The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[Phil12]

For the few that can afford them. And to hell with the thousands of others who can't.

Do you think these bungalows will cost more per point than the Grand Floridian and Bay Lake Tower? I haven't seen any prices yet. However, if they turn out to be significantly higher than the Grand Floridian and Bay Lake Tower I would think some buyers will be able to pick up points at the bungalows on resale after a few years for a discount. It really depends upon what the market will support.

I guess part of the reason why these were built is to help suppress the non resort guests using the beach as a viewing spot for the MK fireworks displays.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do you think these bungalows will cost more per point than the Grand Floridian and Bay Lake Tower? I haven't seen any prices yet. However, if they turn out to be significantly higher than the Grand Floridian and Bay Lake Tower I would think some buyers will be able to pick up points at the bungalows on resale after a few years for a discount. It really depends upon what the market will support.

I guess part of the reason why these were built is to help suppress the non resort guests using the beach as a viewing spot for the MK fireworks displays.

The same DVC points will be used at both the bungalows and the studio rooms at the Poly. In other words you won't have to buy points specific for the bungalows. They will use just regular DVC points so anyone with points can in theory trade in for a bungalow at 7 months if they are available. It is possible they could sell some fixed week contracts similar to VGF. No clue on the price per point, but my best guess is it will start around the $160 per point range. They typically start the price a little lower when sales kick off then ramp them up in a month or 2 to encourage buyers to buy before the price increase. I think it may take a little while for the resale price to drop. VGF is holding pretty steady right now. It took several years and a few big price increases before BLT resale became a good bargain.

From what I've read the points for the bungalows will be equivalent to the 3 bedroom grand villas at BLT or VGF that sleep 12 but the bungalows will only have 2 bedrooms and sleep 9. The points needed for 1 night will be around the same as the points needed to rent a studio room for a whole week. I'm thinking something over 100 points a night during more popular times. In point rental terms (assuming you rent at $14 per point) that puts the room rate at $1,400+!!!!!! That means cash rack rates could be as high as $2,000 per night

Edit: these are just my guesses on price. Nothing has been released yet.

 

[Phil12]

The same DVC points will be used at both the bungalows and the studio rooms at the Poly. In other words you won't have to buy points specific for the bungalows. They will use just regular DVC points so anyone with points can in theory trade in for a bungalow at 7 months if they are available. It is possible they could sell some fixed week contracts similar to VGF. No clue on the price per point, but my best guess is it will start around the $160 per point range. They typically start the price a little lower when sales kick off then ramp them up in a month or 2 to encourage buyers to buy before the price increase. I think it may take a little while for the resale price to drop. VGF is holding pretty steady right now. It took several years and a few big price increases before BLT resale became a good bargain.

From what I've read the points for the bungalows will be equivalent to the 3 bedroom grand villas at BLT or VGF that sleep 12 but the bungalows will only have 2 bedrooms and sleep 9. The points needed for 1 night will be around the same as the points needed to rent a studio room for a whole week. I'm thinking something over 100 points a night during more popular times. In point rental terms (assuming you rent at $14 per point) that puts the room rate at $1,400+!!!!!! That means cash rack rates could be as high as $2,000 per night

Edit: these are just my guesses on price. Nothing has been released yet.

Thank you for that information. Since they sleep nine persons the point rental expense per night according to your estimate would be about $156 per person. That might appeal to large families or two families that desire to share. Years ago our family and friends regularly stayed in the cabins at Fort Wilderness because they would accommodate up to six people per cabin. Also with the family suites at some of the value resorts now it would seem that WDW has found that large family accommodations are in demand.

 

[GoofGoof]

Thank you for that information. Since they sleep nine persons the point rental expense per night according to your estimate would be about $156 per person. That might appeal to large families or two families that desire to share. Years ago our family and friends regularly stayed in the cabins at Fort Wilderness because they would accommodate up to six people per cabin. Also with the family suites at some of the value resorts now it would seem that WDW has found that large family accommodations are in demand.

Even sleeping 9 the rooms are likely to be still pricey even for DVC standards. The 2 bedroom villa at BLT goes for an average of about 50 points a night. At the $14 rental price that's about $700 a night or half what the rumored points will be for a Poly bungalow. You don't get a private plunge pool at BLT, but I don't think it's worth double the price.

 

[AEfx]

You don't get a private plunge pool at BLT, but I don't think it's worth double the price.

I'm sorry I'm just slow - like I said, I was aware of this but I didn't pay a ton of attention - these have a pool?

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm sorry I'm just slow - like I said, I was aware of this but I didn't pay a ton of attention - these have a pool?

I think they have a small, private pool on the deck outside of each bungalow. Not confirmed officially anywhere, but I think there were pictures of one being installed somewhere.

Edit: here is the picture:
http://dvcnews.com/index.php/resorts/polynesian/2663-private-pools-for-poly-bungalows

This was apparently confirmed by tikiman so it's almost a lock to be true.

 

[Cesar R M]

That's OK - if I wanted "likes" I'd go to ChitChat!
It really is depressing to see in person, and like i said, the inside of the Ceremonial House is equally depressing.

let it gooooooo....

 

[Cesar R M]

They look like Pizza Huts.

I bet pizza is not included in the rent.

 

[marni1971]

I have to say, in ways it's a clever idea -

Oh it's clever. They would have looked great in Bay Lake.

 

[ford91exploder]

The same DVC points will be used at both the bungalows and the studio rooms at the Poly. In other words you won't have to buy points specific for the bungalows. They will use just regular DVC points so anyone with points can in theory trade in for a bungalow at 7 months if they are available. It is possible they could sell some fixed week contracts similar to VGF. No clue on the price per point, but my best guess is it will start around the $160 per point range. They typically start the price a little lower when sales kick off then ramp them up in a month or 2 to encourage buyers to buy before the price increase. I think it may take a little while for the resale price to drop. VGF is holding pretty steady right now. It took several years and a few big price increases before BLT resale became a good bargain.

From what I've read the points for the bungalows will be equivalent to the 3 bedroom grand villas at BLT or VGF that sleep 12 but the bungalows will only have 2 bedrooms and sleep 9. The points needed for 1 night will be around the same as the points needed to rent a studio room for a whole week. I'm thinking something over 100 points a night during more popular times. In point rental terms (assuming you rent at $14 per point) that puts the room rate at $1,400+!!!!!! That means cash rack rates could be as high as $2,000 per night

Edit: these are just my guesses on price. Nothing has been released yet.

Would not surprise me.

 

[ford91exploder]

Oh it's clever. They would have looked great in Bay Lake.

I'm assuming you meant at the bottom of said lake...

 

[ParentsOf4]

I'm assuming you meant at the bottom of said lake...

I happen to take family and friends jet skiing on Bay Lake and Seven Seas Lagoon during our last WDW trip. (It was fun!). While motoring around, it occurred to me that much of Bay Lake felt underdeveloped (or abandoned). (I guess I'm use to Crescent Lake.)

To @marni1971's point, Bay Lake is not a bad location to plop a DVC with over-the-water deluxe suites. Certainly a lot less of an eyesore then dropping them in front of the Polynesian.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

I think that one of the main reasons that they don't mind occasional point renters, is that a certain percentage (even if only 10%) of renters may become buyers at a certain point.

Personally, if I feel like I'm getting a deal on the hotel room, I may buy more merchandise, or have more TS meals. So, there's that.

Speaking of DVC, did I mention what an absolute clusterbomb the Poly rooms on sticks actually look? Totally destroying a view and a vista - one of WDWS original and best - probably forever for a privileged few is surely one of the biggest mistakes of recent times. It is a travesty. Thankfully we chose not to see inside of the resort.

This makes me feel ill.

View attachment 69322

It's Pizza Hut. A bunch of little Pizza Huts on the murky water. Terrible. Short sighted, and terrible.

(Pardon, I'm three pages behind, I wanted to respond to these comments and my "quote" button isn't working since updating my iOS)

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

I happen to take family and friends jet skiing on Bay Lake and Seven Seas Lagoon during our last WDW trip. (It was fun!). While motoring around, it occurred to me that much of Bay Lake felt underdeveloped (or abandoned). (I guess I'm use to Crescent Lake.)

View attachment 69427

To @marni1971's point, Bay Lake is not a bad location to plop a DVC with over-the-water deluxe suites. Certainly a lot less of an eyesore then dropping them in front of the Polynesian.

View attachment 69428

It..just looks so imposing and fake.

The polynesian has a weathered, rustic look to it...I only hope that's matched with these expensive little pizza huts.

Didn't someone...probably Spirit... Mention on-the-water DVC for wilderness lodge as well? Teepee style buildings or am I not remembering it correctly?


And lovely pics, Po4. Kinda personal question...since your kids are getting older, how do they/your family feel about disney now? From what I understand you guys stay on property (DVC?) and travel around. Just curious!

 

[ParentsOf4]

But it begs the question, why does Disney continue to build them? Surely they realize by now they're killing their own business?

Sorry to reply to your post over here but I'm trying to respect the topic of the other thread ("FP+ only Toy Story Midway Mania").

@WDW1974 's original post on this thread ("The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)") notes that Disney's plans are to continue the trend in recent years of converting unused hotel rooms into DVC. Disney is not building DVC so much as converting excess hotel inventory into timeshares.

Early in its history, DVC's goal was to steal business away from offsite timeshares. DVC's first two resorts, Old Key West (OKW) and Boardwalk Villas (BWV), were designed to appeal to those already looking to buy timeshares and who were not spending their lodging dollars at WDW. Both resorts opened with DVC rooms. Both resorts were attempts to capture vacation dollars Disney was losing to offsite rivals.

DVC began to cannibalize its own Deluxe Resort business with the opening of the Villas at Wilderness Lodge (VWL) in 2000. This expansion added timeshare rooms to an existing hotel. The market for those rooms overlapped the market for Deluxe Resort rooms. However, the numbers were small (136 rooms) so its effect was negligible.

The problem slightly worsened with the opening of Beach Club Villas (BCV) in 2002. The Yacht & Beach Club (Y&BC) was (and still is) a popular resort. Expanding DVC there began to pull guests away from other Deluxe Resorts. Again though, the numbers were small (208 rooms).

DVC jumped the shark with the rapid expansion of Saratoga Springs Resort (SSR) in 2004, Animal Kingdom Villas (AKV) in 2007, and Bay Lake Towers (BLT) in 2009. Combined, these 3 resorts more than doubled the number DVC rooms. Rather than remaining exclusive (in 2003, DVC represented only 5% of total WDW room inventory), DVC was turned into timeshares for the masses.

With the rapid expansion of these 3 resorts, DVC kiosks began to pop up everywhere, targeting all sorts of guests, often those already spending big bucks to stay onsite. DVC began to compete directly with WDW's hotels.

It was after the opening of AKV that WDW's hotel occupancy began to decline, a decline that continued as Disney raised hotel rack rates in an effort to justify the 'cost savings' of DVC. (The same way that we've seen the price of food at WDW increase in order to justify the price of the Disney Dining Plan.)

As a result of these higher prices and expanded DVC inventory, WDW no longer is able to fill its hotel rooms. As recently as 2008, WDW's hotel occupancy was at 90%. Today, WDW has over 5000 empty hotel rooms most nights.

WDW is seeing the adverse effect of DVC, both in terms of lower occupancy rates at the Deluxe Resorts as well as in the need to offer 20-30% discounts for the majority of the year. (It wasn't that long ago that WDW never offered discounts.)

Going forward, the damage is done. WDW is losing hotel revenue because of DVC.

Converting mostly empty hotel rooms to DVC is a way to recapture some of that lost revenue. Lowering hotel inventory through conversion allows Disney to continue to charge high prices for its remaining inventory.

Unfortunately, Disney's plan signals an unwillingness to acknowledge that its hotel prices have reached ridiculous levels.

Rather than admit that WDW's hotels are grossly overpriced for what they are, Disney instead is looking to convert those rooms into timeshares.

It's sad to see a company built on growth through innovation and investment instead concentrate on petty-minded optimization.

Over 21 years as CEO, Michael Eisner grew the Parks & Resorts (P&R) business by an average of almost 11% annually. Under Iger, that growth has slowed to under 6%.

Under Iger, the focus has shifted from growth to squeezing pennies out of P&R 'guests'.

 

[Nubs70]

Speaking of squeezing pennies,

Looks like Prince Allaweed coughed up the money to keep 10% of EuroDisney.

 

[MarkTwain]

Sorry to reply to your post over here but I'm trying to respect the topic of the other thread ("FP+ only Toy Story Midway Mania").

@WDW1974 's original post on this thread ("The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)") notes that Disney's plans are to continue the trend in recent years of converting unused hotel rooms into DVC. Disney is not building DVC so much as converting excess hotel inventory into timeshares.

Early in its history, DVC's goal was to steal business away from offsite timeshares. DVC's first two resorts, Old Key West (OKW) and Boardwalk Villas (BWV), were designed to appeal to those already looking to buy timeshares and who were not spending their lodging dollars at WDW. Both resorts opened with DVC rooms. Both resorts were attempts to capture vacation dollars Disney was losing to offsite rivals.

DVC began to cannibalize its own Deluxe Resort business with the opening of the Villas at Wilderness Lodge (VWL) in 2000. This expansion added timeshare rooms to an existing hotel. The market for those rooms overlapped the market for Deluxe Resort rooms. However, the numbers were small (136 rooms) so its effect was negligible.

The problem slightly worsened with the opening of Beach Club Villas (BCV) in 2002. The Yacht & Beach Club (Y&BC) was (and still is) a popular resort. Expanding DVC there began to pull guests away from other Deluxe Resorts. Again though, the numbers were small (208 rooms).

DVC jumped the shark with the rapid expansion of Saratoga Springs Resort (SSR) in 2004, Animal Kingdom Villas (AKV) in 2007, and Bay Lake Towers (BLT) in 2009. Combined, these 3 resorts more than doubled the number DVC rooms. Rather than remaining exclusive (in 2003, DVC represented only 5% of total WDW room inventory), DVC was turned into timeshares for the masses.

With the rapid expansion of these 3 resorts, DVC kiosks began to pop up everywhere, targeting all sorts of guests, often those already spending big bucks to stay onsite. DVC began to compete directly with WDW's hotels.

It was after the opening of AKV that WDW's hotel occupancy began to decline, a decline that continued as Disney raised hotel rack rates in an effort to justify the 'cost savings' of DVC. (The same way that we've seen the price of food at WDW increase in order to justify the price of the Disney Dining Plan.)

As a result of these higher prices and expanded DVC inventory, WDW no longer is able to fill its hotel rooms. As recently as 2008, WDW's hotel occupancy was at 90%. Today, WDW has over 5000 empty hotel rooms most nights.

WDW is seeing the adverse effect of DVC, both in terms of lower occupancy rates at the Deluxe Resorts as well as in the need to offer 20-30% discounts for the majority of the year. (It wasn't that long ago that WDW never offered discounts.)

Going forward, the damage is done. WDW is losing hotel revenue because of DVC.

Converting mostly empty hotel rooms to DVC is a way to recapture some of that lost revenue. Lowering hotel inventory through conversion allows Disney to continue to charge high prices for its remaining inventory.

Unfortunately, Disney's plan signals an unwillingness to acknowledge that its hotel prices have reached ridiculous levels.

Rather than admit that WDW's hotels are grossly overpriced for what they are, Disney instead is looking to convert those rooms into timeshares.

It's sad to see a company built on growth through innovation and investment instead concentrate on petty-minded optimization.

Over 21 years as CEO, Michael Eisner grew the Parks & Resorts (P&R) business by an average of almost 11% annually. Under Iger, that growth has slowed to under 6%.

Under Iger, the focus has shifted from growth to squeezing pennies out of P&R 'guests'.

Thanks for the information!

Still seems to me like Disney is just perpetuating the problem with their "solution." People that might have stayed a few nights at the Wilderness Lodge, and without owning a villa there, will now have more of an opportunity to not be a hotel guest there in the future by buying Disney's new villas.

 

[tirian]

Last year, part of Disney's solution was to drastically cut back the number of discounted rooms available to CMs. Since then, it has become almost impossible for a CM to book a hotel room across Disney property. Disney would rather leave those rooms empty than get a fair price for them.

Adding insult to injury, the company has blocked Main Gate passes to the Magic Kingdom almost every weekend, most of the summer, and most of the holiday season. They first claimed it was because FLE would increase attendance. When that didn't happen, Disney lifted the Main Gate blackouts for the remaining weeks.

But the blackouts helped cut discounts, and someone realized they could manipulate numbers regardless of actual crowd levels. Now the blackouts are randomly enforced and lifted with little warning on the Hub; CM families might book a vacation only to discover the MK has been blocked for various operational reasons (not crowds) a few days before the vacation begins.

It's all about cutting costs and showing improved numbers by not offering too many discounts. This strategy is quite recent; before this, Main Gates were only blocked for major holidays and the two weeks around Christmas, and all empty hotel rooms were up for grabs.

The shell games extend to regular Guests, too. Many of Disney's resorts now show "sold out" online when, in fact, blocks of rooms are simply closed. I have access to numbers, but can't post them here. Not that it matters; @ParentsOf4 is doing a great job.

Sorry to reply to your post over here but I'm trying to respect the topic of the other thread ("FP+ only Toy Story Midway Mania").

@WDW1974 's original post on this thread ("The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)") notes that Disney's plans are to continue the trend in recent years of converting unused hotel rooms into DVC. Disney is not building DVC so much as converting excess hotel inventory into timeshares.

Early in its history, DVC's goal was to steal business away from offsite timeshares. DVC's first two resorts, Old Key West (OKW) and Boardwalk Villas (BWV), were designed to appeal to those already looking to buy timeshares and who were not spending their lodging dollars at WDW. Both resorts opened with DVC rooms. Both resorts were attempts to capture vacation dollars Disney was losing to offsite rivals.

DVC began to cannibalize its own Deluxe Resort business with the opening of the Villas at Wilderness Lodge (VWL) in 2000. This expansion added timeshare rooms to an existing hotel. The market for those rooms overlapped the market for Deluxe Resort rooms. However, the numbers were small (136 rooms) so its effect was negligible.

The problem slightly worsened with the opening of Beach Club Villas (BCV) in 2002. The Yacht & Beach Club (Y&BC) was (and still is) a popular resort. Expanding DVC there began to pull guests away from other Deluxe Resorts. Again though, the numbers were small (208 rooms).

DVC jumped the shark with the rapid expansion of Saratoga Springs Resort (SSR) in 2004, Animal Kingdom Villas (AKV) in 2007, and Bay Lake Towers (BLT) in 2009. Combined, these 3 resorts more than doubled the number DVC rooms. Rather than remaining exclusive (in 2003, DVC represented only 5% of total WDW room inventory), DVC was turned into timeshares for the masses.

With the rapid expansion of these 3 resorts, DVC kiosks began to pop up everywhere, targeting all sorts of guests, often those already spending big bucks to stay onsite. DVC began to compete directly with WDW's hotels.

It was after the opening of AKV that WDW's hotel occupancy began to decline, a decline that continued as Disney raised hotel rack rates in an effort to justify the 'cost savings' of DVC. (The same way that we've seen the price of food at WDW increase in order to justify the price of the Disney Dining Plan.)

As a result of these higher prices and expanded DVC inventory, WDW no longer is able to fill its hotel rooms. As recently as 2008, WDW's hotel occupancy was at 90%. Today, WDW has over 5000 empty hotel rooms most nights.

WDW is seeing the adverse effect of DVC, both in terms of lower occupancy rates at the Deluxe Resorts as well as in the need to offer 20-30% discounts for the majority of the year. (It wasn't that long ago that WDW never offered discounts.)

Going forward, the damage is done. WDW is losing hotel revenue because of DVC.

Converting mostly empty hotel rooms to DVC is a way to recapture some of that lost revenue. Lowering hotel inventory through conversion allows Disney to continue to charge high prices for its remaining inventory.

Unfortunately, Disney's plan signals an unwillingness to acknowledge that its hotel prices have reached ridiculous levels.

Rather than admit that WDW's hotels are grossly overpriced for what they are, Disney instead is looking to convert those rooms into timeshares.

It's sad to see a company built on growth through innovation and investment instead concentrate on petty-minded optimization.

Over 21 years as CEO, Michael Eisner grew the Parks & Resorts (P&R) business by an average of almost 11% annually. Under Iger, that growth has slowed to under 6%.

Under Iger, the focus has shifted from growth to squeezing pennies out of P&R 'guests'.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

Thanks for the information!

Still seems to me like Disney is just perpetuating the problem with their "solution." People that might have stayed a few nights at the Wilderness Lodge, and without owning a villa there, will now have more of an opportunity to not be a hotel guest there in the future by buying Disney's new villas.

...if you're a brand new, never been there before, but planning a vacation for your made up family including two kids (boy,5, girl, 6) and yourself and DS (dear spouse) you are going to look strictly at prices first.

Most expensive hotel (closest to magic kingdom) nearly $600 a night. A. Night.

Least expensive hotel room nearly $100 a night (I'm being generous here).

The perks of staying onsite regardless of hotel room:

Disney transportation available.
Park to room delivery of that crap your made up family just has to have right now and you don't feel like carrying.
Fast pass plus access, same, regardless of expensive or cheap hotel. (And this is where I'll leave it open for @ParentsOf4 to explain the lost opportunity of roping more folks into more expensive hotel rooms by offering more fast passes per day for the moderate and deluxe resorts)

That said, the offsite hotels can vary from (again, generous) $40-400, depending on amenities and location and, well, company ownership.

Money talks...If you break a vacation down to the basics, a week on property is much more expensive than a week offsite.

If said made up family vacation planner doesn't do his homework, and opts for the offsite, $40 a night hotel room, and misses out on fast pass plus reservations made ahead of time, securing the best picks available, best show, fireworks spots, etc. do you think he's likely to be overall pleased with his vacation experience? More importantly, do you think he's likely to return, after having to use standby for a lot more rides than they were planning on?

What if they didn't think planning was necessary? What if they don't LIKE to plan out their vacations?

Back to your statement, if given the choice of off site hotel room for $100 a night versus $400 a night at the wilderness lodge, what would the guest most likely choose?

By disney continuing to raise its prices, limit its available hotel space, offer more as short sighted exclusive rentals (DVC) they are not only shooting themselves in the foot, they're instagramming it and bragging on Twitter about the lack of foot and wait who shot off that gun?

Eventually, the same guests who have been going and over paying and watching prices soar higher and higher with a severe lack of new attractions, upkeep and ...shows to watch, things to do, will travel elsewhere in search of what used to make the place so special.

Unfortunately for disney, they haven't taken...and still are not taking their competitors up the street seriously and it will come back to bite them hard. While they continue to make their hotel rooms exclusive buy -ins (DVC) and raise the price on the rest while the quality lacks behind, at the same time their competitors are building brand new resorts and at a cheaper price (with equal and better amenities than disneys) while offering new experiences, rides, food venues, etc...it's only a matter of time before a mass exodus happens.

Disney will always be that "once in a lifetime" trip for little tommy who wants to slay dragons and little Susie who thinks she is a princess but once they are out of the target age range, what happens then? DVC ropes parents into paying $$$$$$$$ for those rooms, but now they're bored of the parks and are headed elsewhere while using that once-expensive, now fairly cheap DVC hotel room as a home base.

Comcast is laughing all the way to the bank.

(Please pardon spelling errors and straight up wrong words, me and ios 8.0.2 are not getting along very well)

 

[ford91exploder]

Last year, part of Disney's solution was to drastically cut back the number of discounted rooms available to CMs. Since then, it has become almost impossible for a CM to book a hotel room across Disney property. Disney would rather leave those rooms empty than get a fair price for them.

Adding insult to injury, the company has blocked Main Gate passes to the Magic Kingdom almost every weekend, most of the summer, and most of the holiday season. They first claimed it was because FLE would increase attendance. When that didn't happen, Disney lifted the Main Gate blackouts for the remaining weeks.

But the blackouts helped cut discounts, and someone realized they could manipulate numbers regardless of actual crowd levels. Now the blackouts are randomly enforced and lifted with little warning on the Hub; CM families might book a vacation only to discover the MK has been blocked for various operational reasons (not crowds) a few days before the vacation begins.

It's all about cutting costs and showing improved numbers by not offering too many discounts. This strategy is quite recent; before this, Main Gates were only blocked for major holidays and the two weeks around Christmas, and all empty hotel rooms were up for grabs.

The shell games extend to regular Guests, too. Many of Disney's resorts now show "sold out" online when, in fact, blocks of rooms are simply closed. I have access to numbers, but can't post them here. Not that it matters; @ParentsOf4 is doing a great job.

Thanks @tirian for confirming the shell games with rooms to boost occupancy numbers, most real hotel companies prefer to have filled rooms. But Disney wants to create the illusion that the hotels are going gangbusters when it reality they are not I seem to recall that @WDW1974 has noted internal occupancy in the 50's for at least one of the deluxe hotels

But with DVC units in the 90s it does tend to skew the average higher. But short term DVC availability bas fallen drastically which makes me wonder whether Disney is playing the out of service game with DVC as well because the DVC docs only guarantee that you will have points placed in your account. NOT that accommodations will be available to reserve at any point in time.

Interestingly enough when DVC is 'sold out' rooms are frequently available for 'trade' with the $ 95 booking fee etc.

I'm just beyond disgusted these days.