The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[ParentsOf4]

One day ticket has really gone up, but I wonder how many people who enter the park only have a day ticket. Disney seems to want you to spend several days in all the parks, tickets price go down to $60 at 5 days and all the way down to $35 per ticket at ten days. I still believe the one day tickets seem high, but are really in line with other parks in my opinion, however I think the goal of WDW resort and parks are Not to be just something you do when you are on vacation, they want to be your vacation

There are a surprisingly large number of guests who buy one-day tickets at the gate.

My favorite personal story happened a few years ago when I was staying at the Dolphin. I struck up a conversion with another family at the pool and we happened to get onto the subject of tickets. They explained to me that they were buying one-day tickets every day. I repeatedly tried to explain to them that they were paying far more than if they simply bought a multi-day ticket but, no matter what a said, they were convinced that buying one-day tickets every day was less expensive.

Whether a single day, multiday, or annual pass, ticket price trends are consistent across the decades. Ever since the late 1990s, ticket prices have exploded. I tend to graph one-day tickets because that's the only ticket type that has existed for the entire history of WDW without significant changes in benefits.

Even a one day ticket is slightly confusing because WDW used to sell admission and rides separately. For example, in 1971, park admission cost $3.50 while a 12-ride Adventure Book (the most that WDW offered) cost $5.85. I've compensated for this by adding the two together in the graph. (Note that some attractions were included in the price of admission.)

The one radical departure in ticket pricing occurred at the very end of Eisner's tenure, when P&R was desperately trying to recover from a post-9/11 economy.

The Magic Your Way (MYW) ticket was introduced in 2005, offering a la cart pricing. Prior to that, WDW tickets tended to be all-inclusive. Most automatically included the 'park hopping' and 'water parks & more' options. Many also automatically included the 'no expiration' option.

The MYW offered a no-frills option: entry into one theme park per day at a significantly reduced price. It offered a low-cost option for visiting a WDW theme park and, not surprisingly, business improved after that.

The irony is that comparable all-inclusive tickets leaped in price that year. However, since most did not care about the 'no expiration' option while many others were willing to forgo the 'park hopping' and 'water parks & more' options, the price of a WDW vacation dropped for many. Furthermore, to encourage more visits, Disney practically gave away tickets after 4 days. (Only $4/day more for tickets longer than 4 days.)

With guests paying less for tickets, and much less for longer length tickets, guests were able to spend more on hotels. Along with the introduction of Disney's Magical Express (DME) in 2005, WDW's hotel occupancy leaped upward.

What Disney did in 2005 was make the total price of a WDW vacation less expensive by offering lower ticket prices and free airport transportation. By doing so, Disney was able to capture a larger share of vacation dollars because guests were less likely to rent cars and stay offsite.

The goal was not to squeeze every penny out of guests. It was to provide a more affordable, more convenient, longer stay vacation package that allowed WDW to ultimately capture a larger share of the market. MYW and DME gave paying customers real reasons to book longer onsite stays at WDW.

Ultimately, it produced a boom in WDW business that lasted until "The Great Recession".

In 2011, 2012, and 2013, the goal has been very different. It's been to squeeze every last penny out of guests. MyMagic+ along with its MagicBand gimmick simply reflects more of that same thinking.

Squeezing pennies out of paying customers is not the way to grow a business. Corporate Disney needs to be more creative, like they were in 2005.

 

[wogwog]

There are a surprisingly large number of guests who buy one-day tickets at the gate.

My favorite personal story happened a few years ago when I was staying at the Dolphin. I struck up a conversion with another family at the pool and we happened to get onto the subject of tickets. They explained to me that they were buying one-day tickets every day. I repeatedly tried to explain to them that they were paying far more than if they simply bought a multi-day ticket but, no matter what a said, they were convinced that buying one-day tickets every day was less expensive.

Whether a single day, multiday, or annual pass, ticket price trends are consistent across the decades. Ever since the late 1990s, there has been an explosion of ticket prices. I tend to graph one-day tickets because that's the only ticket type that has existed for the entire history of WDW without significant changes in benefits.

Even a one day ticket is slightly confusing because WDW used to sell admission and rides separately. For example, in 1971, park admission cost $3.50 while a 12-ride Adventure Book (the most that WDW offered) cost $5.85. I've compensated for this by adding the two together in the graph. (Note that some attractions were included in the price of admission.)

The one radical departure in ticket pricing occurred at the very end of Eisner's tenure, when P&R was desperately trying to recover from a post-9/11 economy.

The Magic Your Way (MYW) ticket was introduced in 2005, offering a la cart pricing. Prior to that, WDW tickets tended to be all-inclusive. Most automatically included the 'park hopping' and 'water parks & more' options. Many also automatically included the 'no expiration' option.

The MYW offered a no-frills option: entry into one theme park per day at a significantly reduced price. It offered a low-cost option for visiting a WDW theme park and, not surprisingly, business improved after that.

The irony is that comparable all-inclusive tickets leaped in price that year. However, since most did not care about the 'no expiration' option while many others were willing to forgo the 'park hopping' and 'water parks & more' option, the price of a WDW vacation dropped for many. Furthermore, to encourage more visits, Disney practically gave away tickets after 4 days. (Only $4/day more for tickets longer than 4 days.)

With guests paying less for tickets, and much less for longer length tickets, guests were able to spend more on hotels. Along with the introduction of Disney's Magical Express (DME) in 2005, WDW's hotel occupancy leaped upward.

What Disney did in 2005 was make the total price of a WDW vacation less expensive by offering lower ticket prices and free airport transportation. By doing so, Disney was able to capture a larger share of vacation dollars because guests were less likely to rent cars and stay offsite.

The goal was not to squeeze every penny out of guests. It was to provide a more affordable, more convenient, longer stay vacation package that allowed WDW to ultimately capture a larger share of the market. MYW and DME gave paying customers real reasons to book longer onsite stays at WDW.

Ultimately, it produced a boom in WDW business that lasted until "The Great Recession".

In 2011, 2012, and 2013, the goal has been very different. It's been to squeeze every last penny out of guests. My Disney Experience along with its MagicBand gimmick simply reflects more of that same thinking.

Squeezing pennies out of paying customers is not the way to grow a business. Corporate Disney needs to be more creative, like they were in 2005.

Good historical review. I do not think the greed will subside until the end of the reign of Iger. If he changed tactics now it would be a tacit admission he has been wrong for years. I doubt his personality would allow him to do such a thing.

 

[Goofyernmost]

The merchandise is indeed a problem. Last year, a friend visited me and couldn't find anything to spend $$$ on. She brought about $300 for souvenirs and purchased a single t-shirt.

Most mugs aren't dishwasher safe. Pins and Vinylmation appeal to a certain demographic. Nearly all collectibles are also available online or at a Hallmark store. Most t-shirts are insanely overpriced, and the average consumer knows enough about quality to realize it's just a Hanes Beefy Tee. Between the prices and the variety, Disney needs to get its merch act together.

Wait, she couldn't find anything to spend money on, so she only spent $300.00+ for souvenirs? What? I don't think I have spent $300.00 on souvenirs over the 31 years that I have been regularly going there. Damn, I must be poor.

Are you sure you don't mean Dole Whip?

Not a Dole Whip, but a Dole Whip Float will nicely wash down the Mickey Bar. Dole is the second reason for going, but the line cannot be any longer then to Jacksonville.

We just got back from a trip to Disney, and on this trip we spent the way we always have. However, looking at the total that we spent, I am thinking of not renewing our APs which expire in August. We don't have another trip booked and we are thinking to delay our next trip. If we stay away for 9 months or a year, we can save some money. I think that we are not alone in thinking that the total spent is too much.

Walt Disney said that it was important to provide value to Disneyland guests. Value for dollar spent keeps people returning. We ate at the Hollywood and Vine Star Wars character dinner. It was a pleasant experience, but no where near balancing value for money spent. It was this dinner and the ridiculous costs that got us started thinking we were spending too much.

Sometimes one single experience can send you over a tipping point. That happened to us at the H&V dinner.

Prior to our WDW stay, we spent 4 days at HHI Disney resort. The difference in costs was notable. No theme park tickets, and no Disney dining. We actually bought Disney merchandise because we had extra money.

I agree with the previous posters when they imply that Disney will kill the golden goose with these price increases. When price increases exceed income, it will be OK for a while, but in the long term declines are inevitable.

I think pricing is a big part of what you are saying, but, perhaps we are falsely blaming ticket prices when it is actually the food and housing that is taking the biggest cut of the paycheck. After all the prices only went up a few percentage points. Not that much different from last year. All it did was point out how expensive it is to go to WDW, but I wonder if it's the ticket price or everything else.

My point is that if the bodies are still showing up, then the ticket price is not the problem. If more are staying offsite, blame that on the cost of staying in a Disney Resort Hotel. If people are eating in their room more, it's probably because the cost to eat at Disney, considering that the food isn't all that great, is far too expensive. Something is causing that reaction, but, I don't think it is the cost of admission alone. That is still pretty reasonable if we stop looking at it from a 1 day rate. People do still pay for it that way, but that is only because if you are only going for 1 day it is cheaper then buying multi-day tickets and then not using them.

In a holistic sense I think you and @ParentsOf4 are both correct. The parks are crowded. However, if you dig into Mr. 04's posts he is pointing out that there has been a deleterious impact on profits and revenue with the price hikes. My family would be a good example. We're just back from a WDW family reunion that I heavily financed and we've never eaten in the room so many times. Out of 6 dinners, we had 2 in the parks and 4 in my family's 1BR unit (we were a party of 9). Also, my family (which has been a WDW family since 1972) spent the least amount of money I've ever seen them spend on merchandise and there was lots of making fun of prices which didn't happen the last time I did this (6 years ago). So, we were there and in the parks en masse, but spending less. Vacations are my expense (wife and I both work and we have a monetary division of labor). For the first time EVER, my wife was looking at WDW prices and suggesting other things we could do next summer with the kids.

That sounds pretty much like the general reaction to today's WDW. However, we were talking about admission prices not the cost of a room, meals or useless trinkets. In my opinion, if Disney has any justifiable charges it is for the tickets. Everything else like room rates, meal prices and souvenir prices are what are unjustifiably through the roof. That is what people are spending less on and when one considers the profit margin on all those things it doesn't take too many doing it differently to bring the profits down.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Like anything affordability is sometimes a flexible thing. Yes, like many that can not afford a Rolls Royce, there are others that can. It is normal. Now if we (you or I) fall into the category of can't afford then it is a problem for us, but, just us. For everyone one that can no longer afford it they are finding others that can. The fact that the grouping of people no longer able or willing to spend that much money has merely moved up the ladder. There have been many people on the planet that have never been able to afford it. Even if the ticket price was low, the cost to get there was prohibitive.

I wish it was cheaper, because being retired, if the prices were better I might spend more time there, but, I now limit myself in the number of times I visit. Many retired people living strictly on Social Security haven't been able to go there for years. Different names, different faces. In many ways it's better for Disney to have it that way. All those new people are not complaining about falling quality or saying how things are just not like they used to be. For those people, whether we like it or not, the magic still happens.

So what it boils down to is that, if we want to go we will have to pay the prices, if we don't, we will find a different place that we can afford. I know you put a lot of effort in all those charts and grafts and I am impressed by them, but a venue like Disney is not bound by, in any way, shape or form, a chart of inflation. They are not a necessity and therefore people do not rely on them for any life sustaining reason. In my opinion, it just doesn't apply.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

However, I respectfully suggest you be careful when suggesting that the effects of inflation, consumer income, pricing, etc. do not bound a company, even Disney.

In a free market society, all companies ultimately play be the same economic rules.

The "new economy" was a very popular buzz phrase during the height of the dot-com bubble. At the time, many were roundly attacked for questioning the entire house of cards, which was built on the premise that the old economic rules of supply-and-demand, inflation, pricing, etc. did not apply.

We all know how badly that ended.

 

[alphac2005]

-The rest is all rumors and speculation. My son can't ride rumors and speculation or Star Wars Land yet. Also babyswap at Universal pales in comparison to babyswap at Disney.

You're kidding, right? We've had three children and have found the child swap to be vastly better at Universal for years. They make it incredibly easy and attractions like Men in Black, Transformers, and Harry Potter they even have themed rooms with seats, televisions, and they allow you to see the ride vehicles while waiting. I can't think of any Disney attraction that does that. I've also found with my disabled father that the GAC system at Universal has always been superior.

 

[flynnibus]

Thanks for the tips! However, have you seen the new International Terminal at LAX? It is quite amazing! It seems to be brand new and has all kind of cool screen effects and is really nice to hang out in! Lot's of great food choices as well. I looked around and found this blog post that describes it nicely. And it even shows the flight that I took (the AF A380).

I actually flew into John Wayne on my first ever visit to Disneyland in 1992!

Meh.. nice upgrade for LAX, but I don't find the visuals all that stunning. Oslo Gardermoen still looks nicer and is over 15yrs old. Glass, exposed wood, and Scandinavian minimalism age well

 

[tamotu99]

I don't always get my point across correctly, so... This thread is discussing the business model for TWDC in general for its P&R. I was saying that because my waitlist of 6 months didn't come through, the company let a customer walk away. They in no way tried, at all, to ensure I would pay to get into the theme parks, and hopefully spend more money in them.
There should be something in place that sees that a guest does not walk away from spending money. I didn't mean to infer that it was DVC's responsibility to do so. I am annoyed that I got no email saying my waitlist didn't come through though. DVC member services should have handed off my failed request to marketing, or whatever other department within the company. I mean, isn't it obvious that I wanted to spend money at Disney? I waitlisted 6 months out for a date I knew I could make. So, all the plans for those dates have changed, and Disney is not included in my plan B. They let a guest go elsewhere for a 3 night stay.

They don't need to, you are a dvc member, you have points and you willmspendnthem ancestry there

 

[doctornick]

You're kidding, right? We've had three children and have found the child swap to be vastly better at Universal for years. They make it incredibly easy and attractions like Men in Black, Transformers, and Harry Potter they even have themed rooms with seats, televisions, and they allow you to see the ride vehicles while waiting. I can't think of any Disney attraction that does that. I've also found with my disabled father that the GAC system at Universal has always been superior.

I think the child swap methods between Disney and Uni are quite different and both have pluses and minuses. The Uni ones tend to be more efficient because people ride back to back and keep the family together. The non-riding child gets to enjoy the queue, if it is interesting. But the downside is the non-riding child (and adults with the child)is stuck not doing an attraction for the duration at Uni while at Disney, the non-riding child and accompanying adult can go on another attraction or shop/eat/whatever. Also, the Disney rider swap pass can be used at any time, so there's more flexibility when to use it because you might not want the entire party to ride back to back.

Also, aren't there queues at Uni that do not allow strollers? I've heard people complain about having to wake sleeping children to go into the queue at Uni while at Disney you can just stroll the child up to the ride entrance and leave them sleep.

I would say that the Uni system is more efficient, but the Disney one is more flexible.

 

[Lord_Vader]

The hotel rooms are laughable in price. They are eventually going to have to fix the problem because no moderate is worth 200 a night.

Something I think everyone needs to keep in mind, value is in eye of the purchaser. Land values in my neighborhood are $100,000 for a 1/2 acre while I work with a lot of folks who would rather drive an hour each way because they were able to purchase a plot of land for $25,000 an acre. Same thing applies to people purchasing a Ralph Lauren polo for $85.00 when they could purchase a similar budget friendly version at JC Penny's for $12.00. The true worth of any item is the amount that someone/anyone is willing to pay.

My point... While IMO TDO charges too much for their resorts, their low 80% occupancy rate is above industry standards and if they drop the prices at all they drop them for 100% of the rooms they fill and not just the 20% they did not meaning they make less overall. And to boot, their occupancy did not go down much when they added 2,000 additional value rooms meaning they are selling more room nights than before which indicates to them that their pricing is not too high.

 

[flynnibus]

I think the child swap methods between Disney and Uni are quite different and both have pluses and minuses. The Uni ones tend to be more efficient because people ride back to back and keep the family together.

It boils down to. the UNI system works as purely a child swap.. where the Disney system can easily be exploited to result in more re-rides and FPs. 9 out of 10 times that's why they prefer the Disney model

 

[ParentsOf4]

My point... While IMO TDO charges too much for their resorts, their low 80% occupancy rate is above industry standards and if they drop the prices at all they drop them for 100% of the rooms they fill and not just the 20% they did not meaning they make less overall. And to boot, their occupancy did not go down much when they added 2,000 additional value rooms meaning they are selling more room nights than before which indicates to them that their pricing is not too high.

The entire Metro Orlando area averages about a 71% occupancy rate. Non-Disney WDW-area hotels average a higher occupancy rate, about 78%.

Excluding DVC, WDW hotels averaged an occupancy rate of about 76% last year.

WDW's hotel occupancy rate dropped by about 2% after the opening of Art Of Animation (AOA).

I suggest you view AOA as production line capacity. A company does not add capacity unless it thinks it will be needed. In the case of AOA, corporate Disney anticipated that MyMagic+ (MM+) would produce greater demand.

The decline in occupancy is partially explained by onsite guests downgrading from Disney's Moderate Resorts to experience AOA (resulting in lower occupancy rates there), AOA's badly priced 2-room "Family Suites", and the delayed rollout of MM+. Added together, AOA currently means lower margins for WDW.

The jury is still out on MM+. We need to give MM+ another 4 or 5 quarters to see how this aspect plays out.

I think Disney needs to completely rebaseline the pricing structure of all of its Value Resort Family Suites.

Finally, Disney needs to come up with a strategy (there are several possibilities) to improve occupancy at its Deluxe and Moderate Resorts.

 

[The Mom]

Wait, she couldn't find anything to spend money on, so she only spent $300.00+ for souvenirs? What? I don't think I have spent $300.00 on souvenirs over the 31 years that I have been regularly going there. Damn, I must be poor.


.

He meant that she had budgeted $300, but only purchased 1 T-shirt because she didn't see anything else she wanted to purchase.

I actually have spent that much on souvenirs back when each area had theme specific items. I still have a hammered brass fireplace bellows that I purchased in Morocco a couple of decades ago - and it was made in Morocco! I went back and purchased another for a gift, but when I wanted a third, they were gone.

My daughter still has a kimono purchased in Japan, and we have a couple of teapots purchased there. I used to make multiple trips a year, so didn't purchase everything in one trip, but if I hadn't spaced them, I would have spent over $300.

 

[choco choco]

Meh.. nice upgrade for LAX, but I don't find the visuals all that stunning. Oslo Gardermoen still looks nicer and is over 15yrs old. Glass, exposed wood, and Scandinavian minimalism age well

Since we're talking about beautiful airports, Madrid Barajas, the only airport I've ever been to that I've stopped to take pictures of.

The V-supports are rainbow sequenced, so that you can figure out where you are at the airport by identifying which spectrum you are in.

That gorgeous swooping roof is curvy as a supermodel's body, making that massive building feel, dare I say it, sensual....

 

[dupac]

He meant that she had budgeted $300, but only purchased 1 T-shirt because she didn't see anything else she wanted to purchase.

I actually have spent that much on souvenirs back when each area had theme specific items. I still have a hammered brass fireplace bellows that I purchased in Morocco a couple of decades ago - and it was made in Morocco! I went back and purchased another for a gift, but when I wanted a third, they were gone.

My daughter still has a kimono purchased in Japan, and we have a couple of teapots purchased there. I used to make multiple trips a year, so didn't purchase everything in one trip, but if I hadn't spaced them, I would have spent over $300.

Sigh. If only that kind of merchandise was still available. I remember shopping in France last visit; I was disappointed by the large amount of bags, purses, hats, etc, that had "Paris" scrawled across them. Really? I've seen those for every major tourist destination in the world. I'm not buying that.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

He meant that she had budgeted $300, but only purchased 1 T-shirt because she didn't see anything else she wanted to purchase.

I actually have spent that much on souvenirs back when each area had theme specific items. I still have a hammered brass fireplace bellows that I purchased in Morocco a couple of decades ago - and it was made in Morocco! I went back and purchased another for a gift, but when I wanted a third, they were gone.

My daughter still has a kimono purchased in Japan, and we have a couple of teapots purchased there. I used to make multiple trips a year, so didn't purchase everything in one trip, but if I hadn't spaced them, I would have spent over $300.

Last year in Epcot I managed to spend a whopping $65 on souvenirs. I went in with two fully loaded gift cards ($400) but couldn't find anything "authentic" enough that I actually could use, or wanted to buy. I ended up with a few handfuls of candy, because, well, lets face it, its candy a Mickey stein from Germany, and a cute little trinket box from Mexico. I *wanted* to spend more, I just couldn't find much that interested me or was a good enough value/price for me to buy it.

At some point, several Mickey bars were purchased as well. It was hot that day!

I do need to complain for a moment about something, though. We stayed at the Polynesian (first/last time that'll happen) and I bought a t-shirt from Boutiki. I know, I'm a noob, a rube, newbie, dumb, whatever, but I wanted it so I shelled out a disgusting $38 for it. It's been 13 months since it was purchased... it's stretched in parts (arms, chest, neck), shrunk in others (it was longer than it is now!) and the colors have completely faded. It looks positively awful after wearing it for about two hours. Lesson learned- no more tshirts from Disney parks/stores/websites.

I went to WDW with $400 in gift cards, $200 in cash, and a good chunk in my bank account. I came home with lots of money in my bank account (never touched it) and cash, and money left on one gift card which resulted in me withdrawing and going to the Disney Store to scoop up a few Animators dolls.

 

[dupac]

Yeah, quality is nonexistent. The Mickey tee from Walmart I have has lasted longer. I bought a pair of gold sandals with Mickey silhouette rhinestones in 09 and a rhinestone fell out the first time I wore them. Blah. They were super cute too. I've been burned too many times

 

[rael ramone]

They don't need to, you are a dvc member, you have points and you willmspendnthem ancestry there

A number of DVC owners aren't stepping foot in the parks or eating Disney food. They are cooking in their rooms and going to UNI.

And TDO knows this.... hence the big annual pass discount offered to DVC owners a while ago.

 

[twebber55]

A number of DVC owners aren't stepping foot in the parks or eating Disney food. They are cooking in their rooms and going to UNI.

And TDO knows this.... hence the big annual pass discount offered to DVC owners a while ago.

I ve been guilty of this in the past although last week we did a full week of parks

 

[Goofyernmost]

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

However, I respectfully suggest you be careful when suggesting that the effects of inflation, consumer income, pricing, etc. do not bound a company, even Disney.

In a free market society, all companies ultimately play be the same economic rules.

The "new economy" was a very popular buzz phrase during the height of the dot-com bubble. At the time, many were roundly attacked for questioning the entire house of cards, which was built on the premise that the old economic rules of supply-and-demand, inflation, pricing, etc. did not apply.

We all know how badly that ended.

I totally agree that they are or can be affected by the economy. In this case, however, I really feel that even though they would be drawn into the outlook, the economic rules are not dominant right now. (I can't emphasize the right now part of that statement enough.) I'm still thinking that until the time when they do reach that magic number, which apparently isn't right at this moment (who knows what tomorrow my bring ) they, because of the uniqueness of the business, are still driven by demand. Demand may change with the economy, but it doesn't seem to have changed much for them up to this point.

I completely believe that they are riding on a very dangerous track, but, it isn't the admission pricing that will spell disaster for them, it is the cost of everything else that is expected for a Disney break from reality. That is primarily the thought that I had when I heard that MM was supposed to "squeeze" more money out of current guests. I had to wonder where the power brokers at Disney were thinking that there was any extra money to be "squeezed" from anybody. All the marketing in the world will not produce money that isn't there from a responsible individual. Sure there will be some, but, not those that will be fiscally viable for future trips.

 

[twebber55]

@Ignohippo by the way how to train a dragon 2 is getting great reviews...do you want to call it quits now on our bet or see it through
#plentyoftimetosaveface