Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

HMF

Well-Known Member
Ok, I'll get off my rant, but people, enjoy WDW for what it is, and realize that first and foremost it is a business, so things might not be how you want, but I'll take Disney over just about any other resort area around.
This is one of my favorite arguments from the DOM's It's a business so it can do whatever it wants even cheat it's customers and produce a poor product at the micro-level or it sould be above laws and ethics on a macro-level. Whether or not people want to believe it or not the market is not always right.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Now that you say this, I wonder if somewhere Disney is hoping Walt Disney World is "too big to fail." Would Disney be so bold to have the Reedy Creek Improvement District seek state or federal aid with their infrastructure?
It will be a sad day if WDW sinks low enough to pull a GM or AIG.
 

gwhb75

Well-Known Member
Yes, it's a business, I get that. But the bottom line is this... until people stop going, there is really no reason for Disney to change. Think about it...They can charge you $X more for a product or service that, in some eyes, is inferior to the product or service was offered several years ago, and consumption of that product or service stays the same (or even increases) over the level it was at when the product or service was better. So while it is true that a business can't ignore its customers, the thing people need to remember is that as members of a Disney forum, we are not typical customers (in terms of how we view Disney vs how a once every few years visitor views Disney).

I don't think it's true that Disney isn't doing anything new. While some may be underwhelmed by things like new Fantasyland (i.e. no big E ticket attraction), Next-Gen (including fastpass +, etc), Test Track 2.0, etc, these things are all steps Disney is doing to try and keep up.

But the key thing is...if you want a company to change, stop consuming its product or service. Do that, and they will be forced to change.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Very valid and true points g2hb75, the thing is with this industry, it is a consant experiment into how much you can get away with and TDO is really pushing those boundries consistantly with pricing and how they consume money but are tightening the belt in other areas. The thing is with the industry is once you cross that line it hits hard and fast. You reach a large part of the market's breaking point.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Veering dangerously off topic but from today's O'Sentinel - Jason Garcia:

Disney at center of state-subsidized plan to draw pro-soccer fans here.

Yup, one thing Disney is savvy at is.. trying to get others to pay bills for them. This isn't the first time they've tried to wrangle public funds for ventures that would benefit Disney almost disproportionately vs anyone else... and falls right into their traditional mindset of corporate sponsors funding things in the theme parks directly.

Here's another OS article on this topic from Oct...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...2_1_pixie-dust-disney-property-happiest-place

But getting subsidies I would consider a long way off from the postulation posed here of looking for a financial bailout by letting things slide. RCID would have to issue bonds long before other regions would prop it up. And examples like this Soccer one.. probably came from funds that were bound to what they can be used for (tourism, etc) and if so could not be used for general fund purposes. It's a complaint you hear often in the recent downturn.. but its not uncommon due to taxes or funds being setup with specific purposes, and hence, specific limitations.. on where the collected money can be spent.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
But the key thing is...if you want a company to change, stop consuming its product or service. Do that, and they will be forced to change.
To a large degree, people have stopped consuming WDW’s product. TDO has been dealing with underperforming financials for several years. Attendance is down 2 out of the last 3 years, room occupancy is down to 78%. These are ominous trends. It’s probably the major reason Burbank is unhappy with TDO; WDW is not meeting expectations.

When faced with such challenges, companies with innovation-based management try to solve the problem with innovative solutions. Companies with finance-based management try to solve the problem with financial solutions. It’s a case of “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

Walt Disney was an innovator. His solutions involved creating something new, something consumers wanted, “game changers”. New animation and film technics, Mickey Mouse, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Mary Poppins, and Disneyland are examples of Walt’s skills as an innovator. Walt used money as a tool to build assets. Consider Walt’s words:
I've always been bored with just making money. I've wanted to do things, I wanted to build things. Get something going. People look at me in different ways. Some of them say, 'The guy has no regard for money.' That is not true. I have had regard for money. But I'm not like some people who worship money as something you've got to have piled up in a big pile somewhere. I've only thought of money in one way, and that is to do something with it, you see? I don't think there is a thing that I own that I will ever get the benefit of, except through doing things with it.
Walt’s and Roy’s immediate successors inherited Walt’s philosophy, even if they didn’t have Walt’s talent. Later, during the Eisner/Wells years, both men new little about theme parks and generally let Walt’s minions continue to run the parks as they had learned from Walt and Roy. From a theme park perspective, Eisner’s greatest contribution in his first decade as CEO was to see WDW as a huge financial opportunity through increased prices and physical expansion. Insiders suggest Eisner wanted to be thought of as the next Walt Disney, even if he had personality flaws that ultimately lead to his (and the theme parks’) downfall. (Until recently, DLR faced many of the same issues WDW faces today, largely because of Eisner’s obsession with cutting costs that adversely impacted quality.) Love him or hate him, Eisner grew WDW and DLR.

Iger has no similar aspirations. He seems focused on growing Disney through acquisition, showing a more finance-based background. He didn’t create the Pixar, Marvel, or Lucas Films properties, he bought them. From a fan’s perspective, there was no innovation, no new product, only a change in the name of who ultimately receives the profits.

Perhaps Eisner’s greatest ‘sin’ was to replace Walt’s innovation-based minions with more finance-based minions. The problem is Disney's core business is not finance-based; it’s innovation-based. Disney's core segments include film, TV, and theme parks; industries where creativity and imagination matter more than numerical analysis. It doesn’t matter how much or little is spent to produce a movie. If it has mass appeal it’s going to be successful no matter what the budget.

In WDW’s case, TDO uses assets as tools to build money. TDO tries to leverage the existing WDW property to generate revenue. They look to squeeze pennies out of existing products rather than produce new products. They don’t focus on creating; they focus on money. It’s the complete opposite of Walt Disney’s approach.

TDO is finance-based and so their solutions are finance-based, products of the modern MBA. They tried the more traditional approach through attractions such as Soarin’, Expedition Everest, and Toy Story Mania. Although popular, all three did not meet expectations. EE helped turn DAK into WDW’s third most popular park but mostly because DHS was comparatively weak. Despite its addition, most people still treat DAK like a half-day park. Soarin’ and TSM, although well-received, had no appreciable effect on attendance.

Rather than trying to improve their product further, something I’m not sure TDO knows how to do, they’ve instead focused on finance-based solutions. That’s why WDW’s most recent “innovations” have been “free dining”, room discounts, DDP, more DVC, more restaurants, more retail, and higher ticket prices. These are finance-based solutions used to improve WDW’s numbers. Don’t buy into the hype you are going to hear emanating from Disney. NextGen is another finance-based solution to WDW’s continued underperformance.

There are those in Burbank who want TDO to adopt a more traditional innovation-based approach to WDW’s problems but, if what we hear is true, TDO is resistant. For consumers, it means TDO will continue to focus primarily on methods to squeeze more money out of its existing customer base rather than provide new experiences to expand its customer base. There’s a reason so many adults complain that WDW has been turned into a kiddie park; because it has. It was not always intended to be this way. Again, consider Walt Disney’s words:
The idea of Disneyland is a simple one. It will be a place for people to find happiness and knowledge.

It will be a place for parents and children to share pleasant times in one another's company: a place for teachers and pupils to discover greater ways of understanding and education. Here the older generation can recapture the nostalgia of days gone by, and the younger generation can savior the challenge of the future. Here will be the wonders of Nature and Man for all to see and understand.
And since I’ve quoted Walt so much, I’ll leave you with my favorite Walt quote:
The park means a lot to me. It's something that will never be finished, something I can keep developing, keep 'plussing' and adding to. It's alive. It will be a live, breathing thing that will need changes. When you wrap up a picture and turn it over to Technicolor, you're through. Snow White is a dead issue with me. I just finished up a live-action picture, wrapped it up a few weeks ago. It's gone. I can't touch it. There are things in it I don't like, but I can't do anything about it. I want something live, something that would grow. The park is that. Not only can I add things, but even the trees will keep growing. The thing will get more beautiful year after year. And it will get better as I find out what the public likes. I can't do that with a picture; it's finished and unchangeable before I find out whether the public likes it or not.
If only TDO thought like Walt.

Merry Christmas and God bless.
 

articos

Well-Known Member
To a large degree, people have stopped consuming WDW’s product. TDO has been dealing with underperforming financials for several years. Attendance is down 2 out of the last 3 years, room occupancy is down to 78%. These are ominous trends. It’s probably the major reason Burbank is unhappy with TDO; WDW is not meeting expectations.

When faced with such challenges, companies with innovation-based management try to solve the problem with innovative solutions. Companies with finance-based management try to solve the problem with financial solutions. It’s a case of “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

Walt Disney was an innovator. His solutions involved creating something new, something consumers wanted, “game changers”. New animation and film technics, Mickey Mouse, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Mary Poppins, and Disneyland are examples of Walt’s skills as an innovator. Walt used money as a tool to build. Consider Walt’s words:

Walt’s and Roy’s immediate successors inherited Walt’s philosophy, even if they didn’t have Walt’s talent. Later, during the Eisner/Wells years, both men new little about theme parks and generally let Walt’s minions continue to run the parks as they had learned from Walt and Roy. Eisner’s greatest contribution in his first decade as CEO was to see WDW as a huge financial opportunity through increased prices and physical expansion. Insiders suggest Eisner wanted to be thought of as the next Walt Disney, even if he had personality flaws that ultimately lead to his (and the theme parks’) downfall. (Until recently, DLR faced many of the same issues WDW faces today, largely because of Eisner’s obsession with cutting costs that adversely impacted quality.) Love him or hate him, Eisner grew WDW and DLR.

Iger has no similar aspirations. He seems more focused on growing Disney through acquisition, showing a more finance-based background. He didn’t create the Pixar, Marvel, or Lucas Films properties, he bought them. From a fan’s perspective, there was no innovation, no new product, only a change in the name of who ultimately receives the net proceeds.

Perhaps Eisner’s greatest ‘evil’ was to replace Walt’s innovation-based minions with more finance-based minions. The problem is Disney's core business is not finance-based; it’s innovation-based. Disney's core segments include film, TV, and theme parks; industries where creativity and imagination matter more than numerical analysis. It doesn’t matter how much or little you spend to produce a movie. If it has mass appeal it’s going to be successful no matter what the budget.

In WDW’s case, TDO uses assets as tools to build money. TDO tries to leverage the existing WDW property to generate revenue. They look to squeeze pennies out of existing products rather than produce new products. They don’t focus on creating; they focus on money. It’s the complete opposite of Walt Disney’s approach.

TDO is finance-based and so their solutions are finance-based, products of the modern MBA. They tried the more traditional approach through attractions such as Soarin’, Expedition Everest, and Toy Story Mania. Although popular, all three did not meet expectations. EE helped turn DAK into WDW’s third most popular park but mostly because DHS was comparatively weak. Despite its addition, most people still treat DAK like a half-day park. Soarin’ and TSM, although well-received, had no appreciable effect on attendance.

Rather than trying to improve their product further, something I’m not sure TDO knows how to do, they’ve instead focused on finance-based solutions. That’s why WDW’s most recent “innovations” have been “free dining”, room discounts, DDP, more DVC, more restaurants, more retail, and higher ticket prices. These are finance-based solutions used to improve WDW’s numbers. Don’t buy into the hype you are going to hear emanating from Disney. NextGen is another finance-based solution to WDW’s continued underperformance.

There are those in Burbank who want TDO to adopt a more traditional innovation-based approach to WDW’s problems but, if what we hear is true, TDO is resistant. For consumers, it means TDO will continue to focus primarily on methods to squeeze more money out of its existing customer base rather than provide new experiences to expand its customer base. There’s a reason so many adults complain that WDW has been turned into a kiddie park; because it has. It was not always intended to be this way. Again, consider Walt Disney’s words:

And since I’ve quoted Walt so much, I’ll leave you with my favorite Walt quote:

If only TDO thought like Walt.

Merry Christmas and God bless.
You, my friend...get it.

If only they did.
 

articos

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to add that I hope you were able to get a good luck at the Progress City model on the PeopleMover. We got stuck there for about ten minutes and had a chance to really soak in the fitting/ironic amount of neglect this very simple piece of WDW history has. Whole thing is covered in a layer of dust ala Mansion, wallpaper peeling off, Hot Wheel toy cars out of scale, broken structures, and knocked over figures. If this isn't the biggest indication to fanboys that TDO just doesn't get it, the model that arguably sparked Uncle Walt to break ground in Florida, well I don't know what is.
There is a team that would love to get their hands on that model, who are quite aware of the significance. There is a question of 'ownership' within the company on who needs to budget and give permission to do it.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Yes, it's a business, I get that. But the bottom line is this... until people stop going, there is really no reason for Disney to change. Think about it...They can charge you $X more for a product or service that, in some eyes, is inferior to the product or service was offered several years ago, and consumption of that product or service stays the same (or even increases) over the level it was at when the product or service was better. So while it is true that a business can't ignore its customers, the thing people need to remember is that as members of a Disney forum, we are not typical customers (in terms of how we view Disney vs how a once every few years visitor views Disney).

I don't think it's true that Disney isn't doing anything new. While some may be underwhelmed by things like new Fantasyland (i.e. no big E ticket attraction), Next-Gen (including fastpass +, etc), Test Track 2.0, etc, these things are all steps Disney is doing to try and keep up.

But the key thing is...if you want a company to change, stop consuming its product or service. Do that, and they will be forced to change.

What your saying is so true. There is no such thing as overcharging in the entertainment venue such as Disney. The value of that venue is whatever the public is willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter at all what you got 20 years ago for whatever price you paid. That is history and is of no relevance to today. It only has an affect on those that cannot remove themselves from the past and see that it no longer exists.

Overall, Disney still provides a degree of excellence that the public is willing to pay for and all the whining and beating of chests will not change anything until the public, as a whole, says, woo...that's to rich for my blood. No one will ever replace Walt Disney, but for a Theme Park to have grown to that degree since his death has to have some bearing over and above living on his legacy. We are three generations beyond his legacy, it is no longer an influence. It is what people see and acknowledge today, not what it was in 1966. Reputation, yes. But reputation will only go so far. If someone goes there based on Walt Disney's reputation and don't like what they see, they will not return. Simple, economic and social rules.

Will they at some point slip enough to fall away from being the place that all others are trying (sometimes successfully) to better? Yes, there is a good chance of that happening. They have lost some business to Universal, but, it isn't necessarily because anyone thinks that Uni is better, it is because Uni has raised their standards to a point where they also provide quality entertainment and we want that as well as Disney. Disney was the only serious game in town for a long time, they set the bar and, as free enterprise is supposed to work, others have attempted to raise the bar. I don't see Disney as going down, I see others as raising up to and in some cases above it.
 

alphac2005

Well-Known Member
Political suicide

Too many already think Disney gets too much and doesn't give enough back to the state

Great point. In recent years, Disney has "given" to the Central Florida community, but it still remains to be lackluster. I remember quite vividly when we lived in Orlando late 90's through '05 and how the community was always disappointed with the fact that Disney gave so little to the community in terms of community investment, charity, etc. Yet, the company was always looking for state and local government handouts including for the majorly costly things like highway access. The counterpoint to this was always the notion of not complaining because Disney "provided" so many jobs to the community, but over time, people woke up to the fact that a notion like that is ridiculous. Low paying jobs and milking the tax payer for all types of projects, the company could at least do some decent charity in the community.

In Disney's PR offensive the past few years, they've given more in the community (although many will argue it's still far too low and a farce for good PR... ahem) in an effort to show that the care....[INSERT BLANK LOOK HERE]. They've tried to add to the company's marketing in Central Florida with tying into the Orlando Magic and being a part of their top 8 sponsors.... BUT, I love when you see them advertise at the Magic games hawking the DISNEY annual pass. C'mon, it's ORLANDO. Can't you sell a WALT DISNEY WORLD annual pass? Ugh. When I see them sponsor in So. Cal., they actually sell them as Disneyland Resort AP's not DISNEY PARKS.
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
They have lost some business to Universal, but, it isn't necessarily because anyone thinks that Uni is better, it is because Uni has raised their standards to a point where they also provide quality entertainment and we want that as well as Disney. Disney was the only serious game in town for a long time, they set the bar and, as free enterprise is supposed to work, others have attempted to raise the bar. I don't see Disney as going down, I see others as raising up to and in some cases above it.

You're generally correct. However, Disney HAS gone down, it's not just a matter of others raising their game. Whether or not they choose to improve the guest experience to past levels remains to be seen. One good starting point would be to make EPCOT a spectacular park to visit over the holidays again.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
You're generally correct. However, Disney HAS gone down, it's not just a matter of others raising their game. Whether or not they choose to improve the guest experience to past levels remains to be seen. One good starting point would be to make EPCOT a spectacular park to visit over the holidays again.

On Epcot we can certainly agree. That place needs more love and it needs it quickly!
 

thehowiet

Wilson King of Prussia
Although I agree with you in principle, it should be considered that the time you are remembering was a much newer park. Like a new car, up to a point, maintenance is almost non-existent. That parks were not as plentiful or require as much manpower to keep them in shape.

Disneyland is a much older car and seems to be in much better shape now. Obviously for a time there were issues, but things really turned around and that old car in Anaheim is in better shape than that newer car down in Florida.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Disneyland is a much older car and seems to be in much better shape now. Obviously for a time there were issues, but things really turned around and that old car in Anaheim is in better shape than that newer car down in Florida.

Sometimes that a matter of opinion. The last time I was in Disneyland was toward the middle of the 50th Anniversary. The boards were screaming about what great shape the park was in, and yet, I noticed 3 or 4 grossly obvious things that caught my attention even though I wasn't really looking for anything. Amongst other things I saw large chunks of concrete and broken bricks on the stairway up to the train station, a huge hole in the facade of Small World and I'm not talking about some panel left off, I'm talking about a flat out broken, busted wall. I also noticed a number of handrails in the queues that were showing where paint had worn off due to use and a lot of rust in those general areas.

That is why I don't always buy into how perfect DL is compared to WDW. And this was smack dab in the middle of the anniversary celebration. I will give that I haven't been there since 2005, but it seems like if it was going to be pristine, that's when it would have been that way. Just saying!
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
Sometimes that a matter of opinion. The last time I was in Disneyland was toward the middle of the 50th Anniversary. The boards were screaming about what great shape the park was in, and yet, I noticed 3 or 4 grossly obvious things that caught my attention even though I wasn't really looking for anything. Amongst other things I saw large chunks of concrete and broken bricks on the stairway up to the train station, a huge hole in the facade of Small World and I'm not talking about some panel left off, I'm talking about a flat out broken, busted wall. I also noticed a number of handrails in the queues that were showing where paint had warn off due to use and a lot of rust in those general areas.

That is why I don't always buy into how perfect DL is compared to WDW. And this was smack dab in the middle of the anniversary celebration. I will give that I haven't been there since 2005, but it seems like if it was going to be pristine, that's when it would have been that way. Just saying!

It was really nice in June.
 

cheezbat

Well-Known Member
Sometimes that a matter of opinion. The last time I was in Disneyland was toward the middle of the 50th Anniversary. The boards were screaming about what great shape the park was in, and yet, I noticed 3 or 4 grossly obvious things that caught my attention even though I wasn't really looking for anything. Amongst other things I saw large chunks of concrete and broken bricks on the stairway up to the train station, a huge hole in the facade of Small World and I'm not talking about some panel left off, I'm talking about a flat out broken, busted wall. I also noticed a number of handrails in the queues that were showing where paint had warn off due to use and a lot of rust in those general areas.

That is why I don't always buy into how perfect DL is compared to WDW. And this was smack dab in the middle of the anniversary celebration. I will give that I haven't been there since 2005, but it seems like if it was going to be pristine, that's when it would have been that way. Just saying!

Having visited the last number of years, I always look critically at both resorts, and while Disneyland isn't quite perfect, it is indeed in better shape than WDW.

I can't wait to go back again!
 

nytimez

Well-Known Member
Guess I'll just have to take your word for it. I felt the same way about WDW when I was there in April. Not counting the construction, of course, but that is a necessary evil for improvement in my mind.


I've been the WDW three times this year, no trip was less than a week. I enjoyed every trip. But, the place never sparkled the way Disneyland did.

Here's an example: At Disneyland some of the hippos failed to work on Jungle Cruise. Right after the ride, I overheard CMs talking about those hippos - and whether or not they'd shut down the ride because it was not "show ready."

Later in the day, the ride was down. I don't know if it was over the hippos, but I assume it was.

Not a chance in the world they'd take that ride down at WDW over some broken hippos. I don't even think it's up for discussion there. Heck, during my last trip there, there were so many figures broken or missing on it's a small world that it almost looked vandalized at times.
 

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