get things under control.
Also worth pointing out that the Walt Disney Family Museum was formed from Retlaw, which sold its TV stations in the 90's.
 

ThemeParkJunkee

Well-Known Member
I just got back to the internet after my weekly hiatus to the North Woods. I do not have television or internet while there. It is very peaceful. I have lots of projects and lots of books and lots of movies on DVD. Anyway, it is nice to see a post by Mr. Spirit again. It is amazing how life's events can put so many things into perspective. I loved WDW1974's post on page 859. Eloquently said my good man. (I won't quote it, look it up)

I do not apologize for my love of theme parks. Some adults may look askance when I express my excitement for my upcoming trip to Orlando. I largely do not discuss it, except on forums. I love to travel and do so as much as I can. Theme parks are an every four year thing for me. I don't purchase "Disney Parks" merchandise, I don't trade pins. I don't collect vinylmation. I have purchased exactly three things in the last 20 years at WDW: A sweatshirt because I was "frozen", a Minnie Mouse watch, and a Viking helmet with braids in Norway.

I am not getting any younger. My 40 year HS reunion will be next summer. I am helping with the committee. The number of classmates I have outlived has astounded me. If I can afford it, I will visit theme parks. If I have a passion, I shall indulge it. It is "Bucket List" time my friends and the list grows ever longer.

If I am dismayed at the loss of the "ethos" (to use a WDW1974 term) of World Showcase, I will express it. Kind of nice to get old and crotchety. ;)
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Pleasure Island...

Pleasure Island was a theme park?

I get the impression you didn't even bother to read my post in full before shouting (what posting in CAPS is, which by the way is obnoxious). I never complained about using dining or shopping as part of the experience. I complained about the focus being skewed too much in that direction (at the expense of everything else), and the general staleness of WS's attraction mix and how ultimately, the Frozen makeover of Maelstrom does not really change that.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
SO Ive got some thoughts on TDO..... because TDO doesn't exist anymore, not in the terms of the old days anyways.

Think of Parks and Resorts to be more like the mafia's organization. All the big decisions are made at the top.

You've got Staggs sitting there as the Don. Whether he consolidated this power or if it was Rasulo, it doesnt matter. All decisions of expansion, makeovers, etc., all go through Staggs.

Why is he ignoring Orlando & Anaheim lately? Shanghai. Its all about Shanghai. Why? There's several billion people living in China and neighboring India. Thats a lot of people and a large untapped market.

Crofton, she plays the consigliere. She's the go between for Staggs on down. Picture Tom Hagen dining with Jack Woltz.....

Then you have the two capos, Kalogridis and Colglazier. They just do as they're told. They are there to make sure the numbers are met. They have no control over DL or WDW at all. They essentially just sail the ships and keep things running. And if they don't? They'll get clipped, so to speak. Someone else will take their place.

So why am I bringing all this up? To make sure you know who's really in charge anymore. Its all Glendale and its all Staggs.

This didnt used to be this way.....
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Pleasure Island was a theme park?

As much as River Country was. Just because the entertainment isn't delivered in ride vehicles doesn't change the principles.

I get the impression you didn't even bother to read my post in full before shouting (what posting in CAPS is, which by the way is obnoxious)

NO THIS IS SHOUTING - Putting a single word in caps is emphasis in plain text. And I did read your post, and frankly it made me sick.

I never complained about using dining or shopping as part of the experience

No, you claimed the entire purpose of the place was merch and dining - which is an obtuse way of seeing a race car and calling it a really bad commuter car. A statement that misses completely how and why something is.
 

WDWFanDave

Well-Known Member
Spirited Weekend Musings:

Well, nothing like waiting on a real life autopsy to do one on the recent fan community hysterics. But I would be remiss if I didn't thank all if you for the kind words and notes during a very crappy period. We got some crazies here to be sure, but at least they are nice crazies. And classy ones.

First, since I awoke to it in print this morning, let's talk about Soup & Salad Sandra's story on Frozen at EPCOT. I am sure she thinks it was fair and balanced. I am sure Celebration Place still feels like they were viciously and unfairly attacked by the evil Sentinel. And I am sure that every Lifestyler quoted in it will attempt (laughably) to use their presence in it to push their significance to Disney.

The story, which ran with the headline ''Epcot moves from culture to cartoons" (the most hard-hitting theme) here in SoFl., was largely written from the conclusion that Disney was just giving people what they wanted and that was a good thing. That's not how a truly fair and balanced piece should be structured, even if it is common in journalism today.

The story fell into the same potholes that the fan community has since word started leaking of this earlier in the year.

Look, you can think this is the greatest thing in the world, the worst thing, something in between or not gives **** at all. But you don't get to go change the rules for what should be on the menu in a given park just because it is easy, lazy and convenient to do so. You know, like Disney doing the easy, lazy and convenient thing by sticking in Frozen and then trying to contrive any backstory or press release that explains it away.

Frozen is going into Norway not because the film was (fill this part of my post in with some blather talking about the landscapes, culture and natural beauty of Norway serving as inspiration and whatever you come up with will likely make as much sense as what Disney has) ... Nope, Frozen is going into Norway because why spend hundreds of millions of dollars on creating something new at either MK or whatever they call the Studios park in a few years, both places where it would fit, when you can spend well under $100 million on replacing an attraction at a park that is desperate for something new that isn't the $6 ' sample' of the year at Food and Wine 2014?

At the risk of sounding like my little pal the Epcot Explorer, the thematic integrity disintegrates into chaos when you try and rewrite the mission statement of a park little by little. I was at EPCOT Center when it opened and have been there annually many times annually since. When it opened there was no presence of Disney characters at all. None. Except for on some merchandise at the Centorium. The only characters were Figment and Dreamfinder. And it was like that for years. Indeed, when Disney foamheads came to EPCOT, they weren't everywhere and they didn't overpower. They had a character bus. They'd dress in funky spacey outfits in FW. Maybe they'd be part of a show at America Gardens. But they complimented what existed. They didn't clash (you know, like the Marvel BRAND does with Disney no matter how hard it makes Bob Iger).

You can talk until you no longer have a voice or type until you break the crappy keypad on your new iPhone6 and you still won't be able to come up with a rational reason for why bringing toons to the World Showcase in such a blatant money-grubbing fashion is somehow good and the right choice. Sure, you can like it. You can defend it based on your opinion. But you can't defend it based upon the ethos (God, I am sounding like a cross between EE and Fidel's Little Bro Andy) that created the place. You can,t because it fundamentally goes against everything WS was about. And whether you liked Maelstrom, hated it or were ambivalent about it also isn't the point.

Something either fits or it doesn't-

One of WDW's biggest problems, and it has plenty as it becomes middle aged, is an identity crisis. We touch upon it here in so many threads from recreating DD yet again and what should or shouldn't be there to the proliferation of DVC to upcharge events ... It's sorta like the 19-year-old fresh faced farm boy from Kansas that comes to WDW to come out and see who he really is. Except WDW really doesn't know what it is or what it is supposed to be in the 21st century. There is no cohesion. No vision. Nothing but crappy branded merchandise that links the giant resort. ....So, instead of committing to visions, to identities for WDW as a whole and the individual parks on their own, Disney has done the cheap, easy, lazy and convenient ... If it has something to do with a Disney BRAND, franchise or IP, then it belongs anywhere and everywhere.

Hey, let's be honest, the vast majority of WDW fans today were certainly not fans in the 70s, most not in the 80s either, and a large part were just getting their feet wet with Disney in the 90s (even if they have books, blogs or podcasts today). They believe that if Disney puts something in a park, then that is enough to say it belongs. Forget about John Hench, Herb Ryman, Marc Davis. Marty Sklar still shows up at D23 events, so he must agree with what the WDC is doing, right?

Of course, Guardians of the Galaxy belongs anywhere ... And Sofia the First ... And Yoda's Tatooine Review Dinner Show and ... Toon Princesses belting out Let it Go in what was supposed to be a pavilion about the culture, history and people of Norway. I am sure that 19-year-old farm boy will be singing his way through it and that's what's important, right?

Disney got where it did by giving people what they asked for, right?

You do realize how wrong that statement is, don't you? You do realize that none of the most amazing things Disney has created would have ever happened by ''giving people what they asked for''?

Disney, in Orlando, is becoming like Subway. Bland and boring, but safe, and the exact same everywhere.

Going back to Sandra's story, one can only wonder why she never bothered to look at old copies of her newspaper (I have them) from 1982 and read about what World Showcase was about and write a story about why Disney has decided to move away and bastardize that vision. She might have asked why Disney is pitching $500 million Frozen projects in Asia that are fully thought out while shoehorning a cheap (yes, $75 million is cheap) overlay into a place it doesn't belong. She might want to walk back her statement that kids learn about transportation in 20 minutes on their toys, so they need Tron Track so they don,t need ADD meds. But ultimately, it wouldn't' matter. Until there is a major housecleaning at the company, this is simply what will continue to happen.

From Bob, Tom and Jay down to Glendale over to TDO ... Time to bring in the industrial strength enemas.

BTW, I heard that @ScarlettAshley1 dropped in. I would hoped you treated her well and that she'll be around from time to time. I'd like to hear her perspective ..

Let me first express my sincere condolences. Having been through the long sickness and death of someone very close over the last year, I can relate, and I truly hope that the days ahead begin to brighten for you and your family.

For those who never got to see EPCOT 'way back when', I'm not sure that any of us could ever help them imagine or even understand the overwhelming feeling of amazement that I believe many of us experienced when we first (and subsequently) visited EPCOT in the years following its opening.

I still have the brochure from visiting the welcome center on Main Street USA (in the building where the Mickey meet 'n greet now is), in 1981, that was distributed during the EPCOT preview. In fact, I'll post some pics of it here in a moment. I even have a license plate hanging on my wall from my first visit in 1983, the year after it opened (we used to go every other year), and just love it..."EPCOT Center The Newest Wonder of the World".

Sadly, those days are gone. Is it still a nice place to go? Sure. But, I'd certainly argue that it's nothing special. There is just so much missing...so much empty space, so many things closed, and, for those that have been repurposed into something else...well, let's just say that most retail stores that remodel do a better job (WoL pavilion I'm looking at you).

A recent visit (yep, I got suckered into going again) left me feeling as though some things were better than last year, and some weren't. I did enjoy the trip, and actually did a wider variety of things this time than at any recent time in the past. All in all, from the non-working ice machine on our floor and moldy/mildewy issues in our room, to the very noticeable parts of attractions that were not working, and the monorail car that had a floor that I stuck to, I'd have to say there are miles to go before it ever gets better. Did I bring up the issues? Yep, every last one of them. Were they addressed? What do you think...(that would be an answer of 'no')?

Disney will likely get some of our money next year, but on the other coast. Never been to Disneyland, and with it being the 60th, well, I guess it'll be a good time to go.

Anyway, if I ever get around to it, I'll post a trip report and share the pictures of the mold and/or mildew in the tile grout and all over the shower curtain hooks in our room, the maintenance ticket that I finally noticed on the ice machine that showed it had been non-working for at least two weeks before we checked in (and NO ONE seemed to know anything about it...and yes, I checked every single day, even with 'managers'), and others too. I did enjoy the Frozen additions to DHS (although I mostly enjoyed seeing them through my DD's eyes), and thought that the historians in the sing-along show were fantastic, especially considering how short of a time they had to pull that show together. Oh, and just to make sure no one thinks all I do is complain...every single time I found something I thought was great...I made sure to tell them about those too :)

Ok, enough of my rambling. Here are those pics:
iPhone Pics Oct 2012 188.jpg iPhone Pics Oct 2012 189.jpg iPhone Pics Oct 2012 190.jpg iPhone Pics Oct 2012 191.jpg iPhone Pics Oct 2012 192.jpg iPhone Pics Oct 2012 193.jpg iPhone Pics Oct 2012 194.jpg
 

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