Spirited Thoughts, News, Observations etc.

OK, hide the women and the children ... most importantly send the fanbois to bed with their plush and tell them to hide under the covers ... waaaay down under them because it's time for some Spirited thoughts, observations, news and anecdotes from a long weekend at The World Maintenance Forgot, yes WDW.

Where to start? With a conclusion? Or should I just work on down?

Should I start with the good ... things like seeing friends, having great weather, appreciating some things that the fan community tends to ignore and seeing EPCOT in its best colors?

Or ... do I focus on everything else? Because all going to WDW did for me this weekend was exceed my already amazingly low expectations for the state of WDW infrastructure and show quality (hey, they did exceed expectations, right?) and get me more excited for my future visits to DLP, possibly BGW, DL ... and, hopefully in the not too distant future, the Asian resorts again too.

Let's start with the basics. Freshness. If you had visited WDW in 2006 and hadn't returned in six years, you would find no appreciable new product in three of four parks.

You would find show quality that already had issues showing more issues than the typical fanboi in therapy. Well, that's if you can actually get to the MK because the crumbling monorail system has to be shut down all day from 11:30 a.m to 6 p.m. to do track work in the midst of one of the busiest times of the year ... imagine paying $500-700 a night for a room at the GF or Poly with monorail convenience touted (wonder what guest recovery they are doing there!) ... but let's assume you find your way there.

Let's start with the stuff the fan community is all lathered up for, namely the Storybook Circus mini-land expansion of Fantasyland. What did I think of it?

Not very much at all.

As usual, the hype was much greater than the product, which can't be viewed in a vacuum in a park that is crumbling and has no wow factor at all anymore.

In the day, Dumbo's primary colors and the red painted construction fences all around come off as garish ... befitting a circus, no doubt ... but Old Man Disney was no more a fan of circuses than he was of amusement parks and piers and the shady elements that all attracted. So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last. And it spins high enough to peek over construction walls and we all know how much that has become en vogue in O-Town of late.

It is a beautiful kinetic piece at night when the lighting is largely coming from the white and red bulbs that rim the queue (likely more of a makeshift deal now until the old Dumbo starts spinning across the way) and the LEDs embedded in the fountains underneath. But it is still Dumbo.

Sort of like the Barnstormer is still the Barnstormer, just missing much in the way of theming. Its prior incarnation had some whimsy, this doesn't. But they weren't getting rid of the only kiddie coaster in the park, so this was a cheap fix. Oh, and thanks to Bob Iger working with a chainsaw, you can now watch Disney buses and CMs driving to/fro work behind the MK as you walk up the queue if you peer left. I will never get what Phil and TDO have against trees, but they certainly do.

Nothing else is open beyond a much nicer train station that is still a train station ... and a set of new restrooms (someone needs to page Talking Head to this thread stat!) What I found amazing is that Disney was too cheap to actually connect these facilities to the park's main water supply, so they are using water from the immediate area that is untreated (or perhaps non-filtered/cleansed is more appropriate) so you have bizarre signs saying the water is 'non potable' (that means you can't drink it for those with limited vocabularies) over toilets. I know Disney's prices are crazy for a Coke, but over the toilet?!? ... Of course, the reason is they have colored the water blue because otherwise it would be a very icky color and folks would constantly be complaining that something isn't right.

Are the details nice? Sure. But they are very basic. I was much more excited by leaf patterns in the walkways around Old Man Island at Dixie Landings 20 years ago than I am by various hoof prints and 'peanuts' embedded in this area.

So much of this area also suffers from having both exposed coaster track (Disney fanbois seem to have issues with this at UNI) and show buildings just sticking out like a Duffy alone on a shelf full of Minnies.

If this is what Disney believes will raise the bar in O-Town ... well, no ... they don't. They understand what they have built and why. This is about capacity ... and NEXT GEN ... and keeping folks from being bored out of their minds by offering something 'new'.

It's in 'soft opening' now, but let's be blunt: they had to get this open and open now. They have so little capacity in this park due to 15 years of taking away and not adding. MK just isn't a very pleasant place right now at all with crowds and walls and lots of attractions that have seen far better days.

Again, it also seems that Ops and WDI simply can't get on the same page no matter what ... Dumbo opens with small plants where every little kid (and plenty of big ones) are going to stand, so the result is the foliage that was there Monday was trampled and mostly dead or dying by Friday. How they miss these basics is beyond me, although I think communication and common sense are both lacking.

Now, what else was 'new' (to me) at MK? Spin the Fanboi? Pin the Tail on Meg? Dole Whip tees (I mean, REALLY?!?!) ... or how about the latest way to hook OCD fanbois and why it is so important to NEXT GEN.

I'll see you all a little later ... like in the next post!

 

[GLaDOS]

Interesting post Bolna, but I am going to ask you the same question I asked Lee (and anyone else who wishes to answer), after I preface the question with a statement as I see it

I can't understand how TDO could spend hundreds of millions on FLE, and several 'upgrades'...BTMRR, ST2, Test Track, even cosmetics like fountain of nations refurb, but not address some of the issues you raise, which are likely not prohited by cost. It can't simply be money. They are spending money always...big money.

Is it simply a matter of priorities? Is it that simple?

The cost of keeping an effect running on Splash or another attraction (except maybe the Yeti), must be incredibly small compared to all the rufubs, etc. going on.

The maintenance issues still go back to costs.

The maintenance departments across the board have been gutted in order to save on labor costs, and in tun you see the shoddy show conditions we have now. Maintenance workers don't have time or the resources to fix the smaller effects, and instead are forced to only focus on making sure rides run day-in, day-out.

On top of that, Ops leaders have thrown out the show quality rules and won't close a ride unless it physically won't run anymore, leading to problems piling up that never get fixed.

 

[Lee]

So what about the other question Lee?

Which leads me to ask the question I raised in an earlier post...Do you think that it's as simple as all that matters to TDO is numbers and nobody really cares or has pride in the product? Is it budget, incompetence, or what some people on these boards might simply see as incorrect priorities?

Yeah, it all boils down to money.
They are running as cheap and lean as they can in order to keep profits up in the face of lower attendance and discounting.

They, for the most part, don't care about show. Most TDO suits never actually visit the parks or ride the rides. As long as the spreadsheets look good, they're quite happy.

GLaDOS summed up the situation perfectly.

 

[Bolna]

Interesting post Bolna, but I am going to ask you the same question I asked Lee (and anyone else who wishes to answer), after I preface the question with a statement as I see it

I can't understand how TDO could spend hundreds of millions on FLE, and several 'upgrades'...BTMRR, ST2, Test Track, even cosmetics like fountain of nations refurb, but not address some of the issues you raise, which are likely not prohited by cost. It can't simply be money. They are spending money always...big money.

Is it simply a matter of priorities? Is it that simple?

The cost of keeping an effect running on Splash or another attraction (except maybe the Yeti), must be incredibly small compared to all the rufubs, etc. going on.

First of all, I want to say that I have no inside knowledge of the workings at TDO. But I have been reading Disney message boards since the last century and am a good observer and can think and so have come to certain conclusions.

I think the difference between the projects you are mentioning and and the day to day operations of WDW are just that: There is money for big investments (however, maybe even less than in the 90s), but this comes from a different "source" than the daily operation budget. And it is different people making those big investment decisions.

I think what we see is the result of this believe that TDO management seems to have that every attraction/shop etc. has to be profitable on its own. So cutting labour costs in maintenance as GLaDOS pointed out appears to be very little money saved. But for the one attraction budget that cut might have equaled a rise in profit in that year. It does look good on paper.

Just as Lee said, it appears that WDW is more run on the basis of spread sheets than on the basis of actually knowledge of the product. And in an industry which delivers a creative product that might be worse than if you are selling - for example - commodities.

 

[Master Yoda]

Yeah, it all boils down to money.
They are running as cheap and lean as they can in order to keep profits up in the face of lower attendance and discounting.

They, for the most part, don't care about show. Most TDO suits never actually visit the parks or ride the rides. As long as the spreadsheets look good, they're quite happy.

GLaDOS summed up the situation perfectly.

And this is not unique to Disney. The same thing has been going on at AT&T for a while. The few people at the top care only about the quarterly report. That attitude trickles down all the way to the front line workers not because they do not care, but because their jobs depend on it. My wife has seen once good managers with great people skills that would focus on quality and customer service turn into people that could not motivate a person to walk out of a burning building and could care less if a customer is happy.

 

[Lee]

And this is not unique to Disney. The same thing has been going on at AT&T for a while. The few people at the top care only about the quarterly report. That attitude trickles down all the way to the front line workers not because they do not care, but because their jobs depend on it. My wife has seen once good managers with great people skills that would focus on quality and customer service turn into people that could not motivate a person to walk out of a burning building and could care less if a customer is happy.

Oh, man...I could tell horror stories.
Front line AT&T is a miserable existence. Not much above those guys that row ships under threat of the lash. Horrible.

WDW is just operating under a "good enough" mindset now. As long as the show goes on, no matter the quality, it's good enough.

 

[Master Yoda]

Oh, man...I could tell horror stories.
Front line AT&T is a miserable existence. Not much above those guys that row ships under threat of the lash. Horrible.

WDW is just operating under a "good enough" mindset now. As long as the show goes on, no matter the quality, it's good enough.

The wife, up until a couple of weeks ago, worked in the customer service call center for the last several years. I have heard far too many horror stories to tell.

 

[WDW1974]

First, glad to see the thread going strong and, apparently, the troll gone.

I've had something come up unexpectedly, which has hindered my ability to read/post. I hope to be able to continue soon, but it may be sporadic for a while.

But let's see what I can get to right now ...

 

[WDW1974]

Have we reached Pressler/Harris bad yet? and I mean that honestly.

Hard to say really. SQS always seemed higher out there, even when the park was crumbling on the outside (like a chunk of the Tiki Room blowing away during a Santa Ana) ... but they did kill and injure folks on their watch.

Of course, WDW did kill a CM on monorails due to poor training and ignoring/overriding safety protocols ... and a bus driver did run over and kill a child on a bike at FW ... and how many 'minor' incidents are we just not aware of because no one wound up in a body bag?

In terms of infrastructure and allowing things to decay, I certainly think MK is right up there with DL in its dark days. How bad are things? Well, that's very hard to answer unless you have some horrific 'accident' where people are injured or killed. But it doesn't mean much of the resort isn't being held together by duct tape and chewing gum, either.

 

[officeboy]

Its kind of hard to say, really.
From what I know, the maintenance issues at WDW are almost entirely show related. As you obviously know, DL had some serious issues that lead to two deaths (Columbia and BTM) and some close calls (Space Mtn.). I'm not aware of any safety issues at WDW, but that's the problem...things like that you don't see until it's too late. Lets just hope that isn't the case.

As far as a wake-up call...it has to happen in one of two ways:
First, and best is when the fans and guests begin to raise their voice, both through complaints and with their wallets. Nothing gets an executive's attention like declining profits. Well...except for...

Secondly, something bad happens. I really hope it never comes to that again.

So, until WDW begins to see either a fan/guest uprising like DL had, or attendance/profits fall...they will not see a reason to change their current management style or business model.

Hmmm. The monorail accident was bad. Did things change? Lawyers got paid and few operational suggestions (opps, I mean OGs) but not much changed in the big picture did it?

My point is rather dull, but even significant events that don't drastically impact the bottom line don't seem to motivate. Is my perspective askew?

 

[COProgressFan]

Just as Lee said, it appears that WDW is more run on the basis of spread sheets than on the basis of actually knowledge of the product. And in an industry which delivers a creative product that might be worse than if you are selling - for example - commodities.

It often seems as if the WDW product is treated as a simple commodity. The ridiculous "Disney Parks" concept supports this. But what they seem to often forget is that they are selling a total experience, not simple parts here and there. The whole package has to add up, in terms of food, merchandise, cleanliness, theme, cast members, etc. Every time they make cuts to the quality of any of those items, the product suffers. We're talking about completely discretionary dollars being spent by guests. I would imagine profitability would go up if more guests has "wow" experiences than "meh" experiences even though "wow" experiences cost more in the short term.

One thing I had thought about recently was how after the collapse of Disney Feature Animation in the early 2000s, when Iger was brought in (who I'm not exactly a huge fan of) and Lasseter took control, there seemed to be at least lip service given to the concept that animation, and films in general, are creative entities that can't (or shouldn't) be tightly controlled by MBAs, marketing, or merchandise execs, but instead by the creative visionaries producing them (see Pixar). And we've seen some evidence of change back toward letting the creatives do their work, as evidenced by better movies out of WDFA.

But for some reason, Iger, Rasulo, Staggs, etc. has not embraced a return to this creative approach in theme parks. Theme parks are a creative entity, and a permanent and real one. But yet the short-sighted MBAs, merchandising and marketing execs seem to have all the control in operating them. When you start squeezing every single penny out of your operations you end up with a product that falls flat and the audience responds accordingly. No one *needs* to take a Disney vacation, so if you cut the product back to the bare bones, all while raising prices to outrageous levels, people just won't go.

 

[Master Yoda]

Hard to say really. SQS always seemed higher out there, even when the park was crumbling on the outside (like a chunk of the Tiki Room blowing away during a Santa Ana) ... but they did kill and injure folks on their watch.

Of course, WDW did kill a CM on monorails due to poor training and ignoring/overriding safety protocols ... and a bus driver did run over and kill a child on a bike at FW ... and how many 'minor' incidents are we just not aware of because no one wound up in a body bag?

In terms of infrastructure and allowing things to decay, I certainly think MK is right up there with DL in its dark days. How bad are things? Well, that's very hard to answer unless you have some horrific 'accident' where people are injured or killed. But it doesn't mean much of the resort isn't being held together by duct tape and chewing gum, either.

Not correct. The kid ran into the side of a moving bus. The driver never left the roadway and was not found at fault. WDW's current condition does not require you to falsify information to make your point. Doing so only discredits you.

 

[WDW1974]

:lol:

I decided a number of years ago to stay at every resort for at least a week each, sort of a bucket list. I've stayed everywhere I wanted to (except CBR, CSR and the DVC resorts) other than Boardwalk and GF. So GF this summer and BW next, then I'll decide which I prefer and stay there in future. So far, my preferences are Pop for quick, cheap trips, POFQ for most other trips and Beach Club when I feel like splurging (which may be fairly often).

I've stayed at every WDW resort except ASMo and the DVC resorts that have opened since 2009, so I understand your desire to see them all. I even agree with your taste in Pop and especially PO. But I can no longer justify the absurd price points for service that isn't what it should. Again, if the Sheraton LBV can provide real bath sheets at the pools, why should I get All Star towels at the GF? The answer is the customers don't demand more. That's Walmarting.

To answer the rest: Yes, I'm insane, but have been for many years. And unfortunately, yes I stayed out in the cold too long... The reason I'm a multilateral amputee was extreme, traumatic frostbite suffered in 1991. :shrug: If we ever finally meet up in the parks I'll share the whole story... :animwink:

You didn't have to admit to the insanity, most of us just assumed:animwink:.
I wasn't aware you were an amputee (doesn't usually come up in casual MAGICal conversation), although someone I believe told me you had some disability (so I guess that's what they meant). I have had amputees in my family as well, so I won't make a joke about WDW costing ya ...

I keep forgetting whether I've asked you this, but have you been to DLR?

 

[WDW1974]

Not correct. The kid ran into the side of a moving bus. The driver never left the roadway and was not found at fault. WDW's current condition does not require you to falsify information to make your point. Doing so only discredits you.

Just a quick 'correction' ... yes, what you said is true from the reports (no idea how true they are, but that's another story ...) but the bottom line is the bus killed the child.

Oh, and I don't believe he ran into the bus, so much as fell into it. Maybe I'm just being negative because when my bus was unloading at the Contemporary last week, the driver decided to (without warning) lurch the bus ahead another 2-3 feet ... and, yes, someone could have been very seriously injured.

But as for the FW incident ...perhaps, having buses driving so close to roadways with bike riders isn't smart?:shrug:

 

[WDW1974]

I didn't really notice anyone else mention this, but I'm glad you brought it up. There is something (dare I say) "magical" about spinning around on Dumbo, right next to the castle. An evening ride during the fireworks is a memorable experience. That said, will it be quite as magical in the new land? While spinning on the new Dumbo, you'll get to see gaudy circus tents, a hideous green show building in plain view, and enjoy the wafting scent of exhaust from the speedway. I'm not sure the impact will be the same.

Yes, that was my point. It just seems a whole lot less MAGICal to ride Dumbo waaay at the back of the park. I just have the feeling it's going to be less of a must do for many folks now.

:ROFLOL: It's funny, but it's also kind of sad. It amazes me how Disneyland is in the middle of small city, with Tomorrowland just feet from Harbor Blvd., and the whole park sandwiched next to I-5. But you'd never know it. Splash Mountain sits mere feet from the Haunted Mansion, but with some smart landscaping, it doesn't feel that way.

Yet, despite the massive acreage of WDW, you can clearly see the Contemporary from Liberty Square and now apparently see the very north end of World Drive from the Barnstormer queue. Not to mention the little details such as not replacing trees near the Haunted Mansion so the show building can be seen, and little effort made to hide the Tomorrowland manager parking lot from the train.

And if I'm ranting about landscaping, might I add how "impressive" :brick: the mulch and small leafy bushes are in the new area. Apparently the horticulture team must have all be dispatched to Epcot this month.

Just look at photos of the MK from 20 years ago and compare to today. Where there once were huge shade trees and beautiful landscaping, you get sapling and wood chips. I would love to know what TDO has against trees, but except for areas of Frontierland, most of the park has lost its canopy and Disney seems to have no desire to put it back in.

MK is a lot hotter place than it used to be ... and it has nothing to do with all those babes on their ECVs wearing Goofy hats and chomping on turkey legs like they are zombies and the apocalypse has happened!:ROFLOL:

 

[COProgressFan]

Hmmm. The monorail accident was bad. Did things change? Lawyers got paid and few operational suggestions (opps, I mean OGs) but not much changed in the big picture did it?

My point is rather dull, but even significant events that don't drastically impact the bottom line don't seem to motivate. Is my perspective askew?

Yeah, I was expecting a major shakeup after the monorail accident, property-wide. I know there have been some significant changes to monorail operations, but sadly it doesn't look like there have been wholesale changes across property in terms of staffing, training, and emphasis on safety. Other than (from what CM's have told me) an increase in the beating into CM's heads that "Safe-D begins with me!", which may sound like a cute catch phrase, doesn't really do much in terms of changing the culture of the organization and workplace environment to promote safety.

 

[WDW1974]

I agree. I never understood why people feel if you see issues or negatives with something you are not a true fan and say things like "well just dont go...". Im sorry, I have high expectations for Disney. Why? Because Disney set those high expectations for me. Ignoring obvious problems in no way betters WDW or makes you a better fan.

No, but it does make you the kind of fan WDW Co covets today!

Even better if you are active in social media!

(has anyone ripped Storybook Circus who owns a Lifestyle site?)

 

[Master Yoda]

Just a quick 'correction' ... yes, what you said is true from the reports (no idea how true they are, but that's another story ...) but the bottom line is the bus killed the child.

Oh, and I don't believe he ran into the bus, so much as fell into it. Maybe I'm just being negative because when my bus was unloading at the Contemporary last week, the driver decided to (without warning) lurch the bus ahead another 2-3 feet ... and, yes, someone could have been very seriously injured.

But as for the FW incident ...perhaps, having buses driving so close to roadways with bike riders isn't smart?:shrug:

Two points. Why suggest conspiracy when there is none evident? While technically correct, saying "the bus killed the child" is like blaming the ground for the death of a person who fell from a building.

You have plenty of fully legitimate, 100% factual arguments available to support your opinion yet you still chose to stretch the truth or embellish. You could not even make a correction without doing so. A nickles worth of free advice, stick to the facts. There are more than enough of them to make your point.

 

[COProgressFan]

Just look at photos of the MK from 20 years ago and compare to today. Where there once were huge shade trees and beautiful landscaping, you get sapling and wood chips. I would love to know what TDO has against trees, but except for areas of Frontierland, most of the park has lost its canopy and Disney seems to have no desire to put it back in.

The tree removals borderline on sadism in the summer. MK can be brutal, much more other parks. (I admit DAK can feel like hell on earth, but at least there is shade!) For a moment, I thought the stifling heat eminating from the concrete drove more people into shops ($$) but then I realized that they raised the set points on the a/c in most shops years ago, and its often not much cooler inside than out!

 

[WDW1974]

I feel like this thread got derailed and buried. It belongs in the News and Rumors section. And I hate having to scroll through pages of drivel to get to the meat of what 74 is saying. Can we please get him his own Eddie Sotto-style thread in News and Rumors?

I'll start a petition if it will help.

It was only temporarily derailed ... as to buried, if folks want to find it, then they will.

I doubt the powers here want to allow me my own thread in News and Rumors, although both Eddie and I have one thing in common: neither of us have worked for WDI this century ... but I believe I have experienced far more of the product (most importantly for this site, in FLA) and around the world in that time period.

He's just a much, much, much ... better designer than I could ever hope to be!:wave:

 

[WDW1974]

Two points. Why suggest conspiracy when there is none evident? While technically correct, saying "the bus killed the child" is like blaming the ground for the death of a person who fell from a building.

I am not suggesting conspiracy. I am simply saying we don't know what happened because we weren't there ... and I well know the power TWDC wields politically and with local law enforcement. If you've ever seen someone injured at WDW (and, of course, they try and shoo you away if you do) then you realize that Disney's first priority is risk assessment and damage control well before it is the health of the visitor.

You have plenty of fully legitimate, 100% factual arguments available to support your opinion yet you still chose to stretch the truth or embellish. You could not even make a correction without doing so. A nickles worth of free advice, stick to the facts. There are more than enough of them to make your point.

I am not stretching anything. A bus killed a child. That is fact. Whether the child himself was at fault doesn't change the tragic result.

Now, can we please move on?

Or would you like to blame the CMs for the monorail pilot's death, not WDW for its lax training and overriding safety protocols to move more folks around and avoid whining guests (because the system has become inefficient)?