The Spirited Back Nine ...

[lazyboy97o]

That's nebulous at best, which is what I was getting at. I do understand the difference in what folks are talking about vs. an absolute single theme - i.e. Star Wars Park, etc. I could have been more clear about that but was already running long.

In any case, that's the kind of romantic notion that I was referring to - pinning their success on "their reflections and reassurances of our world." I think the impression of that is what may attract long-term, passionate fans (like one might find here) but in terms of the general public audience - I really just don't think folks see Disney that way. I talk to a lot of people about Disney - when there is someone new in a work or social group I am meeting, the first thing they usually hear about me, aside from my charm and wit of course, is, "you're the guy who goes to Disney all the time" LOL - even though it's been years since I used to go 3-5 times anually.

The point is, it comes up all the time - from folks who are executives to those in janitorial. Daily. And never once have I had someone say the kinds of things you hear on a dedicated Disney message board about overall unifying messages, or even things like "I could spend all day in AK and be happy and not go on a single attraction" or any of the blissful magic stuff that even grumps like myself around these parts eat up and feel is part of the overall experience. They talk about the rides. Followed by characters, and then restaurants. You don't even hear the "magical employee" stuff that you used to anymore.

I think non-fans, i.e., the average guest - has many options for a vacation. And the reason they pick a WDW one is because they want rides/attractions/adventures. The thoughts of mission statements or grand statements really isn't a motivating factor for them. When you really get down to it, those sorts of things can influence folks into being long-term fans, again, like you'd see here - which is why folks assign them such importance - but I just don't think that is what turns those turnstiles in general.



Noted, but I still think that in spite of their esoteric connection to the abandoned EPCOT Center project it's just that - very academic knowledge of a connection that only really matters to park history buffs.

Who said anything about going around without ever doing rides? What sets Disney's rides apart is their connection to that larger experience. Despite what people talk about, if good rides and/or characters were enough more parks would be more successful.

There is nothing esoteric or academic about the connection between Future World and World Showcase. Greater global interaction, understanding and cooperation has long been a common element of optimistic futurism.

 

[ProfSavage]

I swear I heard something more along the lines of some Nintendo guys thinking a "physical Nintendoland" would end up being too derivative of Disneyland and as you basically said, not worth the trouble.

They're perfectly fine with licensing out Pokemon for amusement park stuff though considering the shortlived traveling Pokemon Park carnival thing or that Pokemon Snap dark ride that briefly existed at Warner Bros Studios Park in Australia.

You stop my response! I was going yo say the same thing...haha

but I appreciate your input @AEfx

 

[AEfx]

I swear I heard something more along the lines of some Nintendo guys thinking a "physical Nintendoland" would end up being too derivative of Disneyland and as you basically said, not worth the trouble.

They're perfectly fine with licensing out Pokemon for amusement park stuff though considering the shortlived traveling Pokemon Park carnival thing or that Pokemon Snap dark ride that briefly existed at Warner Bros Studios Park in Australia.

Yeah, I was running long - I actually was going to go in to the other areas they have avoided exploiting, namely films, with the notable exceptions previously mentioned (which were mostly at the height of Nintendo-mania in the early 90's). Interestingly enough, the SMB movie is coming out on Blu-ray this week - I got my shipping notice today, it's only being released in the UK but I have a copy on it's way across the pond. Around that same time period, you also had the brief runs of the Mario/Zelda cartoons and Captain N in the states. But really, given the IP possibilities and that they own some of the most valuable characters that are matched really only by Disney at this point, they simply don't explore those options very often.

In mentioning all that, it's only fair to point out Pokemon is the big exception, I think because it's always been very child oriented and completely exploited commercially, unlike they have allowed any of their other properties (Zelda, Mario, Metroid) to be. Back when they briefly experimented with the Mario film and associated cartoons was a time when Nintendo hype was so big and was so heavily merchandised they had their own branded breakfast cereal for crying out loud, LOL - that period was an anomaly, though.

I'm sure as to the theme park thing it depends, as I said, on who is talking, what the venue, or how good the quality of the translation is, but the statements I am referring to are the ones from the execs at Nintendo Japan and those in charge of the franchises. I think some of the younger folks would like to take some of those opportunities, but there is this institutional 'non-starter' thing about putting Mario, etc. in theme parks that comes from the top down as part of their philosophy.

 

[Cesar R M]

street entertainment

You mean.. the thing that was recently heavily slashed and barely patched?

he (Iger) would be handing off the theme parks to his successor in tip-top condition!

...iger... tip-top condition...

 

[FigmentJedi]

Yeah, I was running long - I actually was going to go in to the other areas they have avoided exploiting, namely films, with the notable exceptions previously mentioned (which were mostly at the height of Nintendo-mania in the early 90's). Interestingly enough, the SMB movie is coming out on Blu-ray this week - I got my shipping notice today, it's only being released in the UK but I have a copy on it's way across the pond. Around that same time period, you also had the brief runs of the Mario/Zelda cartoons and Captain N in the states. But really, given the IP possibilities and that they own some of the most valuable characters that are matched really only by Disney at this point, they simply don't explore those options very often.

In mentioning all that, it's only fair to point out Pokemon is the big exception, I think because it's always been very child oriented and completely exploited commercially, unlike they have allowed any of their other properties (Zelda, Mario, Metroid) to be. Back when they briefly experimented with the Mario film and associated cartoons was a time when Nintendo hype was so big and was so heavily merchandised they had their own branded breakfast cereal for crying out loud, LOL - that period was an anomaly, though.

I think it was a one-two punch of the Mario movie and the Phillips CD-I games that ended that major Mario/Zelda licensing period.

And you can't really blame them on that matter. I know I'd be hesitant to let outside groups play with my characters if they gave me something like this.

 

[Cesar R M]

The NBA has changed a LOT of rules this year as to who is allowed on the baseline and what you can bring with you. Two spots were removed. Rubber lens hoods were mandated. Lots of BS. But the TV guys can do whatever they want....

Is this conversation about that guy who got his lens destroyed during a college football match and then blamed the photographer for "hurting" the player?

 

[ProfSavage]

You mean.. the thing that was recently heavily slashed and barely patched?



...iger... tip-top condition...

Nothing to add, just wanted to comment on how that Idi Amin GIF brings me joy in ways I can't describe.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yeah, I was running long - I actually was going to go in to the other areas they have avoided exploiting, namely films, with the notable exceptions previously mentioned (which were mostly at the height of Nintendo-mania in the early 90's). Interestingly enough, the SMB movie is coming out on Blu-ray this week - I got my shipping notice today, it's only being released in the UK but I have a copy on it's way across the pond. Around that same time period, you also had the brief runs of the Mario/Zelda cartoons and Captain N in the states. But really, given the IP possibilities and that they own some of the most valuable characters that are matched really only by Disney at this point, they simply don't explore those options very often.

In mentioning all that, it's only fair to point out Pokemon is the big exception, I think because it's always been very child oriented and completely exploited commercially, unlike they have allowed any of their other properties (Zelda, Mario, Metroid) to be. Back when they briefly experimented with the Mario film and associated cartoons was a time when Nintendo hype was so big and was so heavily merchandised they had their own branded breakfast cereal for crying out loud, LOL - that period was an anomaly, though.

I'm sure as to the theme park thing it depends, as I said, on who is talking, what the venue, or how good the quality of the translation is, but the statements I am referring to are the ones from the execs at Nintendo Japan and those in charge of the franchises. I think some of the younger folks would like to take some of those opportunities, but there is this institutional 'non-starter' thing about putting Mario, etc. in theme parks that comes from the top down as part of their philosophy.

There was also a lot of Junk produced for many of the licensing deals Nintendo jumped into in the late 80s and early 90s. That could play a role in their relectance. Despite large conglomerations that seems to do everything, the notion of practicing and doing once thing very well is also still has cultural weight and explains much of Nintendo's efforts such as not including media center functionality in their systems.

 

[Cesar R M]

I think it was a one-two punch of the Mario movie and the Phillips CD-I games that ended that major Mario/Zelda licensing period.

And you can't really blame them on that matter. I know I'd be hesitant to let outside groups play with my characters if they gave me something like this.

Hmm.. You should have used the video of that horrible Zelda game.

 

[AEfx]

Who said anything about going around without ever doing rides? What sets Disney's rides apart is their connection to that larger experience. Despite what people talk about, if good rides and/or characters were enough more parks would be more successful.

I didn't say anyone said that; I quoted to and was responding to your post saying that "Focus on meaning and message is more important than rides."

I'm arguing that is not the case. It's a nice icing, but the cake is the rides and that's what brings folks to the parks.

Over the last five years, Orlando has gained several million new yearly theme park guests. Yet, in the same time period where all these new folks are coming to the area, attendance is flat at every Disney park except for MK, which has seen a slight bump. I think you'll find the reason for that being that folks are coming to visit non-Disney theme parks, and if they spend a day or two at WDW, that's the most likely park that gets picked.

Why are they coming now, and they didn't come for AK? A park which pretty much fits the theme/mission analysis as well as any Disney park (including DisneySeas). Lack of attractions.

Disney has coasted as long as they have because, even in spite of the fact they gave up on progress, they still have PotC, they still had Splash Mountain, etc. - no other theme parks can even approach those rides, until now when you have a new competitor in Universal. That's why WDW was the top of it's game - it's attractions were unmatched, and those classics still really are though Universal is really giving them the run for it, not because of really nebulous connections that are completely out of the minds of most guests.

I really do get the finer points, the intangibles - if I didn't, I wouldn't be discussing WDW on a message board - but I just don't think they are the most important thing to anyone aside from long-time fans. I think the folks that are choosing a vacation on those merits are going to places like Washington, DC or Williamsburg, VA - not a theme park vacation. No one makes rides like Disney did, and even the best Knott's-style dark ride still can't hold a candle to any of the classics.

To bring it back to the original reason the topic came up - If they end up doing a quality job on DHS and put in some amazing Star Wars attractions, an amazing Cars attraction, and start to compete again as making unquestionably world-class quality attractions - it's not going to matter what "theme" they settle on. The one they have is good enough - the "Hollywood that always is and never was" is stretched a bit with things like RnR, but it's also about as specific as "optimistic futurism".

I'm hoping for something simple, like "Disney Adventure Park", but I doubt they will go with that as IOA has the "adventure" part, not likely - but it really would accurately describe what we are getting, and eliminate any of these concerns and they can just focus on making quality rides and attractions to bring folks in and impress the heck out of 'em.

There is nothing esoteric or academic about the connection between Future World and World Showcase. Greater global interaction, understanding and cooperation has long been a common element of optimistic futurism.

I guess not, if one is either a professor, or a Disney history fan, LOL.

If you ask the average Epcot guest what "optimistic futurism" is, they'd probably say "That I can get on Soarin' without waiting 90 minutes".

Those are very abstract concepts. That's my point. Folks don't dump $3-5K on a vacation at WDW based on those kinds of intellectual analysis of theme parks. I do understand what you are getting at in terms of a greater importance, but I think in a pie chart of what guests look for - "unifying theme" is one of the smaller, child-sized slices.

 

[AEfx]

There was also a lot of Junk produced for many of the licensing deals Nintendo jumped into in the late 80s and early 90s. That could play a role in their relectance. Despite large conglomerations that seems to do everything, the notion of practicing and doing once thing very well is also still has cultural weight and explains much of Nintendo's efforts such as not including media center functionality in their systems.

It's funny, the one thing they are going into lately is - toys. There have always been little things here and there - I remember collecting Nintendo PVC's as far back as the late 80's, back when stores sold loose PVC figures in bins, and Happy Meal toys, and the like. But it was always small batches and such, nothing extensive. Then they started into plushes, etc

But lately, man, Toys R Us (I almost said TRU, then remembered I'm on the Disney board and that's not a Disney acronym LOL) almost has an entire aisle full of Nintendo stuff. Started out with some of the Mario Kart racing sets (they looked wicked cool, but since I don't even have my monorail set up, I didn't bite) and now several different figure lines and building sets from various manufacturers, as well as some high-end statue collectables are coming out with frequency.

They don't seem to be interested in theme parks, but between all the new toys - not to mention Amibo, which is going to tie into pretty much every new first party title (Mario, Zelda, etc.) - and Nintendo really wants into the toy business.

 

[FigmentJedi]

Hmm.. You should have used the video of that horrible Zelda game.

That video's features all three of the CDI Nintendo games with the Zelda cutscenes going first.

 

[AEfx]

I think it was a one-two punch of the Mario movie and the Phillips CD-I games that ended that major Mario/Zelda licensing period.

It's a shame, because while the Mario ones were horrible, the Zelda ones actually weren't that bad. Well, one of them was, LOL. The one that wasn't widely released wasn't bad. The Mario ones were embarrassing, to put it kindly.

But yes, I agree - that's when they learned their lesson that other folks aren't going to do justice to their IP's. Really, as far as blue chip characters go, the only one that beats them is Disney in terms of recognition - and I'm pretty sure some years back there Mario beat out Mickey in some of those those "Q" surveys that measure what percentage of folks recognize certain characters and people.

It's why Nintendo keeps shaking it's head with everyone suggesting that they move on to iOS/Android devices - their answer is simple, and it's a very Disney answer (old Disney) - you simply couldn't replicate the precision and nuances of their games except on a platform designed around it - especially on a touch interface. Mario games, for example, can be thematically repetitive at times, but you play them for the exquisite physics and control that no one has ever been able to replicate that perfectly.

I think that's same reason why Disney has been able to eek along the past decade or so in spite of the decline in quality and the lack of significant investment in attractions. They had been the unquestioned kings of quality and detail - one would have had to be clinically insane to think or even suggest otherwise. Now...not so much. But, since they were so far ahead of the game, it's just catching up to them. The rest of the world has started to catch up - when you have themed restaurants in every major city, and even places like Casino's (Mohegan Sun in CT has better rock work than 7DMT) getting into the game, and now that Universal is really answering the call for new and exciting attractions - they can't live on their old coattails forever.

 

[FigmentJedi]

It's funny, the one thing they are going into lately is - toys. There have always been little things here and there - I remember collecting Nintendo PVC's as far back as the late 80's, back when stores sold loose PVC figures in bins, and Happy Meal toys, and the like. But it was always small batches and such, nothing extensive. Then they started into plushes, etc

But lately, man, Toys R Us (I almost said TRU, then remembered I'm on the Disney board and that's not a Disney acronym LOL) almost has an entire aisle full of Nintendo stuff. Started out with some of the Mario Kart racing sets (they looked wicked cool, but since I don't even have my monorail set up, I didn't bite) and now several different figure lines and building sets from various manufacturers, as well as some high-end statue collectables are coming out with frequency.

They don't seem to be interested in theme parks, but between all the new toys - not to mention Amibo, which is going to tie into pretty much every new first party title (Mario, Zelda, etc.) - and Nintendo really wants into the toy business.

Which is natural because Nintendo basically was doing toys in the 60s and 70s, like the Ultrahand or their own take on Legos.

They're also dabbling with in-house animation projects. Miyamoto's been working on Pikmin shorts recently.

 

[AEfx]

Which is natural because Nintendo basically was doing toys in the 60s and 70s, like the Ultrahand or their own take on Legos.

Interesting. I am terrible on pre-video game Nintendo history. There is a really good book out there called Super Mario: How Nintendo Conquered America (a good companion to Console Wars) but they mostly talk about the original playing card history and then skip ahead to the Donkey Kong era.

That Ultrahand thing - is that related to the Wii game you can get from Club Nintendo? Those guys are so clever sometimes, LOL.

 

[AEfx]

They're also dabbling with in-house animation projects. Miyamoto's been working on Pikmin shorts recently.

And I think that's an extension of the CD-i lesson you mentioned. Basically, they don't really trust anyone with their IP's. That's why I think everyone involved was surprised about their inclusion in WIR, and that they were pleased enough to want to ante up more characters for cameos in the sequel.

But when it comes to actual film properties, I think it's less about the genre - like the theme park thing - as the Japanese obviously hold film in very high regard as well - and more for what you've just pointed out - that they don't want to give up the control a deal with a major studio, even Disney, would cost them - and they just haven't been interested in starting their own film business so far to do it themselves.

I'll have to check out their shorts - I'm not terribly familiar with Pikmin, but I'd be interested to see what they come up with.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Is this conversation about that guy who got his lens destroyed during a college football match and then blamed the photographer for "hurting" the player?

No, an NFL photographer was run into and not seriously hurt during the New England game tonight. I know the story you're talking about and the photographer put his camera in a bad spot.

Me? ive nearly gotten popped, moreso on the baseline of basketball games where I'm 3-4 feet from the players versus 15-20 in football. More reaction time to duck, move, etc., in football.

Now watch me get popped next game.... lol

 

[PhotoDave219]

It's funny, the one thing they are going into lately is - toys. There have always been little things here and there - I remember collecting Nintendo PVC's as far back as the late 80's, back when stores sold loose PVC figures in bins, and Happy Meal toys, and the like. But it was always small batches and such, nothing extensive. Then they started into plushes, etc

But lately, man, Toys R Us (I almost said TRU, then remembered I'm on the Disney board and that's not a Disney acronym LOL) almost has an entire aisle full of Nintendo stuff. Started out with some of the Mario Kart racing sets (they looked wicked cool, but since I don't even have my monorail set up, I didn't bite) and now several different figure lines and building sets from various manufacturers, as well as some high-end statue collectables are coming out with frequency.

They don't seem to be interested in theme parks, but between all the new toys - not to mention Amibo, which is going to tie into pretty much every new first party title (Mario, Zelda, etc.) - and Nintendo really wants into the toy business.

I prefer Toys R Me.





(College humor skit)

 

[FigmentJedi]

Interesting. I am terrible on pre-video game Nintendo history. There is a really good book out there called Super Mario: How Nintendo Conquered America (a good companion to Console Wars) but they mostly talk about the original playing card history and then skip ahead to the Donkey Kong era.

That Ultrahand thing - is that related to the Wii game you can get from Club Nintendo? Those guys are so clever sometimes, LOL.

There's a pretty good blog on the subject right here

http://blog.beforemario.com/

 

[BrerJon]

The thoughts of mission statements or grand statements really isn't a motivating factor for them. When you really get down to it, those sorts of things can influence folks into being long-term fans, again, like you'd see here - which is why folks assign them such importance - but I just don't think that is what turns those turnstiles in general.

I mostly agree, but if really done right though it can influence future turnstile turns (or Mickey head scans). How many people originally went to EPCOT Center out of curiousity about Disney's new science park, but left inspired, energised and mind-blown about the future and the world? I know I did, and I'm pretty sure thousands of others did, and that directly led to years of repeat visits, due to the feeling that Disney had something more than your average park, something intangible and hard to describe to those who had never been.