The Spirited Back Nine ...

[AEfx]

I just wonder, if TDO is going to put all those IPs in DHS - Star Wars, Cars, Toy Story - how the heck is it going to fit together in any logical way? Is any effort going to be put into any kind of logical transition? Or are we going to just walk from one area that features Mater and into another that features Chewbacca?

Yeah, I mean, how would one manage to, say, go from a medieval village setting to colonial America? Or from a western/frontier theme to African jungles?

Sarcasm aside, I'm sure they will do just fine. Let's hope for wonderful, immersive attractions and figure out how to decorate the bridges in between once we get to them.

Or the Tower of Terror. That thing is just note-perfect. Satisfying in every way. And unfortunately, it's probably the last really impressive, envelope-pushing ride we will ever see in any American Disney park, and we can thank Robert "Screw The Parks, The Stockholders Love Me!" Iger.

ToT was heavily cut as well. I remember my first time on it - it had been open a few years by then, and when we got to unload I was like - that was it? Seriously? For what it is yes, it's wonderfully themed - but it's really not a full experience to me. Based on everything I had seen and everything that folks had said (pre-Internet fandom) I really thought there was a ride, and the drop was the end of the ride. Not the ride itself.

The really last WOW attraction at WDW in my opinion was Splash Mountain - more than 20 years ago. I think that's what is ultimately depressing about how even the best case scenario for MGM/AK to get attention won't be complete for another 5-7 years, which means by the time MK gets a new E-ticket, it's going to have been thirty years in between new ones.

The other parks need the attention more - I won't argue that - but it's a very sobering thought to think that three decades will have passed before the MK even attempts to raise the bar. I love NFL, but I also am under no illusions that anything there is more than a solid-C ticket on it's own.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I know and I'm not happy about it, but, yes, I know...

Im sure someone will recreate it in Minecraft or something similar.

Don't get me wrong, I want Epcot to add countries and redevelop future world. I want it and it needs it - just nowhere as horribly bad as DHS does.

 

[GoofGoof]

Only because Test Track and Soarin' have ridiculously inflated wait times.

That's probably part of it.

I agree it needs work. I agree it isn't worth $90 (but neither are any of the parks outside MK). I just don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be. I still enjoy most of the pavilions other than Imagination. I like to spend a little time at the exhibits and looking around. I like to walk around World Showcase. I'm not local and I don't visit the parks multiple times a year so maybe my perspective is a little different. Things don't seem as stale when you haven't seen them in a year or 2.

 

[Progress.City]

Im sure someone will recreate it in Minecraft or something similar.

Don't get me wrong, I want Epcot to add countries and redevelop future world. I want it and it needs it - just nowhere as horribly bad as DHS does.

I'm sure they'll get around to it... Eventually... If they do, during Iger's term, he (Iger) would be handing off the theme parks to his successor in tip-top condition! Let's hope the successor keeps them that way and improves on them!

 

[AEfx]

The trouble is, there isn't much gushing about positives. The majority of the posts seem to be negative and/or fault finding. As I've said before, it can make you wonder why you want to go back for a vacation.

You'll find a good number of us go to Disneyland or other locations now instead, so actually - we don't.

Why do we continue to post here? Well, the company is usually...interesting, and the folks who post in general tend to be several factors more informed than your average bear, but most of all - we hope. We hope WDW will regain the crown it once had. We've had more than a decade of them not even trying to keep the crown, though. That disappointment can't help but come through.

So it's difficult to find positives to gush about, particularly when the most notable thing in the recent past is the ability to use a bracelet to pay for generic junk since they don't have much in the way of specific merch most of the time (though, getting better with the new Haunted Mansion stuff, credit where credit is due), since it was just so difficult to spend our money before the magic bracelet, and that the park experience we do at least have is being eaten away systematically by a militaristic planning system that boggles all common sense about how most folks would like to vacation.

But like I said, yay for Haunted Mansion merch - seriously, that little shop is probably the most exciting thing at WDW right now. I like TLM ride. Of course, that's slightly negated by my disgust of the BoG situation...nonthless, it's better than nothing, but no way near as good as it could, or should be, given the ever increasing costs at many times the rates of just about everything else.

 

[AEfx]

Different park, but since they are redoing DHS I think it could use a water based ride. Probably not Star Wars, but who knows. A Pixar based water ride would be cool. Either flume style or POC dark boat ride would work.

YES! PLEASE!

DHS really, really needs more water presence. That pond just ain't cuttin' it, LOL - and it very well might not make it through the next few years, anyway.

I don't see it working with Star Wars (the only possibility would be prequel based, but from what I understand about the direction being taken by the SW story teams, we won't be seeing Jar Jar anytime soon, if ever again at all), but I could see a great indoor/outdoor Indiana Jones ride. Scratch that - completely indoor, because if I say that, they'd probably end up doing 1/2 in, 1/2 out, if we start in the middle, it would end up being entirely outside with one little brief indoor show scene.

Not that it would ever likely happen anyway, but that sure would be a fun new direction to take Indy in, in terms of park usage.

Whichever one closed Tokyo Disneyland for a month and caused a Nuclear Meltdown, making a section of Japan uninhabitable for the rest of my lifetime.

Oh wait.

This may sound crass but I was amazed that during that time plane tickets didn't drop - I honestly gave enough thought about going over after they reopened that I checked out prices, thinking that surely tourism had dropped and they'd be dirt cheap. They weren't, still 2 grand. Funny, I look now and they are about 25% less a few years later. I guess I was just naive, but I really thought I'd be unique in even thinking about flying to that area at the time, LOL.

 

[Trauma]

Yeah, I mean, how would one manage to, say, go from a medieval village setting to colonial America? Or from a western/frontier theme to African jungles?

Sarcasm aside, I'm sure they will do just fine. Let's hope for wonderful, immersive attractions and figure out how to decorate the bridges in between once we get to them.




ToT was heavily cut as well. I remember my first time on it - it had been open a few years by then, and when we got to unload I was like - that was it? Seriously? For what it is yes, it's wonderfully themed - but it's really not a full experience to me. Based on everything I had seen and everything that folks had said (pre-Internet fandom) I really thought there was a ride, and the drop was the end of the ride. Not the ride itself.

The really last WOW attraction at WDW in my opinion was Splash Mountain - more than 20 years ago. I think that's what is ultimately depressing about how even the best case scenario for MGM/AK to get attention won't be complete for another 5-7 years, which means by the time MK gets a new E-ticket, it's going to have been thirty years in between new ones.

The other parks need the attention more - I won't argue that - but it's a very sobering thought to think that three decades will have passed before the MK even attempts to raise the bar. I love NFL, but I also am under no illusions that anything there is more than a solid-C ticket on it's own.

If every ride built has to be on a level with splash mountain to be considered a WOW attraction then we will all be waiting a very long time. Splash is a very very special thing, I wouldn't even consider forbidden journey to be on splashes level and FB is a WOW ride.

 

[Lee]

If every ride built has to be on a level with splash mountain to be considered a WOW attraction then we will all be waiting a very long time.

At MK, we have been waiting. For about 22 freakin' years.

 

[culturenthrills]

Yes. But thats also a failure for someone to pay attention to whats happening. Me? I refuse to take a hit. You just never turn your back on the play....

Ive had more close calls in basketball than football.

I got hit at a college basketball game. Not much you can do when you are sitting on the floor under the basket but take the hit and protect your camera. But hey it made it on the sports highlights that night.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I got hit at a college basketball game. Not much you can do when you are sitting on the floor under the basket but take the hit and protect your camera. But hey it made it on the sports highlights that night.

The NBA has changed a LOT of rules this year as to who is allowed on the baseline and what you can bring with you. Two spots were removed. Rubber lens hoods were mandated. Lots of BS. But the TV guys can do whatever they want....

 

[asianway]

At MK, we have been waiting. For about 22 freakin' years.

Feels like yesterday I was watching them place the final landscaping touches the day before it opened

 

[AEfx]

Disney's Hollywood Studios never had a very profound thesis. Disney's Animal Kingdom is still rather focused. Focus on meaning and message is more important than rides.

If that's the case, why isn't Animal Kingdom the #1 theme park in the country? It certainly is the most heavily themed/messaged domestic theme-park. Yet, the place barely remains open bankers hours, and even then folks have a hard time filling up the day there especially if you aren't a first-time visitor.

I agree that DHS never had a true unifying theme - some think that the "real live studio" was a part of it, and somehow got sidetracked, but in truth it never was, nor did they ever really intend it to be a working studio. What happened was really transparent - Universal was coming, St. Eisner decided to stretch one proposed Epcot ride into an entire park to try and cut them off at the pass.

The joke was kind of on them, though, as they erroneously thought Universal was going to attempt to replicate the "working studio" park in Florida, so they spent a great deal of effort on pretending they were going to do the same - only for USF to actually open and largely had dropped the conceit entirely.

They did do a fantastic job of the fiction, though, as you can see since the myth perpetuates even today - folks really don't understand how things were entirely fabricated and what little filming ever happened (notably the MMC and that other Disney Channel show) were simply brought there to help publicize the park. Folks forget now that Disney Channel used to be a premium channel like HBO or SHOWTIME, and that little insert of the water tower saying "Filmed at DISNEY-MGM STUDIOS" with a voice over making sure you saw it was only to advertise it continually to children who's household incomes were likely to coincide with those who would take a Disney vacation - never because they really truly wanted to make a "working" studio.

In any case, I think the romantic idea of parks having a "unifying theme" which has been said over and over in this thread is just that - more of a romantic fan idea than anything else, as it really does not hold up with the mountains of evidence, way back to Disneyland.

The "Disneyland-style" parks don't really have a "unifying theme" - they cover everything from space to American history to fairy tales and literary adventures. Epcot is very famously two different themes that literally were two models of different theme parks mushed together (and Future World is essentially Tomorrowland 2, until Tomorrowland 1 was retconned into being about the retro-future, see House of Tomorrow, etc). MGM - well, see above. DCA? If ever a park had identity problems...LOL.

So, stateside, the only park that truly has a unifying theme remotely near this ideal folks say should exist is AK, yet it's neck and neck for last place at WDW and only two places away from being the least attended Disney Park on the planet (after DCA and HKDL).

The answer is easy: attractions. More proof? Universal. Hate to beat the Potter horn, but neither of the lands built there really have much of a connection at all to a "unifying theme" to the parks they exist in - IOA marginally since that park has such a loose theme to begin with. Attendance numbers are up and have remained up at IOA somewhere around 60% due to the attractions/land that was built.

Folks come for attractions/rides, and while they appreciate very much when there are uniquely themed trash cans in each land, and when things in eyesight all match up, the overlaying "message and meaning" really isn't a concern. They don't look at the parks from that macro perspective. When you ask someone about a park, they will say, "Oh, the one with X ride?" most often as a reference point. Conversely, so many people rush through all the parks so quickly, that sometimes they can't remember which ride is in which park - while to us that seems ludicrous, we are odd ducks.

Disney needs to focus on putting investment dollars into quality attractions, the rally call for a "unifying theme" has never really happened stateside to begin with really, and when they have come close they end up paying too much attention to that aspect and missing on the reason folks come. Why did not more folks come to Florida when AK opened, why did it just cannibalize what was already there? Because it had a theme and message but forgot the most important things - it's the rides/experiences. PotC and Splash Mountain would be just as great rides even if they were in the middle of a bare parking lot - I really think that the focus on theme and such (especially now that it's so ubiquitous throughout life now - from restaurants and casinos to even dentist offices) is never going to be the draw that gee-biz-bang-wow attractions are, and Disney just doesn't seem to make those anymore.

I do hope that changes, sincerely. I have hope for Star Wars, but they've got about one more chance from me before I just give up on WDW doing anything but wallowing in mediocrity.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If that's the case, why isn't Animal Kingdom the #1 theme park in the country? It certainly is the most heavily themed/messaged domestic theme-park. Yet, the place barely remains open bankers hours, and even then folks have a hard time filling up the day there especially if you aren't a first-time visitor.

I agree that DHS never had a true unifying theme - some think that the "real live studio" was a part of it, and somehow got sidetracked, but in truth it never was, nor did they ever really intend it to be a working studio. What happened was really transparent - Universal was coming, St. Eisner decided to stretch one proposed Epcot ride into an entire park to try and cut them off at the pass.

The joke was kind of on them, though, as they erroneously thought Universal was going to attempt to replicate the "working studio" park in Florida, so they spent a great deal of effort on pretending they were going to do the same - only for USF to actually open and largely had dropped the conceit entirely.

They did do a fantastic job of the fiction, though, as you can see since the myth perpetuates even today - folks really don't understand how things were entirely fabricated and what little filming ever happened (notably the MMC and that other Disney Channel show) were simply brought there to help publicize the park. Folks forget now that Disney Channel used to be a premium channel like HBO or SHOWTIME, and that little insert of the water tower saying "Filmed at DISNEY-MGM STUDIOS" with a voice over making sure you saw it was only to advertise it continually to children who's household incomes were likely to coincide with those who would take a Disney vacation - never because they really truly wanted to make a "working" studio.

In any case, I think the romantic idea of parks having a "unifying theme" which has been said over and over in this thread is just that - more of a romantic fan idea than anything else, as it really does not hold up with the mountains of evidence, way back to Disneyland.

The "Disneyland-style" parks don't really have a "unifying theme" - they cover everything from space to American history to fairy tales and literary adventures. Epcot is very famously two different themes that literally were two models of different theme parks mushed together (and Future World is essentially Tomorrowland 2, until Tomorrowland 1 was retconned into being about the retro-future, see House of Tomorrow, etc). MGM - well, see above. DCA? If ever a park had identity problems...LOL.

So, stateside, the only park that truly has a unifying theme remotely near this ideal folks say should exist is AK, yet it's neck and neck for last place at WDW and only two places away from being the least attended Disney Park on the planet (after DCA and HKDL).

The answer is easy: attractions. More proof? Universal. Hate to beat the Potter horn, but neither of the lands built there really have much of a connection at all to a "unifying theme" to the parks they exist in - IOA marginally since that park has such a loose theme to begin with. Attendance numbers are up and have remained up at IOA somewhere around 60% due to the attractions/land that was built.

Folks come for attractions/rides, and while they appreciate very much when there are uniquely themed trash cans in each land, and when things in eyesight all match up, the overlaying "message and meaning" really isn't a concern. They don't look at the parks from that macro perspective. When you ask someone about a park, they will say, "Oh, the one with X ride?" most often as a reference point. Conversely, so many people rush through all the parks so quickly, that sometimes they can't remember which ride is in which park - while to us that seems ludicrous, we are odd ducks.

Disney needs to focus on putting investment dollars into quality attractions, the rally call for a "unifying theme" has never really happened stateside to begin with really, and when they have come close they end up paying too much attention to that aspect and missing on the reason folks come. Why did not more folks come to Florida when AK opened, why did it just cannibalize what was already there? Because it had a theme and message but forgot the most important things - it's the rides/experiences. PotC and Splash Mountain would be just as great rides even if they were in the middle of a bare parking lot - I really think that the focus on theme and such (especially now that it's so ubiquitous throughout life now - from restaurants and casinos to even dentist offices) is never going to be the draw that gee-biz-bang-wow attractions are, and Disney just doesn't seem to make those anymore.

I do hope that changes, sincerely. I have hope for Star Wars, but they've got about one more chance from me before I just give up on WDW doing anything but wallowing in mediocrity.

A strong message and philosophy is not one and the same as a single park-wide theme. Plenty of parks are well maintained and filled with great rides. What made Disneyland and the EPCOT Center cultural icons was their meaning beyond rides, their reflections and reassurances of our world.

And since it seems to be a popular misconception to repeat of late, the two EPCOT Center concepts of Future World and World Showcase both came right from EPCOT. They were together, split, and put back together.

 

[AEfx]

Right?! Disney and Nintendo already collaborated together with Wreck-It Ralph. I think a dark ride about the history and cultural influence of Mario/Video games via dark ride in Japan would be great!

Never gonna happen.

At the moment, Disney and Nintendo are actually a bit at odds (it's becoming kind of amusing in a passive aggressive way, except for the fans paying for it), namely over Nintendo introducing Amibo as a direct competitor to Disney Infinity.

They have definitely crossed paths but it's generally been cursory at best - for instance, Nintendo simply gave permission to use Bowser in WIR - just like many other companies licensed their characters. Though supposedly they were happy with it and want more of their characters in the next one.

That said, it's all besides the point because Nintendo simply wants nothing whatsoever to do with theme park attractions. They get asked about it at least once a year if not more at different talks/conferences/interviews about why they don't do it, either teaming with someone like Disney or on their own.

The answer is always the same, no, they are not interested. Sometimes, depending on who is being asked and where, and the quality of the translation, they actually sound almost offended at the very notion.

I am no expert on the Japanese culture, but I've always kind of understood from it that it's one of those cultural "things" that usually seem odd to Westerners but are very important to the Japanese. The sense I have always taken from it was that they tend to see theme park rides as rather base where on the other hand the Japanese culture holds video games in very high intellectual and artistic regard.

At first blush it seems a bit ironic in light of how very often Nintendo uses the Theme Park conceit in it's games (either as themed levels in Mario titles or very literally describing Nintendoland as a theme park experience and entirely modeling it on such, but even things like Animal Crossing have influences).

On the other hand - I think that's exactly how they view it - their games are theme parks for the mind, so it would disrespect their work to bring it out into a physical form (if you need that to add to the experience, they do not believe they are doing their job stimulating in you mentally). The closest thing I can come up with to it in American/Western culture is how one would look at teaching a class on Shakespeare using "10 Things I Hate About You" instead of the original text of Taming of the Shrew. Not exactly the same, but a similar relationship.

I do agree with you, though - it would be neat. Though I'd want Nintendo to go out on their own with it, Disney has enough IP's to play with at the moment, and I think Nintendo would be best served to come up with their own unique concept (maybe do what DisneyQuest couldn't) and for Disney to work it's magic on it's own existing properties.

Yes. But thats also a failure for someone to pay attention to whats happening. Me? I refuse to take a hit. You just never turn your back on the play....

Ive had more close calls in basketball than football.

 

[FigmentJedi]

Since we're obsessed with Tokyo, can we start talking about Godzilla, or is that to off topic?

Well it is his 60th birthday tomorrow. And Rodan did make a brief flyover in the 90s Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla film.

They all did...

Not really. Unless if you think Tokyo's the only city in Japan. There's 29 Godzilla movies (Emmerich's doesn't count) after all, so you can imagine Godzilla and his kaiju buddies have gone other places because Tokyo's gotten too routine.

 

[FigmentJedi]

Never gonna happen.

At the moment, Disney and Nintendo are actually a bit at odds (it's becoming kind of amusing in a passive aggressive way, except for the fans paying for it), namely over Nintendo introducing Amibo as a direct competitor to Disney Infinity.

They have definitely crossed paths but it's generally been cursory at best - for instance, Nintendo simply gave permission to use Bowser in WIR - just like many other companies licensed their characters. Though supposedly they were happy with it and want more of their characters in the next one.

That said, it's all besides the point because Nintendo simply wants nothing whatsoever to do with theme park attractions. They get asked about it at least once a year if not more at different talks/conferences/interviews about why they don't do it, either teaming with someone like Disney or on their own.

The answer is always the same, no, they are not interested. Sometimes, depending on who is being asked and where, and the quality of the translation, they actually sound almost offended at the very notion.

I am no expert on the Japanese culture, but I've always kind of understood from it that it's one of those cultural "things" that usually seem odd to Westerners but are very important to the Japanese. The sense I have always taken from it was that they tend to see theme park rides as rather base where on the other hand the Japanese culture holds video games in very high intellectual and artistic regard.

At first blush it seems a bit ironic in light of how very often Nintendo uses the Theme Park conceit in it's games (either as themed levels in Mario titles or very literally describing Nintendoland as a theme park experience and entirely modeling it on such, but even things like Animal Crossing have influences).

I swear I heard something more along the lines of some Nintendo guys thinking a "physical Nintendoland" would end up being too derivative of Disneyland and as you basically said, not worth the trouble.

They're perfectly fine with licensing out Pokemon for amusement park stuff though considering the shortlived traveling Pokemon Park carnival thing or that Pokemon Snap dark ride that briefly existed at Warner Bros Studios Park in Australia.

 

[AEfx]

A strong message and philosophy is not one and the same as a single park-wide theme. Plenty of parks are well maintained and filled with great rides. What made Disneyland and the EPCOT Center cultural icons was their meaning beyond rides, their reflections and reassurances of our world.

That's nebulous at best, which is what I was getting at. I do understand the difference in what folks are talking about vs. an absolute single theme - i.e. Star Wars Park, etc. I could have been more clear about that but was already running long.

In any case, that's the kind of romantic notion that I was referring to - pinning their success on "their reflections and reassurances of our world." I think the impression of that is what may attract long-term, passionate fans (like one might find here) but in terms of the general public audience - I really just don't think folks see Disney that way. I talk to a lot of people about Disney - when there is someone new in a work or social group I am meeting, the first thing they usually hear about me, aside from my charm and wit of course, is, "you're the guy who goes to Disney all the time" LOL - even though it's been years since I used to go 3-5 times anually.

The point is, it comes up all the time - from folks who are executives to those in janitorial. Daily. And never once have I had someone say the kinds of things you hear on a dedicated Disney message board about overall unifying messages, or even things like "I could spend all day in AK and be happy and not go on a single attraction" or any of the blissful magic stuff that even grumps like myself around these parts eat up and feel is part of the overall experience. They talk about the rides. Followed by characters, and then restaurants. You don't even hear the "magical employee" stuff that you used to anymore.

I think non-fans, i.e., the average guest - has many options for a vacation. And the reason they pick a WDW one is because they want rides/attractions/adventures. The thoughts of mission statements or grand statements really isn't a motivating factor for them. When you really get down to it, those sorts of things can influence folks into being long-term fans, again, like you'd see here - which is why folks assign them such importance - but I just don't think that is what turns those turnstiles in general.

And since it seems to be a popular misconception to repeat late, the two EPCOT Center concepts of Future World and World Showcase both came right from EPCOT. They were together, split, and put back together.

Noted, but I still think that in spite of their esoteric connection to the abandoned EPCOT Center project it's just that - very academic knowledge of a connection that only really matters to park history buffs.

 

[AEfx]

Oh it just figures, doesn't it - Dany will make it to Orlando before she finally gets her bony behind in gear and on it's way to Westeros.

Maybe she will come to free the slave children from IASW...

 

[FigmentJedi]

Oh yeah, another thing to mention on the Godzilla front that's pretty cool: The Japanese Blu-Ray of the 2014 American film is actually including a complete version of the Monster Planet of Godzilla ride from the mid-90s as a bonus feature. Made for some indoor Hello Kitty park, it basically worked like Funtastic World of Hanna Barbara, but with 3D and sensory effects.

Got some old B-roll of special effects footage (with some unfinished shots) shot for the ride here

 

[AEfx]

Oh yeah, another thing to mention on the Godzilla front that's pretty cool: The Japanese Blu-Ray of the 2014 American film is actually including a complete version of the Monster Planet of Godzilla ride from the mid-90s as a bonus feature. Made for some indoor Hello Kitty park, it basically worked like Funtastic World of Hanna Barbara, but with 3D and sensory effects.

Got some old B-roll of special effects footage (with some unfinished shots) shot for the ride here

I would have never looked at that title otherwise, but I might just pick it up based on just that.

I LOVED that they did that with Back to the Future, as well as the Star Trek Experience in Vegas. Rights issues often hold that sort of thing up, but it's so cool when it happens.

I never really thought about it, but man - it's pretty much certain that a Star Wars set comes out next year, and since Disney now owns Lucasfilm - it would be beyond amazing to get the original Star Tours video included as an extra.

Bonus points for a PIP option to have Rex on screen toggled.