Spirited Thoughts, News, Observations etc.

OK, hide the women and the children ... most importantly send the fanbois to bed with their plush and tell them to hide under the covers ... waaaay down under them because it's time for some Spirited thoughts, observations, news and anecdotes from a long weekend at The World Maintenance Forgot, yes WDW.

Where to start? With a conclusion? Or should I just work on down?

Should I start with the good ... things like seeing friends, having great weather, appreciating some things that the fan community tends to ignore and seeing EPCOT in its best colors?

Or ... do I focus on everything else? Because all going to WDW did for me this weekend was exceed my already amazingly low expectations for the state of WDW infrastructure and show quality (hey, they did exceed expectations, right?) and get me more excited for my future visits to DLP, possibly BGW, DL ... and, hopefully in the not too distant future, the Asian resorts again too.

Let's start with the basics. Freshness. If you had visited WDW in 2006 and hadn't returned in six years, you would find no appreciable new product in three of four parks.

You would find show quality that already had issues showing more issues than the typical fanboi in therapy. Well, that's if you can actually get to the MK because the crumbling monorail system has to be shut down all day from 11:30 a.m to 6 p.m. to do track work in the midst of one of the busiest times of the year ... imagine paying $500-700 a night for a room at the GF or Poly with monorail convenience touted (wonder what guest recovery they are doing there!) ... but let's assume you find your way there.

Let's start with the stuff the fan community is all lathered up for, namely the Storybook Circus mini-land expansion of Fantasyland. What did I think of it?

Not very much at all.

As usual, the hype was much greater than the product, which can't be viewed in a vacuum in a park that is crumbling and has no wow factor at all anymore.

In the day, Dumbo's primary colors and the red painted construction fences all around come off as garish ... befitting a circus, no doubt ... but Old Man Disney was no more a fan of circuses than he was of amusement parks and piers and the shady elements that all attracted. So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last. And it spins high enough to peek over construction walls and we all know how much that has become en vogue in O-Town of late.

It is a beautiful kinetic piece at night when the lighting is largely coming from the white and red bulbs that rim the queue (likely more of a makeshift deal now until the old Dumbo starts spinning across the way) and the LEDs embedded in the fountains underneath. But it is still Dumbo.

Sort of like the Barnstormer is still the Barnstormer, just missing much in the way of theming. Its prior incarnation had some whimsy, this doesn't. But they weren't getting rid of the only kiddie coaster in the park, so this was a cheap fix. Oh, and thanks to Bob Iger working with a chainsaw, you can now watch Disney buses and CMs driving to/fro work behind the MK as you walk up the queue if you peer left. I will never get what Phil and TDO have against trees, but they certainly do.

Nothing else is open beyond a much nicer train station that is still a train station ... and a set of new restrooms (someone needs to page Talking Head to this thread stat!) What I found amazing is that Disney was too cheap to actually connect these facilities to the park's main water supply, so they are using water from the immediate area that is untreated (or perhaps non-filtered/cleansed is more appropriate) so you have bizarre signs saying the water is 'non potable' (that means you can't drink it for those with limited vocabularies) over toilets. I know Disney's prices are crazy for a Coke, but over the toilet?!? ... Of course, the reason is they have colored the water blue because otherwise it would be a very icky color and folks would constantly be complaining that something isn't right.

Are the details nice? Sure. But they are very basic. I was much more excited by leaf patterns in the walkways around Old Man Island at Dixie Landings 20 years ago than I am by various hoof prints and 'peanuts' embedded in this area.

So much of this area also suffers from having both exposed coaster track (Disney fanbois seem to have issues with this at UNI) and show buildings just sticking out like a Duffy alone on a shelf full of Minnies.

If this is what Disney believes will raise the bar in O-Town ... well, no ... they don't. They understand what they have built and why. This is about capacity ... and NEXT GEN ... and keeping folks from being bored out of their minds by offering something 'new'.

It's in 'soft opening' now, but let's be blunt: they had to get this open and open now. They have so little capacity in this park due to 15 years of taking away and not adding. MK just isn't a very pleasant place right now at all with crowds and walls and lots of attractions that have seen far better days.

Again, it also seems that Ops and WDI simply can't get on the same page no matter what ... Dumbo opens with small plants where every little kid (and plenty of big ones) are going to stand, so the result is the foliage that was there Monday was trampled and mostly dead or dying by Friday. How they miss these basics is beyond me, although I think communication and common sense are both lacking.

Now, what else was 'new' (to me) at MK? Spin the Fanboi? Pin the Tail on Meg? Dole Whip tees (I mean, REALLY?!?!) ... or how about the latest way to hook OCD fanbois and why it is so important to NEXT GEN.

I'll see you all a little later ... like in the next post!

 

[Pitchforkman]

Quoted for truth! :king:

You three are some of my favorite posters

 

[dreamscometrue]

This is not meant to be rude, but these are serious questions for '74, devoy1701, Scuttle, Lee, Martin and anyone else who we on these boards might call sometimes 'negative'.

1. Can you enjoy anything at, for example, MK...or do you just see the issues so that you can't enjoy sitting on Center Street with a Casey's hotdog, watching a parade, riding Space Mountain, etc.?

2. Do you think that your attitude, which I would term 'jaded', comes from just being too close to the running of WDW (like Lee) or just having been around for many, many years?

That 2nd question is being asked because I find myself in that position where I work. I've been around there for more than 20 years, the last 16 full time, and I liked things better 10 years ago. I loved the staff, and we did some amazing things back then. Now, I'm more involved in management (and see leadership issues others don't), personnel has changed and I see problems there too. I simply don't like it as much as I used to.

But, there are 2 issues with this. First of all, I see things in a way that 99.9% of the public doesn't, so most people are oblivious and happy. Secondly, we still have wonderful people and are doing many, many wonderful things...sadly, I don't see them sometimes and have to be reminded of them all by others less connected, and old, than I.

Are you like this with respect to WDW?

Cheers.

(Btw, I just got back from 9 days, had an amazing trip, and saw more good, and fewer issues than I've seen in awhile. :sohappy

 

[Lee]

Speaking only for myself...

1. Can you enjoy anything at, for example, MK...or do you just see the issues so that you can't enjoy sitting on Center Street with a Casey's hotdog, watching a parade, riding Space Mountain, etc.?

Sure! I always have fun in whatever park I am visiting. Especially when hanging out with other "negatives"! (I'm looking at you Martin and '74...:lol Even a less than perfect day at a Disney park is better than a good day anywhere else. I'll be in town for a week in late may and can't wait.

2. Do you think that your attitude, which I would term 'jaded', comes from just being too close to the running of WDW (like Lee) or just having been around for many, many years?

I wouldn't call myself "jaded" at all. I am a fanboy to the core, and would rather visit a Disney park than spend time anywhere else.

My "attitude" comes from visiting and studying the Disney parks for much of the last 40 years. Once upon a time I was bright-eyed and full of pixie dust. Disney could do no wrong, and everything was perfect.

Until one day...it wasn't.
I started to realize that slowly but surely, things were slipping. They were changing, and not for the better. At that point I began to make a point of trying to stay aware of the slippage, and trying to figure out how and why it was happening.
At the same time, I am still able to enjoy all the time I spend in the parks, despite being able to also point out things that could/should be better.

Any of that make sense?:lookaroun

 

[Monty]

Speaking only for myself...


Sure! I always have fun in whatever park I am visiting. Especially when hanging out with other "negatives"! (I'm looking at you Martin and '74...:lol Even a less than perfect day at a Disney park is better than a good day anywhere else. I'll be in town for a week in late may and can't wait.


I wouldn't call myself "jaded" at all. I am a fanboy to the core, and would rather visit a Disney park than spend time anywhere else.

My "attitude" comes from visiting and studying the Disney parks for much of the last 40 years. Once upon a time I was bright-eyed and full of pixie dust. Disney could do no wrong, and everything was perfect.

Until one day...it wasn't.
I started to realize that slowly but surely, things were slipping. They were changing, and not for the better. At that point I began to make a point of trying to stay aware of the slippage, and trying to figure out how and why it was happening.
At the same time, I am still able to enjoy all the time I spend in the parks, despite being able to also point out things that could/should be better.

Any of that make sense?:lookaroun

Absolutely! I've never thought negatively of any of yourself, '74 and Martin for raising issues that you're aware of. I don't necessarily agree that it's as dire as portrayed, but I appreciate hearing it. '74's presentation detracts from the message for me. When he responds directly to me he's usually quite eloquent, if only he could stick to that he'd receive less hassle.

 

[Pitchforkman]

Absolutely! I've never thought negatively of any of yourself, '74 and Martin for raising issues that you're aware of. I don't necessarily agree that it's as dire as portrayed, but I appreciate hearing it. '74's presentation detracts from the message for me. When he responds directly to me he's usually quite eloquent, if only he could stick to that he'd receive less hassle.

Quotes for truth

 

[yellowstone]

WDW1974, I appreciate your post and couldn't agree more.

 

[dreamscometrue]

Speaking only for myself...


Sure! I always have fun in whatever park I am visiting. Especially when hanging out with other "negatives"! (I'm looking at you Martin and '74...:lol Even a less than perfect day at a Disney park is better than a good day anywhere else. I'll be in town for a week in late may and can't wait.


I wouldn't call myself "jaded" at all. I am a fanboy to the core, and would rather visit a Disney park than spend time anywhere else.

My "attitude" comes from visiting and studying the Disney parks for much of the last 40 years. Once upon a time I was bright-eyed and full of pixie dust. Disney could do no wrong, and everything was perfect.

Until one day...it wasn't.
I started to realize that slowly but surely, things were slipping. They were changing, and not for the better. At that point I began to make a point of trying to stay aware of the slippage, and trying to figure out how and why it was happening.
At the same time, I am still able to enjoy all the time I spend in the parks, despite being able to also point out things that could/should be better.

Any of that make sense?:lookaroun

It all makes sense. I am happy that you still enjoy the parks. We just have complete different perspectives, so of course, we see the World differently.

I notice very little wrong, and although I do see minor issues and have some concerns, I simply see, overwhelmingly, so many wonderful attractions and CMs, I can not relate to what some of the people express in terms of concerns. I don't think I'm a naive or a newbie, but I simply head out for a day in the parks and when I return to my resort I realize I've had a blast, met tons of great CM's and found little wrong in terms of the show.

One other question. Do you think that the concerns you have will change for the better as management changes over the next several years, and as we close in on the 50th, in 2021?

 

[WDW1974]

I don't know why I'm doing this :shrug:....

You are talking to a troll. You are wasting time you won't get back at the end of your life to ride more E-Tickets. I'm thinking of just leaving the thread and putting the same points in other threads where you don't have someone spending 24 hours a day waiting to post.

Here's the thing...'74 doesn't bash everything. Not even close. You should hear his praises for the Disneyland resort, HK, Tokyo and Paris. Dude is a fan of the highest order.

Thanks for saying that, bud. But only a fool would think otherwise. Knowing how much I travel and how much is Disney-based and how much I have spent over the years ... ... I want some of it back, so I can go buy my own island like Depp did.

What he bashes is what every true fan should bash, the horrible way WDW in general, and MK in particular, are being managed. In doing so he uses statements of fact (lots of show quality issues) and statements of opinion )didn't like SotMK). He also calls out those who refuse to acknowledge the problems that undeniably exist. It's great to enjoy your trip, we all do, but some objectivity is required in order to be taken seriously.

You can attempt to argue facts if you have evidence that he has stated something incorrect. You can also disagree with his opinion if yours is different.

However, getting riled up, calling him "wrong", etc, is far from helpful to your cause. State your case as best you can, then move on. Hanging around just to argue is the very definition of a "troll".

There are people I don't agree with a lot (like crazy Canadian Monty!:wave ... but I still will respect them and discuss issues with them because they have the capacity to discuss things other than my personality, which most people don't seem to have issues with in the real world (OK, maybe not most ... how about some:drevil

I enjoyed my trip a great deal. But that doesn't mean my criticisms aren't warranted. If anything, I went easy on MK because there are problems everywhere you look in every direction. People who don't notice them or don't care doesn't change the facts one bit.

Having been through this with DL, I've watched the same scenario play out on a much larger scale in O-Town. And that isn't good for ANY guests, even my critics who say they are perfectly content with a Walmart quality product.

 

[WDW1974]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
OK, hide the women and the children ... most importantly send the fanbois to bed with their plush and tell them to hide under the covers ... waaaay down under them because it's time for some Spirited thoughts, observations, news and anecdotes from a long weekend at The World Maintenance Forgot, yes WDW.

Good! Finally a thread that gives me a reason to check this site again.

Yes. It's brought out everyone except old CBOMB ... we have my haters, my fellow minions of evil and Disney destruction, the posters who mean well by telling me to go vanilla even if that is misguided and we have a troll too.

I feel like Stefan on SNL talking about one of his favorite NYC nightspots!


Quote:
Let's start with the basics. Freshness. If you had visited WDW in 2006 and hadn't returned in six years, you would find no appreciable new product in three of four parks.

That underscores something about the audience Disney is targeting: they're after first-timers, DVC-owners, and (I'll avoid the f-word) obsessives. Speaking of, what's the status on that legendary mental health book?

We got 20 pages of posts and not one person has commented on that point ... 2006-2012 ... what exactly is new and fresh at WDW? Very, very little.

I'd love to write that book. I don't think Disney Legal would even come after .... nah, they'd come after me.


Quote:
So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last.

Which isn't saying much since the last one circling the magical asphalt of Fantasyland was a step above the small town carnival.

True, but one of the MAGICal moments for many children and often adults too is taking a spin on Dumbo in the shadows of the castle ... even better when fireworks are taking place.

That quintissential Disney experience can no longer be had at MK because of moving it to the very back of the park. I wonder how this will affect ridership/popularity.


Quote:
It is a beautiful kinetic piece at night when the lighting is largely coming from the white and red bulbs that rim the queue (likely more of a makeshift deal now until the old Dumbo starts spinning across the way) and the LEDs embedded in the fountains underneath. But it is still Dumbo.

That's cool, although I don't find myself compelled to visit MK just to see new beautiful kinetic sculptures. Maybe it's just me, but a new nighttime parade or fireworks show or ground-breaking E-ticket would be more interesting.

Neither do I. But I was attempting to present an accurate critique ... and if you want new night parades, pyro or ground-breaking E-Tix than you can't go to the MK because that isn't the place for them.



Quote:
Sort of like the Barnstormer is still the Barnstormer, just missing much in the way of theming. Its prior incarnation had some whimsy, this doesn't.

That's being generous about the old one. I always thought Gadget's Go-Coaster looked interesting and fun, even if both rides are laughably short. Kid coaster or not, 30 seconds isn't long enough for the magical fun to begin.

So now I'm being too generous with my praise?!? Some Spirits just can't win.:ROFLOL:

I did ride Gadget's at DL in December for the first time in years and it is far better than Barnstormer just in terms of theming and sense of place. But they both are short kiddie coasters ... much like the new Mine Train coaster will be but it will have a few show scenes.


Quote:
But they weren't getting rid of the only kiddie coaster in the park, so this was a cheap fix. Oh, and thanks to Bob Iger working with a chainsaw, you can now watch Disney buses and CMs driving to/fro work behind the MK as you walk up the queue if you peer left.

Sorta makes you wonder what Walter Elias meant when he said WDW would have the blessing of size. What's the use of size if the parks can't hide outside world?

We know what he meant. That TWDC would have enough land to build all the hotels, timeshares, homes and mini-mansions that greedy execs and MBAs could imagine.

Personally, I love being able to see the Contemporary from Liberty Square, so why not see Carmen from Frontierland Food and Beverage rushing home from work in her 1999 Corolla?


Quote:
Nothing else is open beyond a much nicer train station that is still a train station ... and a set of new restrooms (someone needs to page Talking Head to this thread stat!)

Sounds like an update is needed for the Mickey's Magical Restrooms Blog. I should've gotten into documenting the construction walls, because I would've been a lot busier these days.

Yes, you are way behind the times ... I'm sure Jeff Lange already has a DVD on sale!


Quote:
What I found amazing is that Disney was too cheap to actually connect these facilities to the park's main water supply, so they are using water from the immediate area that is untreated (or perhaps non-filtered/cleansed is more appropriate) so you have bizarre signs saying the water is 'non potable' (that means you can't drink it for those with limited vocabularies) over toilets. I know Disney's prices are crazy for a Coke, but over the toilet?!?

Reminds me of the Brawny-sponsored instructions on how to wash your hands that you'll find in all the restrooms.

Well, how many times have you watched in disgust as someone hasn't washed their hands at WDW. Perhaps, they just needed to know how? Now, Disney has helped hygiene with those signs!



Quote:
So much of this area also suffers from having both exposed coaster track (Disney fanbois seem to have issues with this at UNI) and show buildings just sticking out like a Duffy alone on a shelf full of Minnies.

Funny how the double standard works. It's all in how you wear your pixie dust glasses--glued to your face or sliding down your nose so you can peek over the top.

Barnstormer is UGLY no matter how you view it. Lots of exposed track, very little scenery etc.


Quote:
Again, it also seems that Ops and WDI simply can't get on the same page no matter what ... Dumbo opens with small plants where every little kid (and plenty of big ones) are going to stand, so the result is the foliage that was there Monday was trampled and mostly dead or dying by Friday. How they miss these basics is beyond me, although I think communication and common sense are both lacking.

The Tigger bounce pads, anyone?

I regret never having a chance to bounce on them ... although a friend taught me a neat trick for bouncing Aladdin's Magic Carpets more than a night with Jasmine!:ROFLOL:

Not sure why this thread was moved from News and Rumors, because anytime Spirit gives a rundown of his resort observations, I consider it first-rate news (and entertainment).

Thanks. I don't know either. I don't run the place. Current observation threads generally are allowed on News and Rumors because you are talking about current events ... but soon I'll be on my way to Europe and people will have plenty of time to cleanse from my Spirited presence.

 

[WDW1974]

I know there are a lot of DLR APs who go to the parks weekly. I imagine there are far fewer WDW APs who do the same thing (though that's only a guess). Are there actually WDW APs who will go to the parks weekly to play these games and collect these trading cards?

There is a sub-culture of people with no lives (and, yes, that IS what they are) who are at the MK 4-6 days a week. And you better believe they are getting their daily allotment of five cards a day!

(Side note: have people not learned from the Beanie Baby, Disney pin-trading, and Vinylmation fads that these "collectable" things turn out to be worth pennies when it's all said and done? These trading cards will be the same way.)

Of course they will ... collectables are a very fickle investment. These cards will be the same deal, but now when they are HOT if you live in O-town and visit the park 4-6 days a week, you can make some $$$ on eBay.

Hasn't this been the rationale for Fastpass, too? That instead of standing in queues, guests can be spending money on food and merch?

It's especially disturbing that TDO/WDPR/WDI/management think these kinds of additions can replace building major attractions like in the past. I like the idea of the park having smaller, unheralded attractions -- Tiki, Tom Sawyer Island, the Disney Gallery and the Primeval Diorama at DL would all be examples. Not everything has to be an E-ticket, obviously. But this Sorcerers game doesn't seem designed to be a smaller, quiet diversion, with the game spread across the park and these queues sprouting up where people are clustered around the video screens. But at the same time the attraction doesn't sound spectacular enough to warrant its intrusion in the park.

I'm also wondering how people are going to enjoy playing this game in summer when it's 1:00 PM, you're on the verge of sunstroke, and you're waiting in line to watch the TV screen talk to you. I guess people will just play the game casually as they experience other attractions in the area? Because going from stop to stop, playing the game all at once, and crisscrossing the park wouldn't be my idea of fun in the summer heat.

Yeah, I already was feeling this way standing in the sun behind maybe six players at a screen on the side of HoP. It was beating down on me and I was wondering just how much fun this really could be (answer: not much) but hey, I'll trade you a Mowgli and a Simba for a Mr. Toad!:drevil::king:

 

[WDW1974]

This is not meant to be rude, but these are serious questions for '74, devoy1701, Scuttle, Lee, Martin and anyone else who we on these boards might call sometimes 'negative'.

I am not taking the questions as rude, but I do object to labeling myself and Lee and Martin (who I know personally as well) as 'negative' ... you want to know the best word to describe us?

How about honest. ... Or realistic.

1. Can you enjoy anything at, for example, MK...or do you just see the issues so that you can't enjoy sitting on Center Street with a Casey's hotdog, watching a parade, riding Space Mountain, etc.?

If I couldn't enjoy anything, then I wouldn't go. I had a wonderful time sitting at the Tomorrowland Terrace having lunch (they actually have a terrific new menu) and watching the people go by on Main Street toward the castle.

And I do love the newish gourmet dogs at Casey's (although they are about $2 too much) ... but I can't really enjoy the MK parades ... and Space Mountain is just plain painful now.

2. Do you think that your attitude, which I would term 'jaded', comes from just being too close to the running of WDW (like Lee) or just having been around for many, many years?

I wouldn't term my 'tude as jaded. Again, it's realistic and honest. It doesn't come from anything but a long history of visiting WDW (and the other resorts) and many other places, as well as knowledge as to how the place is run and why it is.

No hidden agendas here. I never wanted to be an Imagineer. I'm not a disgruntled ex-CM.

That 2nd question is being asked because I find myself in that position where I work. I've been around there for more than 20 years, the last 16 full time, and I liked things better 10 years ago. I loved the staff, and we did some amazing things back then. Now, I'm more involved in management (and see leadership issues others don't), personnel has changed and I see problems there too. I simply don't like it as much as I used to.

But, there are 2 issues with this. First of all, I see things in a way that 99.9% of the public doesn't, so most people are oblivious and happy. Secondly, we still have wonderful people and are doing many, many wonderful things...sadly, I don't see them sometimes and have to be reminded of them all by others less connected, and old, than I.

Are you like this with respect to WDW?

I don't really think so because I believe that so many people who aren't Disney nuts like us DO see many of the same issues.

For instance, you may have been a first-timer at EPCOT on Friday when I was there, if you rode SSE and saw three 'dead' AAs in the Renaissance
scene, you had to know that 'they aren't working and are supposed to be' ... if you were a first-timer and you were on Small World and simply looked at the queue walls/doors etc, you couldn't not see mold, wood rot and large chunks of wall paint that had been torn away and then repainted.

You really have to have self-designed blinders on to not see what's wrong at WDW. At this point, there's so much, it's a World-wide blight.

(Btw, I just got back from 9 days, had an amazing trip, and saw more good, and fewer issues than I've seen in awhile. :sohappy

Glad you enjoyed the trip, but the issues are there ... and widespread.

 

[WDW1974]

Absolutely! I've never thought negatively of any of yourself, '74 and Martin for raising issues that you're aware of. I don't necessarily agree that it's as dire as portrayed, but I appreciate hearing it. '74's presentation detracts from the message for me. When he responds directly to me he's usually quite eloquent, if only he could stick to that he'd receive less hassle.

Monty, I really believe things are more dire than I state here. I visited with some CM friends when I was at da World and they point out things to me that I am overlooking because they aren't as obvious as say ... the burning Rome scene not smelling of fire on SSE ... or the angler fish stuck dead in Nemo etc. It's mindboggling how a resort that build a rep on its amazing maintainance is in such a state of utter disrepair almost across the board.

Main Street is literally rotting away. That's why you see huge scrims and work ... and they haven't even started on the insides (the confectionary is a disaster for example ... a place that creates and serves food that has gone large periods of time with no hot water).

It truly is depressing that WDW management is so utterly inept and that they continue to run the resort into the ground. It's worse that fans stand up and justify it (although living in a country where people protest against things that would help them, I'm used to it!)

I can handle the heat, believe me ...

Now, I'm being nice here and not gonna ask you if you are out of your mind for staying at the GF! Just gonna assume you stayed out in the cold too long!:lol:

 

[HMF]

Having been through this with DL, I've watched the same scenario play out on a much larger scale in O-Town. And that isn't good for ANY guests, even my critics who say they are perfectly content with a Walmart quality product.

Have we reached Pressler/Harris bad yet? and I mean that honestly.

 

[Lee]

Have we reached Pressler/Harris bad yet? and I mean that honestly.

Getting damn close.

 

[Monty]

Now, I'm being nice here and not gonna ask you if you are out of your mind for staying at the GF! Just gonna assume you stayed out in the cold too long!:lol:

:lol:

I decided a number of years ago to stay at every resort for at least a week each, sort of a bucket list. I've stayed everywhere I wanted to (except CBR, CSR and the DVC resorts) other than Boardwalk and GF. So GF this summer and BW next, then I'll decide which I prefer and stay there in future. So far, my preferences are Pop for quick, cheap trips, POFQ for most other trips and Beach Club when I feel like splurging (which may be fairly often).

To answer the rest: Yes, I'm insane, but have been for many years. And unfortunately, yes I stayed out in the cold too long... The reason I'm a multilateral amputee was extreme, traumatic frostbite suffered in 1991. :shrug: If we ever finally meet up in the parks I'll share the whole story... :animwink:

 

[devoy1701]

This is not meant to be rude, but these are serious questions for '74, devoy1701, Scuttle, Lee, Martin and anyone else who we on these boards might call sometimes 'negative'.

1. Can you enjoy anything at, for example, MK...or do you just see the issues so that you can't enjoy sitting on Center Street with a Casey's hotdog, watching a parade, riding Space Mountain, etc.?

Yes. Very much so. DHS is my favorite park but I can still very much enjoy my day at MK. It's been over a year since we've had passes, but every once in a while my fiance and I wish we could grab a hotdog from Casey's and watch people walking. Our favorite bench is on the walkway from the Hub over to Adventureland.

And for the record Space Mountain is my favorite ride at MK, if anyone felt like going through my old posts, you would find me saying somewhere that there is nothing like sitting front row on that ride...the single file setup makes you feel like you're in a world (or space) alone. Amazing experience (though I preferred it without the music that comes in and out of focus as you're zooming by! :lol: :lookaroun

2. Do you think that your attitude, which I would term 'jaded', comes from just being too close to the running of WDW (like Lee) or just having been around for many, many years?

I think I would have to answer this as yes and no, and would go farther to say that those who see absolutely no issue with the parks today are also, in fact, jaded with the idea that it is Walt Disney World...a magical place unlike any other and even on the worst day with the worst maintenance it's better than anything else.

I spent almost 2 years researching Walt Disney, the Disney Company, the finances of the company, the Imagineering way, the leadership styles of past and present leaders of the company, the Disney theme park design, immersing myself in the films, documentaries, books, books, and more books about how it was, what was to be, and what never became, etc while writing my thesis and developing a new theory on corporate leadership. During that time I was visiting WDW almost weekly, paying attention to the details that were being explained in what I was reading and watching. Man it was such an exciting change to see the parks in a whole new light, to go from casual park guest and fan to being able to understand the detail behind everything that was around me. I also made my first trip to Disneyland (how could I write a thesis where my primary exemplar was Walt Disney and not visit his theme park??). I think that trip was what sealed the deal for me on starting to see things weren't quite right at WDW. It was night and day doing a back-to-back visit to DL and WDW in 2009.

When you've taken a back to back trip like that and have read so much about the quality and standards that Walt had for everything he did, it's very easy to see that those principles that he created the company on (and Disneyland) are no longer the primary means of operating WDW. Compliment that with examples from people like Lee and Martin who somehow know exactly how every attraction looked and operated according to the specs and down to the very last detail...and even by reading imagineering books that go into detail on all of the effects...you start looking forward to spotting something that you've never noticed before only to find out that the reason you never noticed it is because it hasn't been working for a year. :shrug: Then of course I've had some very spirited conversations with '74 who is all but willing to share his insight and information on the company past and present and how it got to be where it is today if you just ask him. All of the above goes into me forming my opinion on the current state of the parks.

There is so much to say on this subject, it's more of a dinner conversation I guess. If your ever in the area we could get together and chat more about it (i'm always up for a good discussion!).

But to sum up...I've said it many times, I've enjoyed practically each and every day I've ever spent at WDW and will continue to do so on my next visit. Do I notice broken effects, missing trees, cut corners, peeling paint...sure (but I'm a detail oriented person anyway). Does it keep me from having a great time? No, absolutely not.

 

[pax_65]

it's very easy to see that those principles that he created the company on (and Disneyland) are no longer the primary means of operating WDW.

I completely agree. I don't really think this is something that can even be debated, except to point out that there are plenty of individual cast members who still love Walt and his vision.

I guess the debate is whether the current state of the parks is acceptable or not. For me, having gone to the parks almost every year for the past 20 years or so, I say absolutely not.

For someone who maybe has only been to the parks in the past few years, they may still think the parks are great (which they are, just not nearly as great as they were).

I almost feel this situation where "the guest doesn't know any better" is something management recognizes and almost counts on when they make cost-cutting decisions.

 

[COProgressFan]

Quote:
So, we have a new spinner that is prettier than the last.

True, but one of the MAGICal moments for many children and often adults too is taking a spin on Dumbo in the shadows of the castle ... even better when fireworks are taking place.

That quintissential Disney experience can no longer be had at MK because of moving it to the very back of the park. I wonder how this will affect ridership/popularity.

I didn't really notice anyone else mention this, but I'm glad you brought it up. There is something (dare I say) "magical" about spinning around on Dumbo, right next to the castle. An evening ride during the fireworks is a memorable experience. That said, will it be quite as magical in the new land? While spinning on the new Dumbo, you'll get to see gaudy circus tents, a hideous green show building in plain view, and enjoy the wafting scent of exhaust from the speedway. I'm not sure the impact will be the same.

Personally, I love being able to see the Contemporary from Liberty Square, so why not see Carmen from Frontierland Food and Beverage rushing home from work in her 1999 Corolla?

:ROFLOL: It's funny, but it's also kind of sad. It amazes me how Disneyland is in the middle of small city, with Tomorrowland just feet from Harbor Blvd., and the whole park sandwiched next to I-5. But you'd never know it. Splash Mountain sits mere feet from the Haunted Mansion, but with some smart landscaping, it doesn't feel that way.

Yet, despite the massive acreage of WDW, you can clearly see the Contemporary from Liberty Square and now apparently see the very north end of World Drive from the Barnstormer queue. Not to mention the little details such as not replacing trees near the Haunted Mansion so the show building can be seen, and little effort made to hide the Tomorrowland manager parking lot from the train.

And if I'm ranting about landscaping, might I add how "impressive" :brick: the mulch and small leafy bushes are in the new area. Apparently the horticulture team must have all be dispatched to Epcot this month.

 

[erasure fan1]

I think I would have to answer this as yes and no, and would go farther to say that those who see absolutely no issue with the parks today are also, in fact, jaded with the idea that it is Walt Disney World...a magical place unlike any other and even on the worst day with the worst maintenance it's better than anything else.

I agree. I never understood why people feel if you see issues or negatives with something you are not a true fan and say things like "well just dont go...". Im sorry, I have high expectations for Disney. Why? Because Disney set those high expectations for me. Ignoring obvious problems in no way betters WDW or makes you a better fan.

 

[Scuttle]

This is not meant to be rude, but these are serious questions for '74, devoy1701, Scuttle, Lee, Martin and anyone else who we on these boards might call sometimes 'negative'.

1. Can you enjoy anything at, for example, MK...or do you just see the issues so that you can't enjoy sitting on Center Street with a Casey's hotdog, watching a parade, riding Space Mountain, etc.?

2. Do you think that your attitude, which I would term 'jaded', comes from just being too close to the running of WDW (like Lee) or just having been around for many, many years?

That 2nd question is being asked because I find myself in that position where I work. I've been around there for more than 20 years, the last 16 full time, and I liked things better 10 years ago. I loved the staff, and we did some amazing things back then. Now, I'm more involved in management (and see leadership issues others don't), personnel has changed and I see problems there too. I simply don't like it as much as I used to.

But, there are 2 issues with this. First of all, I see things in a way that 99.9% of the public doesn't, so most people are oblivious and happy. Secondly, we still have wonderful people and are doing many, many wonderful things...sadly, I don't see them sometimes and have to be reminded of them all by others less connected, and old, than I.

Are you like this with respect to WDW?

Cheers.

(Btw, I just got back from 9 days, had an amazing trip, and saw more good, and fewer issues than I've seen in awhile. :sohappy

As Lee said I can only speak for myself. I was born and raised in O-town and have been here almost 30 years. Having been raised in a Disney family and going to the parks quite frequently I can tell you that I have slowly seen the decline of WDW. It seems to have been mostly in the past 10 years or so which would make sense since I am sure they scaled back a lot maintenance after 9-11. I LOVE WDW with a passion and will continue to go there for the rest of my life. I enjoy every day trip or resort trip I have ever made. But when you see this beloved prestine place starting to fall apart what's wrong with wanting to vent about it and try to open others eyes about it? Like 74 said we are realistic and honest. I'm not sure you would call us jaded, but we are just concerned for this place we LOVE and how it falls short of every Disney standard that is applied across the globe. I mean it's neverending at WDW between the Monorail system to Splash to Everest to Small World to the GF popcorn lights and everything in between (and trust me there is a lot in between) I think it just makes us sick because we remember WDW in the 80's and 90's when show quality and maintenance were actually applied.