BrerJon
Well-Known Member
Is the Star Trek experience on a DVD/Blu-Ray as an extra? I didn't know that, but I guess it would make perfect sense to stick on the TNG Blu-Ray sets.
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The Spirited Back Nine ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
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Is the Star Trek experience on a DVD/Blu-Ray as an extra? I didn't know that, but I guess it would make perfect sense to stick on the TNG Blu-Ray sets.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Walt Disney World became obsessed with rides and other things "normal" guests "want." The parks were built out to have just enough rides to make people happy. The merchandise that sold best, what people want most, replaced everything. People don't want to sit and watch, gut the benches so more people can run to the rides. FastPass and FastPass+ revolve around getting people onto those rides so that they have done what they want and will then go shop at shops now full of what people said they want and eat at restaurants where the menus are more and more just what people say they want. For all of the impossible things Universal Orlando Resort has done in the market they too are still nothing compared to image and attendance of Dineyland or the EPCOT Center.I didn't say anyone said that; I quoted to and was responding to your post saying that "Focus on meaning and message is more important than rides."
I'm arguing that is not the case. It's a nice icing, but the cake is the rides and that's what brings folks to the parks.
Over the last five years, Orlando has gained several million new yearly theme park guests. Yet, in the same time period where all these new folks are coming to the area, attendance is flat at every Disney park except for MK, which has seen a slight bump. I think you'll find the reason for that being that folks are coming to visit non-Disney theme parks, and if they spend a day or two at WDW, that's the most likely park that gets picked.
Why are they coming now, and they didn't come for AK? A park which pretty much fits the theme/mission analysis as well as any Disney park (including DisneySeas). Lack of attractions.
Disney has coasted as long as they have because, even in spite of the fact they gave up on progress, they still have PotC, they still had Splash Mountain, etc. - no other theme parks can even approach those rides, until now when you have a new competitor in Universal. That's why WDW was the top of it's game - it's attractions were unmatched, and those classics still really are though Universal is really giving them the run for it, not because of really nebulous connections that are completely out of the minds of most guests.
I really do get the finer points, the intangibles - if I didn't, I wouldn't be discussing WDW on a message board - but I just don't think they are the most important thing to anyone aside from long-time fans. I think the folks that are choosing a vacation on those merits are going to places like Washington, DC or Williamsburg, VA - not a theme park vacation. No one makes rides like Disney did, and even the best Knott's-style dark ride still can't hold a candle to any of the classics.
To bring it back to the original reason the topic came up - If they end up doing a quality job on DHS and put in some amazing Star Wars attractions, an amazing Cars attraction, and start to compete again as making unquestionably world-class quality attractions - it's not going to matter what "theme" they settle on. The one they have is good enough - the "Hollywood that always is and never was" is stretched a bit with things like RnR, but it's also about as specific as "optimistic futurism".
I'm hoping for something simple, like "Disney Adventure Park", but I doubt they will go with that as IOA has the "adventure" part, not likely - but it really would accurately describe what we are getting, and eliminate any of these concerns and they can just focus on making quality rides and attractions to bring folks in and impress the heck out of 'em.
I guess not, if one is either a professor, or a Disney history fan, LOL.
If you ask the average Epcot guest what "optimistic futurism" is, they'd probably say "That I can get on Soarin' without waiting 90 minutes".
Those are very abstract concepts. That's my point. Folks don't dump $3-5K on a vacation at WDW based on those kinds of intellectual analysis of theme parks. I do understand what you are getting at in terms of a greater importance, but I think in a pie chart of what guests look for - "unifying theme" is one of the smaller, child-sized slices.
"World peace" is the cliche, easy answer to "What would you like to see in the future?" It's not this bizarre concept you keep trying to paint. It doesn't matter if you can do man on the street interviews were people explain it all.
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when you say "normal" do you really mean "most"
AEfx
Well-Known Member
Conversely, how many kids (and adults!) have been dragged through Epcot because they thought it was boring, and wanted to go to the park with the rides, especially in the early days?
I do get the point, and classic Epcot dark rides being lost puts a hole in my soul. But while in many ways I'm receptive to it myself (or I wouldn't be here), I just look at AK as a good example of what happens when too much emphasis is put on style and theme and message, and not enough on rides/attractions.
That's why I think all all that stuff is great - but secondary, because you can have the most profound conceptual ideas known to man woven in there, but what gets folks through the gate to see that stuff is exciting rides and attractions, not the other way around. As I said above, I do agree that they tend to be what appeals to those who become long-term fans, but we are not typical of guests (as I'm sure almost all of us can attest to getting "that look" when folks find out that you do or have visited WDW frequently, they don't understand the appeal in going even annually).
Of course, in a perfect world, I am sure everyone agrees - we want the best of both, which is what Disney used to do - and what they will hopefully do again.
I believe it's on the extras disc in the Film Collection Blu-ray Box set of the TNG films. Of course, it's just the video portions, but there is also a good doc about the place and it's closing. Talking about this and the BTTF one has me thinking I'll have to dig them out this week and watch them again. It's also got me wondering if the Aliens one (there is a simulator ride - I rode it once at the Empire State Building but I believe it's been cloned elsewhere) is on that set - there are 60 hours of extras on those, I have yet to comb that deeply through.
Of course, we also have the Sleeping Beauty walk-through one on that disc, and the original TLM ride on the TLM DVD (not sure if that made it to the Blu, haven't thought to check yet).
It would be very interesting to compile a list of the officially released ride-throughs like that. I'd like to see more of that - like the Batman/Justice League simulators that they do overseas at places like the WB park that we'll never see here stateside released on some of the Animated Batman discs.
I am totally gunning for Star Tours 1.0 though on the next Star Wars set...just seems too obvious to not include, plus it would be a nice sale pitch for it when it's being sold in the parks to folks that don't realize they could order it on their phone from Amazon and have it waiting at home when they get back, for half the price of what Disney will probably charge on site as they usually charge MSRP.
EDIT: Yup, just checked, the Aliens one is on that set as well.
I'm going to have fun today watching all these in a row LOL. Apparently it was also in SF, though I very definitely saw it in NYC at the ESB."Aliens: Ride at the Speed of Fright (SD, 8:16): Video footage from the iWerks Entertainment attraction at Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco."
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lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
As popular as this idea is, the "boring" park was more popular than the "non-boring" park.Conversely, how many kids (and adults!) have been dragged through Epcot because they thought it was boring, and wanted to go to the park with the rides, especially in the early days?
stevehousse
Well-Known Member
Agree! As fun as MK was when I was a kid, Epcot as a kid was always so unique and different and there wasn't and still isn't anything like it today. Even though it isn't the same as it used to be, Epcot is still my fav FL park and both my boys love Epcot! They are 6 and 3. It still makes me sad though that they will never experience the real Imagination ride or the Odyssey restaurant which was my fav as a kid! Those characters in their space suits were the best!
im a novice when it comes to theme parks when compared to others on this board but the reason i would say most like Epcot is its uniqueness as a theme park... its different than everything else
FigmentFreak
Well-Known Member
Change it from Epcot to Disneys Food Truck Park. Take out all the pavilions and replace them with food trucks, well except for Frozestrom.
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
Interesting that you mention Mohegan Sun, When I went there for the first time for a business meeting the place reminded me of the AKL, And I'd agree the rockwork was better than the rockwork seen at NFL.
Disney needs to take it's game to the next level and SOON.
Zac Skellington
Well-Known Member
I politely suggest that guests are not "more self-centered, lazy, careless, and disrespectful". The problem is money, specifically WDW's budgets.
Throughout the ages, the older generation often complained that the younger generation was "more self-centered, lazy, careless, and disrespectful". An old quote often misattributed to Socrates reads:
"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise."
Even though Socrates did not write these words, the sentiment is not new. I recall similar views being expressed in the 1970s and 1980s, during WDW's Golden Age.
I also recall WDW being pristine in the 1970s and 1980s. Today it's not.
People have not changed.
WDW has changed.
As you acknowledge, the parks start the morning "a little dusty". They also have nicks and scratches, chipped paint, worn fixtures, and burned out bulbs. Attractions have broken animatronics, month after month, year after year.
Beginning in the mid-1990s, WDW's maintenance budgets were slashed. Every year since, those "sharp-pencil guys" (as Walt Disney called them) figure out new ways to squeeze a few more pennies out of budgets. Over the last 20 years, this has resulted in a palpable decline in WDW quality.
The budget cuts also have resulted in a concept referred to as the Broken Windows Theory. It's the idea that when something is not properly maintained, it encourages petty vandalism and other bad behavior. It's the idea that people take visual cues from their surrounding environment to determine what behavior is acceptable.
Although the term dates back to the 1980s, it's a concept Walt Disney understood when he opened Disneyland in 1955. Quoting Walt:
"When I started on Disneyland, my wife used to say 'But why do you want to build an amusement park? They're so dirty.' I told her that was the point, mine wouldn't be."
Quoting Walt again:
"Everybody thinks that Disneyland is a goldmine but we have had our problems. You've got to work it and know how to handle it. Even trying to keep that park clean is a tremendous expense. And those sharp-pencil guys tell you, 'Walt, if we cut down on maintenance, we'd save a lot of money.' But I don't believe in that. It's like any other show on the road; it must be kept clean and fresh."
Walt understood that if you treat the customers and their surroundings with respect, they'll treat your business with respect.
If you charge them outrageous prices, pack them in to hour-long lines, and allow their surroundings to deteriorate, they are going to behave accordingly.
It's a concept completely lost by today's corporate Disney management.
I agree with 99.9% of what you have to say on here, so I'm not against the Broken Window Theory. However, I've seen ornamental brass butterflies ripped from the walls of a one year old Kidani Village, (not to be replaced or have the holes filled and painted). I've heard of guests stealing everything that's not bolted down on DCL. Last February I sailed on the Disney Fantasy, and was horrified at the state guests left the beautiful Walt Disney Theater after a one hour production. It looked as if John Belushi stood up and yelled, "FOOD FIGHT!!!".
GoofGoof
Premium Member
For me, as a kid at EC, post ride exhibits were just as good as the rides themselves. Most pavilions needed a minimum of an hour to fully explore. At the end of the 12 hour day I may have only ridden 8 actual rides but it was a full day experience. In an hour I would ride SSE and then explore the post ride exhibits. In the same hour at MK I may have ridden IASW, PP, Tea Cups, Carousel and Toad. It's 5 to 1 on rides, but I enjoyed my time at EC more. For someone who judges their experience based on ride count I can understand feeling EPCOT is a shell of a park.
Over the years I have heard many visitors say EPCOT is boring or has nothing for kids. I never got that and still don't. It's not as force fed to you as MK, but if you enjoy exploring a little and take the time to absorb the environment it has plenty to offer.
WildcatDen
Well-Known Member
randyrut
Active Member
So my 8 year old is a Disney World fanatic. Part of the reason we usually go once a year or so. He is only 8, but EPCOT is his second fav park behind MK. He loves the usual rides, TT, Soarin, etc. But surprisingly, he enjoys the "brainy" aspects of the park even more. He loves Ellen's Energy Adventure, the "greenhouse ride, and "the big ball". He wants to ride them more than the others. And he also loves walking around the World Showcase, always asking questions and interacting. I understand some updating is needed, but it isnt right to say no kids want to ride such and such, or the park is terrible. He loves EPCOT and I am proud of the fact that he does!
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
It appears you and I are in agreement. A broken window does not justify guests breaking more windows. "Everyone else was speeding" is no reason not pay your speeding ticket. (Although that has been argued, sometimes successfully, in court.
)What I am suggesting is that the overwhelming culprit of this bad behavior at WDW is Disney itself. It is the way Disney as a business has been treating its 'guests' in recent years, versus how Disney used to treat its guests.
When I pay $15 for a meal, I have one level of expectation. When I pay $60 for a meal, I have a different level of expectation.
$15 and $60 are not arbitrary numbers. That's how much the price of a meal at Cinderella's Royal Table has increased in the last dozen years. At $60 per plate, doesn't the consumer have a right to demand more, and be upset about it if Disney fails to deliver?
At the hotels, rooms at the Contemporary used to be available for the inflation-adjusted equivalent of about $150-to-$200/night.
Back in the 1970s and 1980s, today's equivalent of $200/night was not cheap and many families had to stretch to afford it but service was outstanding. Year after year, Disney reported occupancy rates of 95% or above. People knew they were getting a great deal.
Heck, it wasn't that long ago (mid-2000s) that I remember getting a room in the Garden Wing of the Contemporary in the spring for about $230/night with no discount.
Today, that same room lists for $436/night.
Disney was famous for its army of comparatively well-paid custodial staff. A CM might receive 30-50% more than they do today, and with better perks. It encouraged harder work since CMs knew they had a plumb job.
High-level managers were there on the front lines every day, leading by example. Today, they hide behind their desks or sit in endless meetings with their heads buried in their smart phones.
The higher pay coupled with more involved management led to the most valuable asset when running an organization: pride of work. Sadly, 'leaders' such as Iger and Rasulo don't understand what a transformational effect this has on a workplace. They think a bunch of PowerPoint slides titled "The Disney Difference" is a substitute for real leadership.
Back in WDW's Golden Age, broken and worn items were replaced immediately. My favorite personal example is what I call the "bench incident".
I was at the central hub at MK in the 1980s with friends and noticed a bench with chipped paint on one arm. We joked about it for the rest of the day. We even took a photo. Wouldn't you know it, we came back the next day and the chip was fixed to the point that we couldn't see where the chip had been! That was the level of maintenance WDW provided to its guests.
Let's consider alcohol. Even after it became available at the parks, alcohol was found only in the restaurants. Guests didn't get sloshed the way they do today because alcohol wasn't "in your face" the way it is today. Guess what? Drunk people tend to behave worse than sober people.
As we read over-and-over, the theme parks have never been so crowded. 'Guests' are waiting in lines that are longer than ever. Guests are spending huge sums only to be treated like cattle.
Meanwhile, Disney's domestic capital expenditure is once again at a record low under Iger and Rasulo. Hey guys, rather than dragging your feet, why not stop spending tens-of-billions lining your own pockets with stock buybacks and start spending on additional capacity, new attractions, and even a 5th Gate to help relieve the overcrowding?
The point is that all these changes, instituted by Disney management in order to squeeze pennies out of their 'guests', have changed the way Disney treats its 'guests', resulting in a cultural shift in the way 'guests' behave at WDW.
Yes, 'guests' might be behaving worse than they did before, but it's largely because Disney has never treated them this badly before.
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BrerJon
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you have a smart kid. I think Epcot/EPCOT has always had extra appeal to cleverer children who are very perceptive and like to look at the little details in things and explore topics in more depth. It's good that it can still do that today, even if it is less powerful than it was in its heyday.
baymenxpac
Well-Known Member
i think @ParentsOf4 has hit nicely on something that exists in the id of many current WDW guests. it's the prevailing idea that, "hey, i'm paying a ton of money to be here, i'm entitled to act how i want!" it's an attitude that has certainly become more evident in american culture as of late (the entitled attitude), but i certainly think it's conditioned more heavily at disney when you consider the insane sums of money people are forking over for their experience.
food and wine is a great example. i, personally, am a beer drinker. i enjoy beer, and would have a few if given the chance. but i just don't see how you can walk around and get sloshed at F&W without requiring a second mortgage on your house. when people do make that investment, they go for broke, because...hey, i'm dropping hundreds of dollars on booze and appetizers, i might as well get my money's worth.
that's not to say a guest didn't behave badly in the '70s or '80s or early '90s, when quality was at its peak. it's also not to say that there aren't nice, fun-loving, well-behaved families at WDW every single day in current times. it's just to say: when you rip people off by upcharging and overcharging for a lesser experience than they're used to, their attitude -- on some level -- responds accordingly.
food and wine is a great example. i, personally, am a beer drinker. i enjoy beer, and would have a few if given the chance. but i just don't see how you can walk around and get sloshed at F&W without requiring a second mortgage on your house. when people do make that investment, they go for broke, because...hey, i'm dropping hundreds of dollars on booze and appetizers, i might as well get my money's worth.
that's not to say a guest didn't behave badly in the '70s or '80s or early '90s, when quality was at its peak. it's also not to say that there aren't nice, fun-loving, well-behaved families at WDW every single day in current times. it's just to say: when you rip people off by upcharging and overcharging for a lesser experience than they're used to, their attitude -- on some level -- responds accordingly.
DC0703
Well-Known Member
I hate to admit it, but I remember finding Epcot boring when I was a kid (back in the '80s). My sisters and I liked the Imagination ride and the Mexico boat ride, but would complain that the rest was "too much like school" (our way of saying that we wanted more Mickey and less science) and ask to go back to MK. It wasn't until I was older that Epcot really grew on me and became my favorite park. Now I could spend the whole day just wandering around World Showcase.
To that end, I can understand the inclination to put more characters in the park and add more rides like Test Track, even if they dilute the original theme and it's not what I would prefer as an adult.
RayTheFirefly
Well-Known Member
I get that F&W is expensive, but I really don't think it deserves all the hate it gets. The BF and I were at F&W on a Saturday in October, and we ate and drank all day (from opening 'til Illuminations; we would split a dish and drink at each booth that looked good), and it ended up being about $60 a person when it was all said and done. I don't think $60 is half bad to literally be eating and drinking ALL day (in WDW of all places). We were full and had a nice little buzz going (yes we were composed and not a mess). And the lines were bad, but not horrendous. I've definitely seen worse.
Edit: I also get that it's not everyone's cup of tea. But just because one might not like something does not mean that that thing doesn't have value.
This was the first year that I've seen a few people who probably had too much, but in general everyone was behaving alright. Then again, as I've said in another thread, I am from New Orleans, so F&W just seems very tame to me
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randyrut
Active Member
I get that F&W is expensive, but I really don't think it deserves all the hate it gets. The BF and I were at F&W on a Saturday in October, and we ate and drank all day (from opening 'til Illuminations; we would split a dish and drink at each booth that looked good), and it ended up being about $60 a person when it was all said and done. I don't think $60 is half bad to literally be eating and drinking ALL day (in WDW of all places). We were full and had a nice little buzz going (yes we were composed and not a mess). And the lines were bad, but not horrendous. I've definitely seen worse.
This was the first year that I've seen a few people who probably had too much, but in general everyone was behaving alright. Then again, as I've said in another thread, I am from New Orleans, so F&W just seems very tame to me
I think I paid $11.00 for a Gray Goose lemonade slushie-type thing when I was at Epcot last. It was really good but lasted all of 2 minutes because it was 100 degrees. Prices are insane IMHO but I still pay them for whatever reason.
71jason
Well-Known Member
Ask any CM how many time they've heard "But I'm paying X thousand dollars on this vacation, I need ...".
It leads to the "commando" mentality, as well, and guest metrics built solely on the number of attractions experienced in a given day.