Spirited Thoughts, News, Observations etc.

OK, hide the women and the children ... most importantly send the fanbois to bed with their plush and tell them to hide under the covers ... waaaay down under them because it's time for some Spirited thoughts, observations, news and anecdotes from a long weekend at The World Maintenance Forgot, yes WDW.

Where to start? With a conclusion? Or should I just work on down?

Should I start with the good ... things like seeing friends, having great weather, appreciating some things that the fan community tends to ignore and seeing EPCOT in its best colors?

Or ... do I focus on everything else? Because all going to WDW did for me this weekend was exceed my already amazingly low expectations for the state of WDW infrastructure and show quality (hey, they did exceed expectations, right?) and get me more excited for my future visits to DLP, possibly BGW, DL ... and, hopefully in the not too distant future, the Asian resorts again too.

Let's start with the basics. Freshness. If you had visited WDW in 2006 and hadn't returned in six years, you would find no appreciable new product in three of four parks.

You would find show quality that already had issues showing more issues than the typical fanboi in therapy. Well, that's if you can actually get to the MK because the crumbling monorail system has to be shut down all day from 11:30 a.m to 6 p.m. to do track work in the midst of one of the busiest times of the year ... imagine paying $500-700 a night for a room at the GF or Poly with monorail convenience touted (wonder what guest recovery they are doing there!) ... but let's assume you find your way there.

Let's start with the stuff the fan community is all lathered up for, namely the Storybook Circus mini-land expansion of Fantasyland. What did I think of it?

Not very much at all.

As usual, the hype was much greater than the product, which can't be viewed in a vacuum in a park that is crumbling and has no wow factor at all anymore.

In the day, Dumbo's primary colors and the red painted construction fences all around come off as garish ... befitting a circus, no doubt ... but Old Man Disney was no more a fan of circuses than he was of amusement parks and piers and the shady elements that all attracted. So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last. And it spins high enough to peek over construction walls and we all know how much that has become en vogue in O-Town of late.

It is a beautiful kinetic piece at night when the lighting is largely coming from the white and red bulbs that rim the queue (likely more of a makeshift deal now until the old Dumbo starts spinning across the way) and the LEDs embedded in the fountains underneath. But it is still Dumbo.

Sort of like the Barnstormer is still the Barnstormer, just missing much in the way of theming. Its prior incarnation had some whimsy, this doesn't. But they weren't getting rid of the only kiddie coaster in the park, so this was a cheap fix. Oh, and thanks to Bob Iger working with a chainsaw, you can now watch Disney buses and CMs driving to/fro work behind the MK as you walk up the queue if you peer left. I will never get what Phil and TDO have against trees, but they certainly do.

Nothing else is open beyond a much nicer train station that is still a train station ... and a set of new restrooms (someone needs to page Talking Head to this thread stat!) What I found amazing is that Disney was too cheap to actually connect these facilities to the park's main water supply, so they are using water from the immediate area that is untreated (or perhaps non-filtered/cleansed is more appropriate) so you have bizarre signs saying the water is 'non potable' (that means you can't drink it for those with limited vocabularies) over toilets. I know Disney's prices are crazy for a Coke, but over the toilet?!? ... Of course, the reason is they have colored the water blue because otherwise it would be a very icky color and folks would constantly be complaining that something isn't right.

Are the details nice? Sure. But they are very basic. I was much more excited by leaf patterns in the walkways around Old Man Island at Dixie Landings 20 years ago than I am by various hoof prints and 'peanuts' embedded in this area.

So much of this area also suffers from having both exposed coaster track (Disney fanbois seem to have issues with this at UNI) and show buildings just sticking out like a Duffy alone on a shelf full of Minnies.

If this is what Disney believes will raise the bar in O-Town ... well, no ... they don't. They understand what they have built and why. This is about capacity ... and NEXT GEN ... and keeping folks from being bored out of their minds by offering something 'new'.

It's in 'soft opening' now, but let's be blunt: they had to get this open and open now. They have so little capacity in this park due to 15 years of taking away and not adding. MK just isn't a very pleasant place right now at all with crowds and walls and lots of attractions that have seen far better days.

Again, it also seems that Ops and WDI simply can't get on the same page no matter what ... Dumbo opens with small plants where every little kid (and plenty of big ones) are going to stand, so the result is the foliage that was there Monday was trampled and mostly dead or dying by Friday. How they miss these basics is beyond me, although I think communication and common sense are both lacking.

Now, what else was 'new' (to me) at MK? Spin the Fanboi? Pin the Tail on Meg? Dole Whip tees (I mean, REALLY?!?!) ... or how about the latest way to hook OCD fanbois and why it is so important to NEXT GEN.

I'll see you all a little later ... like in the next post!

 

[lebeau]

I feel like this thread got derailed and buried. It belongs in the News and Rumors section. And I hate having to scroll through pages of drivel to get to the meat of what 74 is saying. Can we please get him his own Eddie Sotto-style thread in News and Rumors?

I'll start a petition if it will help.

 

[dreamscometrue]

You really have to have self-designed blinders on to not see what's wrong at WDW.

I have no issue with you reporting, as Lee stated you do, facts about what you see. If you see paint peeling, it's peeling. If you see an a.a. not moving, it is in fact, not working. I do, however, have an issue with the above quoted statement. You simply can not tell people that if they don't see what you, and some of the other veterans see, they must have blinders on.

Simple example. Two weeks ago I rode Small World a couple of times with a large group of friends. None of us noticed what you mentioned. As a matter of fact, when we got off the ride, we commented on how great the dolls looked and how the audio seemed to be improved from last time. We simply did not see any issues. It doesn't mean they aren't there, it means what I said...we didn't see them.

So, here's the thing. We are not park veterans like you, Lee, etc., but we're not newbies either. We visit about twice each year, spend an average of 9 days per trip, and visit the parks every day for many hours. If we don't notice any, or only very few, of the issues you and others point out, I think I can safely say that 99.999% of guests don't notice either.

I would say that you probably are just 'too' close, too 'experienced, 'too' familiar with the parks, and therefore represent a very, very, very small minority of park guests. I'm not saying that the issues you notice should not be addressed, I'm saying that they likely are only seen by a very, very few people. In absolute numbers, it might be dozens or hundreds, but in relative terms (17 million MK guests per year), this represents an incredibly small percentage of guests.

You might be thinking "How can they not see these issues?". I don't know. How do people NOT see stuff? I play in a band and expect perfect performances. When we have a crappy show, I can't understand how people didn't notice, but guess what; they never notice issues that are glaring to me.

Here's another one:

Wife: "How can you just walk by that and not pick it up?"
Husband: "I didn't even see it there."
Wife: "How could you not see it?"
Husband: "I don't know."

I actually see things a different way. I just got back from 9 days in the World and am perplexed about how you can not see all the amazingness that I see. I just don't get it. Main Street facades look great, Fantasmic! was the best I've seen it in a few years, HM looked great, The Tiki room looked amazing, Jungle Cruise was awesome, etc....How can you not see all the good? I just don't get it. I'm not being mean, I just can't relate at all. I see 99.9% awesome and 0.1% issues and can not believe that's not what others see.

Maybe we should write a book..."Lee is from Mars, and the vast, vast majority of annual WDW visitors are from Venus."

Cheers again.

 

[devoy1701]

I have no issue with you reporting, as Lee stated you do, facts about what you see. If you see paint peeling, it's peeling. If you see an a.a. not moving, it is in fact, not working. I do, however, have an issue with the above quoted statement. You simply can not tell people that if they don't see what you, and some of the other veterans see, they must have blinders on.

Simple example. Two weeks ago I rode Small World a couple of times with a large group of friends. None of us noticed what you mentioned. As a matter of fact, when we got off the ride, we commented on how great the dolls looked and how the audio seemed to be improved from last time. We simply did not see any issues. It doesn't mean they aren't there, it means what I said...we didn't see them.

So, here's the thing. We are not park veterans like you, Lee, etc., but we're not newbies either. We visit about twice each year, spend an average of 9 days per trip, and visit the parks every day for many hours. If we don't notice any, or only very few, of the issues you and others point out, I think I can safely say that 99.999% of guests don't notice either.

I would say that you probably are just 'too' close, too 'experienced, 'too' familiar with the parks, and therefore represent a very, very, very small minority of park guests. I'm not saying that the issues you notice should not be addressed, I'm saying that they likely are only seen by a very, very few people. In absolute numbers, it might be dozens or hundreds, but in relative terms (17 million MK guests per year), this represents an incredibly small percentage of guests.

You might be thinking "How can they not see these issues?". I don't know. How do people NOT see stuff? I play in a band and expect perfect performances. when we have a crappy show, I can't understand how people didn't notice, but guess what; they never notice issues that are glaring to me.

I actually see things a different way. I just got back from 9 days in the World and am perplexed about how you can not see all the amazingness that I see. I just don't get it. Main Street facades look great, Fantasmic! was the best I've seen it in a few years, HM looked great, The Tiki room looked amazing, Jungle Cruise was awesome, etc....How can you not see all the good? I just don't get it. I'm not being mean, I just can't relate at all. I see 99.9% awesome and 0.1% issues and can not believe that's not what others see.

Cheers again.

ahhh....but you miss a fundamental priciple of Walt Disney's ideas around theme park design...not stopping at only the things people will notice, but to go that extra step and put time and effort into the design and construction to include elements that the normal park guest will probably actually never realize is there. The fact that someone might notice or ask the question was case and point to why Disney always focused on the extra details. Just the fact that we (we being not your average park guest) notice them should be sign enough that there are issues that need to be addressed. But it's not just us that are noticing anymore...

 

[DznyRktekt]

If people could be less concerned with how '74 presents and be more concerned with the way TDO presents, we'd be in a better place. '74, you should run for office. I'd vote for ya via absentee ballot. :wave:

 

[dreamscometrue]

ahhh....but you miss a fundamental priciple of Walt Disney's ideas around theme park design...not stopping at only the things people will notice, but to go that extra step and put time and effort into the design and construction to include elements that the normal park guest will probably actually never realize is there. The fact that someone might notice or ask the question was case and point to why Disney always focused on the extra details. Just the fact that we (we being not your average park guest) notice them should be sign enough that there are issues that need to be addressed. But it's not just us that are noticing anymore...

I understand that. And I agree wholeheartedly it's those layers of hidden gems for the hard core fans that makes the Disney Parks special. I'm sure if Walt were around, he would walk through the parks and, based on what some of you have seen, would have a huge list of unacceptable issues to be fixed.

All I know is that we all experience the world through our own eyes, and what I see is mostly positive and little wrong. It's just what I see.

So, here's the question. What's changed at WDW since the 80's and 90's? No, I mean why have things changed? I've worked with leaders in my profession and honestly, nearly all are well intentioned. Some are much more competent than others, but few are mean spirited. Do you think TDO people truly don't care, don't have the financial resoruces, have their priorities wrong, etc.?

Do you think things will improve by the 50th anniversary, and why or why not?

 

[flynnibus]

ahhh....but you miss a fundamental priciple of Walt Disney's ideas around theme park design...not stopping at only the things people will notice, but to go that extra step and put time and effort into the design and construction to include elements that the normal park guest will probably actually never realize is there. The fact that someone might notice or ask the question was case and point to why Disney always focused on the extra details. Just the fact that we (we being not your average park guest) notice them should be sign enough that there are issues that need to be addressed. But it's not just us that are noticing anymore...

But there is an important distinction... details people won't NOTICE, but contribute to the whole without the people noticing.. and details for just being correct just for the sake of it.. artistic wise.. or for some, just straight up complusive.

The artist adding the detail for their own compulsions doesn't have to be recognized nor appreciated by the audience to work for the artist. That is very different than things added for a PURPOSE that does actually contribute to the experience being created.

Some of these are details that contribute.. some are just compulsions. When discussing Apple the other day, this is a distinction I think you missed. Apple fussing over the details isn't always about 'customer first'.. sometimes it's just about the creator/owner being for their own needs.. not the customer or to contribute to the experience.

Walt demonstrated both traits at times. He could be cheap, while other areas he demanded details that really didn't contribute at all. The middle road where Disney strives to be is.. adding the details that contribute both subconsciously and consciously.

 

[DougK]

All I know is this has been the most interesting thread in awhile. I hope the Spirit doesn't stay away roo long while he is travelling. Steve runs a great site here but without WDW1974, Lee, Martin and our other insiders it would not be nearly as fascinating as it is.

Spirit, I would love to see you name some names as far as who in Disney management is really culpable here for the terrible issues you always raise, such as poor maintenance, bad show, etc. Many posters on this board name Meg Crofton as villain number 1 but I think most of us know her about as well as we know the Queen of England, whereas you actually know these people (maybe not all of them personally but you obviously know people who know them).

So Spirit are you at liberty to call out a few management people and name some names? I would certainly understand if you cannot but I would like to know who the actual "bad people" are. I cannot believe they are ALL bad. For example I have a pretty positive impression of Tom Staggs, but again I don't actually know him. How about Iger, is he the problem?

I want to know who has to be replaced before things can get better at WDW. It would be nice for us to have some hope!

 

[devoy1701]

But there is an important distinction... details people won't NOTICE, but contribute to the whole without the people noticing.. and details for just being correct just for the sake of it.. artistic wise.. or for some, just straight up complusive.

The artist adding the detail for their own compulsions doesn't have to be recognized nor appreciated by the audience to work for the artist. That is very different than things added for a PURPOSE that does actually contribute to the experience being created.

Some of these are details that contribute.. some are just compulsions. When discussing Apple the other day, this is a distinction I think you missed. Apple fussing over the details isn't always about 'customer first'.. sometimes it's just about the creator/owner being for their own needs.. not the customer or to contribute to the experience.

Walt demonstrated both traits at times. He could be cheap, while other areas he demanded details that really didn't contribute at all. The middle road where Disney strives to be is.. adding the details that contribute both subconsciously and consciously.

I think we agree here (though I'm sure you'll let me know if we don't!). Whatever the reason for the detail that guests may or maynot notice, they are important to the overall execution and experience. Omitting them, while not detremental to the experience (read: ruins vacation), does indeed rob you of some of the richness and depth that Disney created in the past...whether you notice or not. And sometimes when those details are noticed (especially when you're trained to look for them) they end up sticking out like a sore thumb.

 

[marni1971]

This is not meant to be rude, but these are serious questions for '74, devoy1701, Scuttle, Lee, Martin and anyone else who we on these boards might call sometimes 'negative'.

1. Can you enjoy anything at, for example, MK...or do you just see the issues so that you can't enjoy sitting on Center Street with a Casey's hotdog, watching a parade, riding Space Mountain, etc.?

2. Do you think that your attitude, which I would term 'jaded', comes from just being too close to the running of WDW (like Lee) or just having been around for many, many years?

I saw my name mentioned here and there..

1. Yes. I still grin when I walk in a park. I love grabbing a coffee and people watching. I can enjoy a parade once a trip. But if during said pastimes I see lights not working still, or a float mis performing it stands out like a sore thumb. I still enjoy say Space Mountain, but more for the sheer awe inspiring scale of the 1975 design, not the current sorry state of a stuttering ride that was cruelly denied the refurb it so deserved.

Sadly, knowing what I know always comes to the front no matter. Mansion is fantastic. I love the graveyard even. But I can't help wishing they went even further and plussed the stretch rooms more, as planned.

Another great example is Dinosaur. It was short changed at birth. Riding last year, The AAs look great. As did the meteors, even with the little smoke puff impacts. The smoke machines were working overtime. But I know how valuable to the story the lasers and vortex effects are. And they are MIA. And that detracts from the story and detail. First times won't even know they are missing. And that's a huge problem. Like Everest (gasp). With a mentality that it's still drawing crowds so why fix it, the World is very slowly becoming mediocre.

In short, I love the parks and experiences brought to us by Walt, Roy, Card, D ick and the rest. And Michael and Franks first decade. Post mid 90s results are more miss than hit.

2. Possibly. What you dont know can't hurt you, right?

I still love the parks. But like management, I like them more for the legacy and ground works done years ago, not for how they are run today. Indeed I'm in a position now where I'm fortunate enough to know enough locals and CMs I can enjoy the company I'm with and the environment second.

Indeed, despite our trip later this year being 50% longer than normal, we are planning on spending less days in the world than we normally would. Busch is getting 2 days, Uni/IOA a third day. We enjoy those parks as much as any WDW park, and Unis upkeep is streets ahead of the Mouses. As is Comcasts future vision which I so admire. They are truely aiming for the top now and are going places with a passion. WDW is just free rolling on the name.

We're even considering not getting APs this year. Hoppers, yes. But nothing more. I went to Disneyland for the first time in 2010. My pilgrimage. I thought I knew what to expect, but the operations and maintainence surpassed my expectations. Which naturally makes me see how WDW is run even more for the sorry state it is. We're going to DLP this Summer. I already know what to expect, but with the current resort-wide polishing project, new night time show that WDW rejected a version of, and seeing a true state of the art, non cloned E Ticket being built it'll put Orlando into even sharper perspective. All of this cries out that if DL can do it on far less profit that only 2 smaller mainly local parks generate, and DLP can do it whilst still serving its 1992 debt mountain, why cant the worlds most popular tourist attraction at least keep up? I love WDW with a passion. I love WDW for its past. Not for Horizons and Toad, but for the place being run like the number one destination it was and still is for now. Complacency may be its downfall. The opposition will gain more ground. And I'll be glad. If that's what it takes. TDA have a battle plan for Potter west. TDO still (mostly) think its a flash in the pan. If I know they're wrong, surely they should?

Anyway... Enough. You asked, I answered :wave:

 

[flynnibus]

I think we agree here (though I'm sure you'll let me know if we don't!). Whatever the reason for the detail that guests may or maynot notice, they are important to the overall execution and experience. Omitting them, while not detremental to the experience (read: ruins vacation), does indeed rob you of some of the richness and depth that Disney created in the past...whether you notice or not. And sometimes when those details are noticed (especially when you're trained to look for them) they end up sticking out like a sore thumb.

I think you get it... just wanted to add that in the context of this discussion there are 'details that matter' and 'details there for the sake of detail' that may not matter. It's possible for the second category to go away without impacting the guest experience... but may 'impact' a fans interpretation of the product.

The latter category often is about product pride, brand, expectations.. and people get upset about changes there even if they really have no impact on the actual PRODUCT as used at all.

Fans should be self aware of what they are fighting over... something that matters to the attraction.. or something that matters purely within the impression/expectation they have of Disney.

Add on top of that 'change'... and you see how people get upset about something that changed, even if the change doesn't negatively impact the actual attraction. If the change was in something they cherrish, they fight for it (as it reflects on their impression/expectation of the company) even if the change really doesn't impact the actual attraction.

It's why being upset over change isn't bad.. but one must keep perspective of what the change actually impacts.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Oh my. What a thread. I spent the better part of the evening picking thru it. Extremely fascinating read from the starting line. Got a bit sidetracked for a bit (I ended up skimming that part) but has landed back in solid territory.


Normally I steer clear from the News & Rumors section unless I'm bored with other sections. I know. Shameful not to seek to enlighten myself more. The in' matches that go down there are entirely too much like the rest of my day with my teenage boys. If this thread had not been relegated to Trip Reports I might not have read it, tho. Even if it doesn't feel like the usual TR, I don't think the move of the thread (no matter how odd) was a bad thing. Think of it as planting the possibility of reaching a new audience. Is that not what '74 would like to have happen in the end? Accidental success. Thank you, fate.


'74, I think I've previously found commonality with you somewhere in regards to the overall current state of affairs. Was it E:E or Splash? Prob'ly both. As I said then, I feel where you're coming from and understand on some smaller level largely because I've not yet made my way to other Disney destinations. This is something I fully intend to rectify sooner than later. Reading your insight makes me that much more excited at the prospects. Thank you.


Ravenclawdia, I would love to see what your path will be in life. Your writing is incredible. You have a gift. Make the most of it, dear! I'm a fan already. :wave:


Ugh! So much good stuff here. Hard to think of it all just now. Let's see what I multi-quoted:

Getting damn close.

Lee, this was your response to the question: Are things Pressler/Harris bad yet. THIS is where a lot of my current questions lie but I do not feel comfortable openly asking direct questions when they are likely to spur a huge flame-job. I don't make it a habit to invite flame-jobs. Criticizing effects is one thing but questioning anything even remotely related to things that are safety related seems to stir up a fluff of monumental proportions. It's my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong because I only seek to learn & understand) that the ending bits of the Pressler/Harris days were 2 occurances that resulted in death/injury. I, like others, see the current state of the way things appear such as show & effects in attractions all across the WDW parks. If this is the current state of things we see, what is the current state of the things we don't see? Do you feel where I'm going with this? What will be the occurances that scream "Wake up!" at WDW? I wonder...and, like the mama that I am, I worry. Am I unreasonable in this direction of thought?

I decided a number of years ago to stay at every resort for at least a week each, sort of a bucket list. I've stayed everywhere I wanted to (except CBR, CSR and the DVC resorts) other than Boardwalk and GF. So GF this summer and BW next, then I'll decide which I prefer and stay there in future. So far, my preferences are Pop for quick, cheap trips, POFQ for most other trips and Beach Club when I feel like splurging (which may be fairly often).

To answer the rest: Yes, I'm insane, but have been for many years. And unfortunately, yes I stayed out in the cold too long... The reason I'm a multilateral amputee was extreme, traumatic frostbite suffered in 1991. :shrug: If we ever finally meet up in the parks I'll share the whole story... :animwink:

I've read about this. A blog, was it? I'd love to meet you someday, somehow to talk about anything but Disney. But I digress from the topic of discussion again.... :animwink:

I spent almost 2 years researching Walt Disney, the Disney Company, the finances of the company, the Imagineering way, the leadership styles of past and present leaders of the company, the Disney theme park design, immersing myself in the films, documentaries, books, books, and more books about how it was, what was to be, and what never became, etc while writing my thesis and developing a new theory on corporate leadership. During that time I was visiting WDW almost weekly, paying attention to the details that were being explained in what I was reading and watching. Man it was such an exciting change to see the parks in a whole new light, to go from casual park guest and fan to being able to understand the detail behind everything that was around me. I also made my first trip to Disneyland (how could I write a thesis where my primary exemplar was Walt Disney and not visit his theme park??). I think that trip was what sealed the deal for me on starting to see things weren't quite right at WDW. It was night and day doing a back-to-back visit to DL and WDW in 2009.

When you've taken a back to back trip like that and have read so much about the quality and standards that Walt had for everything he did, it's very easy to see that those principles that he created the company on (and Disneyland) are no longer the primary means of operating WDW. Compliment that with examples from people like Lee and Martin who somehow know exactly how every attraction looked and operated according to the specs and down to the very last detail...and even by reading imagineering books that go into detail on all of the effects...you start looking forward to spotting something that you've never noticed before only to find out that the reason you never noticed it is because it hasn't been working for a year. :shrug: Then of course I've had some very spirited conversations with '74 who is all but willing to share his insight and information on the company past and present and how it got to be where it is today if you just ask him. All of the above goes into me forming my opinion on the current state of the parks.

There is so much to say on this subject, it's more of a dinner conversation I guess. If your ever in the area we could get together and chat more about it (i'm always up for a good discussion!).

But to sum up...I've said it many times, I've enjoyed practically each and every day I've ever spent at WDW and will continue to do so on my next visit. Do I notice broken effects, missing trees, cut corners, peeling paint...sure (but I'm a detail oriented person anyway). Does it keep me from having a great time? No, absolutely not.

Ah! Such interesting stuff to be learned. I only wish I had the time and dilligence to study as you have. I know I'll never come close to being as fascinating a character as others or be of any use other than someone who'll listen if you like to share the wealth of knowledge. I don't ever expect to entertain the company of most of y'all with all the info but I'd love to find a way to absorb as much as possible and ask my many, many questions that float within my brain. Write a book perhaps? Please? Perhaps charge admission to sit and listen quietly at a "jam session" when the meeting of the minds takes place.

I saw my name mentioned here and there..

1. Yes. I still grin when I walk in a park. I love grabbing a coffee and people watching. I can enjoy a parade once a trip. But if during said pastimes I see lights not working still, or a float mis performing it stands out like a sore thumb. I still enjoy say Space Mountain, but more for the sheer awe inspiring scale of the 1975 design, not the current sorry state of a stuttering ride that was cruelly denied the refurb it so deserved.

Sadly, knowing what I know always comes to the front no matter. Mansion is fantastic. I love the graveyard even. But I can't help wishing they went even further and plussed the stretch rooms more, as planned.

Another great example is Dinosaur. It was short changed at birth. Riding last year, The AAs look great. As did the meteors, even with the little smoke puff impacts. The smoke machines were working overtime. But I know how valuable to the story the lasers and vortex effects are. And they are MIA. And that detracts from the story and detail. First times won't even know they are missing. And that's a huge problem. Like Everest (gasp). With a mentality that it's still drawing crowds so why fix it, the World is very slowly becoming mediocre.

In short, I love the parks and experiences brought to us by Walt, Roy, Card, D ick and the rest. And Michael and Franks first decade. Post mid 90s results are more miss than hit.

2. Possibly. What you dont know can't hurt you, right?

I still love the parks. But like management, I like them more for the legacy and ground works done years ago, not for how they are run today. Indeed I'm in a position now where I'm fortunate enough to know enough locals and CMs I can enjoy the company I'm with and the environment second.

Indeed, despite our trip later this year being 50% longer than normal, we are planning on spending less days in the world than we normally would. Busch is getting 2 days, Uni/IOA a third day. We enjoy those parks as much as any WDW park, and Unis upkeep is streets ahead of the Mouses. As is Comcasts future vision which I so admire. They are truely aiming for the top now and are going places with a passion. WDW is just free rolling on the name.

We're even considering not getting APs this year. Hoppers, yes. But nothing more. I went to Disneyland for the first time in 2010. My pilgrimage. I thought I knew what to expect, but the operations and maintainence surpassed my expectations. Which naturally makes me see how WDW is run even more for the sorry state it is. We're going to DLP this Summer. I already know what to expect, but with the current resort-wide polishing project, new night time show that WDW rejected a version of, and seeing a true state of the art, non cloned E Ticket being built it'll put Orlando into even sharper perspective. All of this cries out that if DL can do it on far less profit that only 2 smaller mainly local parks generate, and DLP can do it whilst still serving its 1992 debt mountain, why cant the worlds most popular tourist attraction at least keep up? I love WDW with a passion. I love WDW for its past. Not for Horizons and Toad, but for the place being run like the number one destination it was and still is for now. Complacency may be its downfall. The opposition will gain more ground. And I'll be glad. If that's what it takes. TDA have a battle plan for Potter west. TDO still (mostly) think its a flash in the pan. If I know they're wrong, surely they should?

Anyway... Enough. You asked, I answered :wave:

I loved your answers here. I thoroughly enjoyed hearing the answers from others as well and seeing things described from your perspective. Again, I just don't hang around the News & Rumors to catch enough of what you and a handful of others have to say or lend in the way of insight which I do regret. As for #2, another example of how sometimes, on some level, ignorance can be bliss. When you know more, your eyes are open and bliss becomes harder to achieve. **sigh** I feel this. The scary part is in realizing that I don't know what many of you do yet already feeling the way that I do.


Big shout-out to dreamscometrue for asking such good questions of the minds. Success, my friend, in bringing purpose and insight back into a thread that had quite a detour into useless in'. Thank you! :wave:


'74, is there more to be told for your trip? Thoughts and commentary on other parks during your visit? I'm anxious to see, read, and contemplate. :wave:

 

[Monty]

I've read about this. A blog, was it? I'd love to meet you someday, somehow to talk about anything but Disney. But I digress from the topic of discussion again.... :animwink:

I probably posted my home page somewhere along the line: http://www.montymon.ca

I love meeting WDWMagicers in the parks (or even in Huntsville once). I'm there near the end of August every year and somewhat frequently beyond that! LOL Keep an eye on my signature for when my next trip is and if it works with when you're going, we'll work out a meeting!

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I probably posted my home page somewhere along the line: http://www.montymon.ca

I love meeting WDWMagicers in the parks (or even in Huntsville once). I'm there near the end of August every year and somewhat frequently beyond that! LOL Keep an eye on my signature for when my next trip is and if it works with when you're going, we'll work out a meeting!

Definitely will do. Problem is with the exception of 2 quick nights in May we really have zero plans to hit up WDW until maybe 2014. If for some odd reason you land anywhere in the south or Houston-ish, lemme know! :animwink:

 

[Lee]

Lee, this was your response to the question: Are things Pressler/Harris bad yet. THIS is where a lot of my current questions lie but I do not feel comfortable openly asking direct questions when they are likely to spur a huge flame-job. I don't make it a habit to invite flame-jobs. Criticizing effects is one thing but questioning anything even remotely related to things that are safety related seems to stir up a fluff of monumental proportions. It's my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong because I only seek to learn & understand) that the ending bits of the Pressler/Harris days were 2 occurances that resulted in death/injury. I, like others, see the current state of the way things appear such as show & effects in attractions all across the WDW parks. If this is the current state of things we see, what is the current state of the things we don't see? Do you feel where I'm going with this? What will be the occurances that scream "Wake up!" at WDW? I wonder...and, like the mama that I am, I worry. Am I unreasonable in this direction of thought?

Its kind of hard to say, really.
From what I know, the maintenance issues at WDW are almost entirely show related. As you obviously know, DL had some serious issues that lead to two deaths (Columbia and BTM) and some close calls (Space Mtn.). I'm not aware of any safety issues at WDW, but that's the problem...things like that you don't see until it's too late. Lets just hope that isn't the case.

As far as a wake-up call...it has to happen in one of two ways:
First, and best is when the fans and guests begin to raise their voice, both through complaints and with their wallets. Nothing gets an executive's attention like declining profits. Well...except for...

Secondly, something bad happens. I really hope it never comes to that again.

So, until WDW begins to see either a fan/guest uprising like DL had, or attendance/profits fall...they will not see a reason to change their current management style or business model.

 

[dreamscometrue]

So, until WDW begins to see either a fan/guest uprising like DL had, or attendance/profits fall...they will not see a reason to change their current management style or business model.

As I stated earlier, in my experience with management for 20 years in my profession, most do care and have pride. Some are much more competent and/or better with budgets, but few are mean spirited and really don't care about the product or customer. It's difficult for me to believe that all upper management types at TDO, who are surely aware of issues that you, '74, etc. raise, simply don't care.

Which leads me to ask the question I raised in an earlier post...Do you think that it's as simple as all that matters to TDO is numbers and nobody really cares or has pride in the product? Is it budget, incompetence, or what some people on these boards might simply see as incorrect priorities?

The latter question I find interesting because I can't understand how TDO could spend hundreds of millions on FLE, and several 'upgrades'...BTMRR, ST2, Test Track, even cosmetics like fountain of nations refurb, but not address some of the issues you raise, which are likely not prohited by cost. It can't simply be money. They are spending money.

Do most guests care if the fountain has a new railing or the Epcot momorail beams are cleaned? Clearly money is being spent, but why on these things instead of issues that concern you?

Thanks :wave:

 

[dreamscometrue]

Big shout-out to dreamscometrue for asking such good questions of the minds. Success, my friend, in bringing purpose and insight back into a thread that had quite a detour into useless in'. Thank you! :wave

Thanks for the 'shout-out'. :wave:

I appreciate good discussion, am inquisitive, and like to read what seasoned veterans have to say.

Btw, I just got back from 9 days at WDW, and I made a list on the plane of what I saw 'broken/wrong', and what I saw that looked great imho (even things like landscaping, audio, etc.). The 'good' list had about 50 items and the 'bad' list, about 5. As I stated in an earlier post to '74, I saw very, very little wrong, and I'm not a newbie. I looked around, knew what to look for in most attractions, and saw most of WDW in awesome shape. It's not an issue of right or wrong or having 'blinders' on, people see what they see...and perception is indeed reality.

I'm sure were I to have '74 as a guide, he could point out many issues, but if I need a guide like that to spot them (and I've been to WDW a lot over the years), then things really are quite good. On these boards, the issues are raised by perhaps 50-100 people, out of what, 60,000. That's probably typical of the fraction of the annual visitors that notice as well. (That does not mean that TDO should not address the things that Lee, '74, devoy1701, etc. notice, but it does explain why these things are not priorities for the most part.)

 

[Bolna]

Btw, I just got back from 9 days at WDW, and I made a list on the plane of what I saw 'broken/wrong', and what I saw that looked great imho (even things like landscaping, audio, etc.). The 'good' list had about 50 items and the 'bad' list, about 5. As I stated in an earlier post to '74, I saw very, very little wrong, and I'm not a newbie. I looked around, knew what to look for in most attractions, and saw most of WDW in awesome shape. It's not an issue of right or wrong or having 'blinders' on, people see what they see...and perception is indeed reality.

I'm sure were I to have '74 as a guide, he could point out many issues, but if I need a guide like that to spot them (and I've been to WDW a lot over the years), then things really are quite good. On these boards, the issues are raised by perhaps 50-100 people, out of what, 60,000. That's probably typical of the fraction of the annual visitors that notice as well. (That does not mean that TDO should not address the things that Lee, '74, devoy1701, etc. notice, but it does explain why these things are not priorities for the most part.)

I always find it interesting to see how other people view the parks. And what they notice.

Two (relatively) recent incidents stood out to me - and made me realize that maybe being a Disney fan does indeed make me see the parks through rose coloured glasses.

The first was on my last trip to DLP. I was there with a friend who thinks DLP is fun - every 8 years for a weekend. That's all the Disney she wants. We were sitting in the theater for Animagique (a show, I would say the theater is about the size of the Nemo Musical theater at AK) waiting for the show to start. In our section there was a female CM working and suddenly my friend started to complain about how sloppy this CM looked and said: "This really isn't up to Disney's standards!". I hadn't even noticed it. But I found it very interesting that even my friend who is such a casual Disney guest had a certain set of expectations and was annoyed to see those not being met.

The other one is from my last trip to WDW with my sister. It was after her first ride ever on Splash Mountain at the MK when I commented that it was sad that the water features in the one scene withe the frogs did not work. Obviously she had no chance to know that there was something missing as she had never experienced the effect. And her reaction was that she had been wondering about this scene as it appeared to be so boring and not what she would expect in a Disney ride.

So, what I think is that people do notice - and those who aren't fans (and I think everyone who spends time discussing WDW on a message board must be a fan to some degree) might even notice things more because they don't already come with a love for those parks.

However, a lot of people might not even be able to actually voice what they feel that is missing (like my sister on Splash Mountain), because they don't know it. But that feeling of something missing is still there. And I can't believe that this is a good thing in any way for Disney.

But this appears to be the change in the way Disney is running the parks. Instead of aiming at making all visitors 100% happy, they think making x% visitors at least x% happy is enough. Not sure what the x is at the moment, but I get the feeling that it is being pushed lower every year. One year they will wake up and find that the x they aimed at is so low that they damaged the reputation of their brand.

 

[Lee]

The latter question I find interesting because I can't understand how TDO could spend hundreds of millions on FLE, and several 'upgrades'...BTMRR, ST2, Test Track, even cosmetics like fountain of nations refurb, but not address some of the issues you raise, which are likely not prohited by cost. It can't simply be money. They are spending money.

Here is the thing...
FLE was pushed through by Burbank in order to address the MK's capacity issues. Were it solely up to TDO, it wouldn't have happened.

BTMRR is undergoing a much needed maintenance-based refurb. It HAD to be done.

ST2, like FLE was a Burbank call, and its development costs were shared with DL's. (Not to mention TDO originally balked at doing the full refurb, and tried to get by with doing a bare-bones version. Luckily that got shot down.)

Test Track is happening because GM was willing to write a big check. Otherwise...nada.

Meanwhile other projects like PotC and Space Mtn. had their scope cut drastically, Jungle's much needed refurb has been pushed back for years, refurbs for CBJ and Maelstrom gather dust, the yeti is still broken, show issues abound and prices go up.

I really can't see a lot that is praiseworthy coming out of TDO.

 

[dreamscometrue]

Interesting post Bolna, but I am going to ask you the same question I asked Lee (and anyone else who wishes to answer), after I preface the question with a statement as I see it

I can't understand how TDO could spend hundreds of millions on FLE, and several 'upgrades'...BTMRR, ST2, Test Track, even cosmetics like fountain of nations refurb, but not address some of the issues you raise, which are likely not prohited by cost. It can't simply be money. They are spending money always...big money.

Is it simply a matter of priorities? Is it that simple?

The cost of keeping an effect running on Splash or another attraction (except maybe the Yeti), must be incredibly small compared to all the rufubs, etc. going on.

 

[dreamscometrue]

Here is the thing...
FLE was pushed through by Burbank in order to address the MK's capacity issues. Were it solely up to TDO, it wouldn't have happened.

BTMRR is undergoing a much needed maintenance-based refurb. It HAD to be done.

ST2, like FLE was a Burbank call, and its development costs were shared with DL's. (Not to mention TDO originally balked at doing the full refurb, and tried to get by with doing a bare-bones version. Luckily that got shot down.)

Test Track is happening because GM was willing to write a big check. Otherwise...nada.

Meanwhile other projects like PotC and Space Mtn. had their scope cut drastically, Jungle's much needed refurb has been pushed back for years, refurbs for CBJ and Maelstrom gather dust, the yeti is still broken, show issues abound and prices go up.

I really can't see a lot that is praiseworthy coming out of TDO.

So what about the other question Lee?

Which leads me to ask the question I raised in an earlier post...Do you think that it's as simple as all that matters to TDO is numbers and nobody really cares or has pride in the product? Is it budget, incompetence, or what some people on these boards might simply see as incorrect priorities?