Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

COProgressFan

Well-Known Member
And early in the morning.

Remember when you could just walk into Crystal Palace for a reasonably priced, family breakfast each day?

Even Disneyland has QS breakfast platters in Tomorrowland.

I remember some great sit down family breakfasts back in the day at Tony's as well. Can you believe folks would sleep in a bit go to the MK at 10am and sit down and have a nice breakfast instead of running to get Fastpasses and get on Peter Pan or Mermaid before it had a 90 minute wait? Inconceivable...

And no QS hot breakfasts at the MK is ridiculous. A few years ago I walked into Cosmic Rays thinking it was open and a manager told me I could go to the bakery on Main Street (which had a line out the door) or get muffins and coffee from the lunching pad (which had muffins crammed into the pretzel case -- it was gross).
 

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
Those two things can absolutely happen at the same time, and did for decades. Back in the 80's both MK and EPCOT were open until midnight every night during the summer. The whole resort was in great shape. Those two things can happen at the same time, TDO just chooses not to spend the cash to do so.
Bingo.

I worked summer graveyard shift at DL in the seventies. The park was open from 8 AM till 1 AM. Seven hours to refresh everything was enough time, because Anaheim hired a small army to do what was necessary. The park looked great every day and everything stayed working throughout the summer.

Disney simply doesn't want to spend the money now. Period. And given what they're charging for ticket media, food/bev/merch, and resort rooms, they should be ashamed. It's out of control greed, pure and simple.
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
Sacrilege! :mad:

I absolutely hated the MK version. The cars were too big and the turns were too wide in order to accommodate them. The smaller cars and tighter turns in DL make the ride seem more wild, which is the whole point of the story.

Besides... the trip to hell in the DL version totally makes the experience! ;)

We went to hell in the MK version. I was run over by the train and wound up in the room full of demons roughly 100 times. Maybe 50 times or so before my roughly 12 year old self realized what the room symbolized. I feel like the DL version is too small. I liked running at things in the open space of the MK version. Of course, I didn't experience the DL version until I was an adult so that is a huge immeasurable source of bias.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I did not read all the posts, but let me sum up and see if I have what many are saying:

1) Keep making more hours available to us, heck why not just say open 24 hours.
2) Stop adding new attractions that do not meet what I want to see in the park, New Fantasy Land, who cares.
3) Pay people more
4) People on this message board could run the parks better than the folks who do now
5) Screw the kids, make everything geared more to us needy adults.

This about sums it up right? There are so many flaws in most of your positions, but let me name a few...

first, the FP+ rather than the EMH...hmmm lets see, Disney can give a benefit to resort guests (who are contributing to the bottom line in a big way) a benefit without spending a ton of $'s on staffing, and that is a bad thing. Well, first and foremost, Disney is a corporation, they are in it to make $'s, if you can give someone a benefit that is comparable to what they get now, but save money doing it, it is a win win situation. Also, with the costs of benefits and other HR related expenses going up, those costs get passed along to all of you in the price of the tickets...so...sure, lets increase hours, but your ticket price will keep skyrocketing faster and faster.

Next, you all want more maintenance, but you want them to do it in less downtime, and god forbid an attraction is down when you are visiting, it would be terrible. there is give and take here. Think about what you are all saying, increase hours, but keep things in better condition. Those two cannot happen at the same time.

Third, so everyone wants new attractions, well when they get them what to they do? Complain. Little Mermaid is not my cup of tea, but little ones love it, and it adds to the fantasy land area, so I think it is a good addition. Do we miss Mr. Toad and what not, sure, but when a kid who is now used to all the technology that is out there, and has no sentimental history for a ride, goes on that ride, disappointment would be an understatement.

Lastly, everyone who talks like they know what is best for Disney needs to realize that WDW has been and will continue to be a destination vacation spot and one of the best Theme Park areas because the people who are running it actually might know what they are doing. Sure things might perfect, but I have to say Disney is HEAD and SHOULDERS above 95% of the other parks around.

Ok, I'll get off my rant, but people, enjoy WDW for what it is, and realize that first and foremost it is a business, so things might not be how you want, but I'll take Disney over just about any other resort area around.
Oh my, I already can tell this is going to be a fun one! Let’s work our way backwards.
I'll take Disney over just about any other resort area around.
And that’s why you continue to get exactly what you deserve, higher prices, declining quality, and fewer guest experiences.
realize that first and foremost it is a business
Yes, my customers love hearing that one. “Sorry I just missed the deadline but it’s a business.” “Sorry the product I just shipped you doesn’t work but it’s a business.” “Sorry I’m charging double what I used to charge but it’s a business.” Corporations who adapt the “customers will take whatever we give them and be happy with it” mentality fall. TDO simply hopes that there are enough people with the “I'll take Disney over just about any other resort” attitude so that they can charge them more, even as WDW’s attendance declines in 2 of the last 3 years.
people who are running it actually might know what they are doing.
Yes, that’s why they let Harry Potter go to Universal. (You know they had the inside track on this one, don’t you?) Because they were just so much smarter than everyone else they just knew WWOHP was going to be a complete flop. That’s why Universal’s attendance has skyrocketed, because the geniuses at TDO knew better. That’s why SeaWorld is experiencing a renaissance, because TDO knew better. That’s why DCA’s numbers are through the roof, because TDO knew better. That’s why AP prices are up 10.6% and DDP prices are up 12.5%, because TDO new better. Do you know better?

Hopefully, you understand the history of business well enough to know that business leaders make mistakes, and lots of them are pretty spectacular.
so everyone wants new attractions, well when they get them what to they do
Do you know anything about the history of WDW? Have you ever read what it was like in the past or perhaps even experienced it first-hand as an adult paying your own way? When WDW regularly added entire theme parks and charged less than they do today in the process. When a new attraction was “WOW”, like Tower of Terror, and not “It that it?”, like Little Mermaid.

You know, like what’s happening at Universal right now.
you all want more maintenance, but you want them to do it in less downtime
Do you know that WDW used to keep the parks open for very long hours? Do you know that WDW had huge cuts in maintenance staff and budget, making it impossible for those remaining to keep up with the growing list of issues at the theme parks? That if TDO hadn’t started to micromanage maintenance about 15 years ago, most of these problems wouldn’t exist today? Instead, the brilliant, I mean the “people who are running it actually might know what they are doing” management crowd were more focused on the size of their annual bonuses than on the long-term health of their company’s most valuable physical asset. Par for the course in business’ “gotta make this quarter’s numbers” mentality.
if you can give someone a benefit that is comparable to what they get now, but save money doing it, it is a win win situation
No one wins with FP+. There are just losers and big losers. Onsite guests are going to lose EMH. That’s 4 extra park hours per day most days. Call me slow but I can’t understand how having the number of operating hours reduced benefits me. Of course, if they’d actually hire the maintenance staff they need and budgeted accordingly …

Everyone loses FP. The current FP system allows everyone equal front-of-the-line access, whether onsite or offsite. “But now that onsite guests are losing EMH, we gotta do something to keep them from abandoning WDW completely. I know, let’s take away all those FP we used to hand out for free and give them to onsite guests instead.” Of course, even the onsite guests lose FP and concede all control of their vacations to TDO, you know, that group of executives making all those brilliant decisions. Offsite guests, well, they get everyone else’s scraps. Why do you think they are adding FP+ to attractions that don’t need them? So they can throw offsite guests a bone.

P.S. Merry Christmas
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
While I can at least see Pooh as being a somewhat more technically advanced ride than Toad, there was just something about Toad that I found much more fun (cheap wood cutouts and all).

I'd actually love to see a redone Toad at Magic Kingdom recreated to use more advanced physical sets and aniamtronics. Also take the Hunny Hunt trackless ride system, would work fantastically for this sort of ride (giving it a mild thrill factor by expanding the wildness of the original), and perhaps mix in a mid version of the "tilting" effect from EMV vehicles in Indy and Dinosaur to make it a little wilder (nothing close to that intensity of course, this is a kid friendly ride). They could easily turn an old beloved if technologically dated classic ride into a completely new and impressive experience.

Sacrilege! :mad:

I absolutely hated the MK version. The cars were too big and the turns were too wide in order to accommodate them. The smaller cars and tighter turns in DL make the ride seem more wild, which is the whole point of the story.

Besides... the trip to hell in the DL version totally makes the experience! ;)
I think most people probably would agree that MK's was better. First time I've heard anyone say they thought MK's was worse. The MK version was more elaborate from a ride experience perspective (still felt "wild" to me). It was a pretty unique sort of ride layout, creatively split into two sides each having a different set of show scenes but intersecting with one another a couple of times (like the town scene). MK's version had a hell scene too, not sure why you thought it didn't

I'd definitely have to say that besides Disneyland's gorgeous rebuilt facade, MK's definitely had the upper hand over DL's. One of the few times that myself and I'd imagine most other people agree that MK got a superior version of a Disneyland ride (Splash Mountain being the other, Tower of Terror is better at WDW too but that's at another park and was actually a WDW original that was cloned and downgraded for California).

It's sort of like the inverse of what happened with Pirates of the Caribbean actually. Disneyland got the version with the "worse" queue and facade, but a superior ride experience due to being longer and beefier. Whereas WDW got a superior queue and facade but a considerably dumbed down version of the ride itself. The opposite is true of Toad however. DL's facade and queue was eventually given a great facelift, but MK had the better core ride experience.

That's not to say Disneyland's is bad by any means. It was the original after all. It's just that a newer version was better, as it should be just for the sake of it being newer and having a greater amount of space (it's actually quite stupid how so few of MK's cloned rides ARE better than Disneyland's given these facts). It really doesn't matter at all though. Toad at MK is long gone and isn't coming back, Disneyland's is still present so now wins by default of actually still existing. It's the only thing we have anymore to remind us of it besides old videos.
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
Whilst we're on the topic of Mr. Toad's, I should also note that the two tracks in MK had slightly different show scenes, which is also a plus.
 

hpyhnt 1000

Well-Known Member
Next, you all want more maintenance, but you want them to do it in less downtime, and god forbid an attraction is down when you are visiting, it would be terrible. there is give and take here. Think about what you are all saying, increase hours, but keep things in better condition. Those two cannot happen at the same time.

No one is against extra maintenance, but its about balance in park hours vs. upkeep. The historical record shows that, at one time, WDW was able to effectively balance both. I agree with Spirit: a 7am-3am park schedue is insane. At the same time having the MK open 9am-7pm on Jan 2 (the Sunday of NYE weekend) is also silly.

Third, so everyone wants new attractions, well when they get them what to they do? Complain. Little Mermaid is not my cup of tea, but little ones love it, and it adds to the fantasy land area, so I think it is a good addition. Do we miss Mr. Toad and what not, sure, but when a kid who is now used to all the technology that is out there, and has no sentimental history for a ride, goes on that ride, disappointment would be an understatement.

No one denies the Mermaid (and New Fantasyland) are good/necessary additions for the MK. Problem is that Mermaid is being asked to be something that it isnt: the headline (and currently only) attraction for an expansion. Its a C/D ticket thats being asked to do the work of an big budget E ticket.

Lastly, everyone who talks like they know what is best for Disney needs to realize that WDW has been and will continue to be a destination vacation spot and one of the best Theme Park areas because the people who are running it actually might know what they are doing. Sure things might perfect, but I have to say Disney is HEAD and SHOULDERS above 95% of the other parks around.

Head and shoulders? At best, they're foreheads above their Orlando competition, and losing body mass every year.
 

gonnichi

Well-Known Member
Whilst we're on the topic of Mr. Toad's, I should also note that the two tracks in MK had slightly different show scenes, which is also a plus.

I liked that one side had all male characters, and the other side had male and female characters. kinda neat. I didnt realize this for a long time.
 

djlaosc

Well-Known Member
From what I've seen in video (and someone who's been there could verify this), the Winnie the Pooh ride in Tokyo looks like it beats out all of the dark rides in America, if for no other reason than there is no track!

Well then you could really enjoy a trip to SeaWorld Orlando next spring/summer - and they are going to have the most realistic animatronics ever! ;)
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
If, as some have suggested in previous posts, that the value and moderate resorts will allow you one, two at a push, FP+, do they really think that this is going to draw people into their hotels? I'm over there in four weeks and will be spending seven nights in the Springhill Suites @ Seaworld which entitles me to a large room in a location which is convenient to all of Orlando's parks, free breakfast and front of the line at Seaworld, all for a lot less than any Disney offering. Couple that with a Flexticket for those with a limited amount of time and you have a far better, and far cheaper, package than anything WDW can offer.

I have my doubts too, but we will have to see how it works. Some of it may be more of a way to keep current onsite guests on property while offering a perk that replaces the more expensive EMH perk. You can't just take away EMHs without replacing them with something else or people will feel they got screwed. To a lot of less frequent visitors, staying on property is essential to a quality WDW vacation. You may know there are cheaper alternatives out there, but you splurge for that one time vacation and it comes with FP+, free dining and even a free bus to pick you up at the airport. That is probably how they will market it.
 

gonnichi

Well-Known Member
Well then you could really enjoy a trip to SeaWorld Orlando next spring/summer - and they are going to have the most realistic animatronics ever! ;)

I cant wait to ride it. why can't wdw keep up with Universal and Sea World as far as ride technology?
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Those two things can absolutely happen at the same time, and did for decades. Back in the 80's both MK and EPCOT were open until midnight every night during the summer. The whole resort was in great shape. Those two things can happen at the same time, TDO just chooses not to spend the cash to do so.

Although I agree with you in principle, it should be considered that the time you are remembering was a much newer park. Like a new car, up to a point, maintenance is almost non-existent. That parks were not as plentiful or require as much manpower to keep them in shape. I know that the next thing to be said is "hire more people" which I can tell you is not as simple as that. I always remember the poster that said..."It's hard to remember when you're up to your butt in Alligators that your original objective was to drain the swamp!"

Everything, at this point in time, has one very weak link and that is people. You can hire a thousand people that don't know what they are doing and throw them out in the battle with just barely enough ability to not continuously hit their own thumb with the hammer and get things half done or you can take the skilled that may work at a slower pace then to the liking of some, and have it done properly, but not immediately.
 

Dasnowz

Well-Known Member
At the same time having the MK open 9am-7pm on Jan 2 (the Sunday of NYE weekend) is also silly.

Not sure where you get weekend or 7pm from. this is from the park website. even without magic hours its open until a 1 am until jan 6 then its 10 pm.


DatePark Hours
Saturday, December 29 7:00 AM - 8:00 AM Extra Magic Hours
8:00 AM - 1:00 AM
Sunday, December 30 12:00 AM - 3:00 AM Extra Magic Hours
7:00 AM - 8:00 AM Extra Magic Hours
8:00 AM - 12:00 AM
Monday, December 31 7:00 AM - 8:00 AM Extra Magic Hours
8:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Tuesday, January 01 8:00 AM - 1:00 AM
Wednesday, January 02 8:00 AM - 1:00 AM
Thursday, January 03 7:00 AM - 8:00 AM Extra Magic Hours
8:00 AM - 1:00 AM
Friday, January 04 8:00 AM - 1:00 AM
Saturday, January 05 9:00 AM - 1:00 AM
Sunday, January 06 9:00 AM - 10:00 PM
10:00 PM - 12:00 AM Extra Magic Hours
Monday, January 07 9:00 AM - 9:00 PM
 

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
I feel like the DL version is too small. I liked running at things in the open space of the MK version.
I feel the MK version was too big. The cars lumbered around the corners too slowly. Nothing was in your face like in DL. Everything was too spread out. I like DL's quick scene changes. It feels more intimate, especially hell.

Actually, the old MK Toad encapsulated what I hate about MK overall: it's too big to be Disneyland. There's too much space and not enough theming/details between points of interest. The strip mall feel of Fantasyland's corridor kills the mood of a fairy tale place. And the overall layout of the western side of the park feels weird and disjointed, compared to DL's west side. If you're unfamiliar with the layout, it's easy to get turned around, especially at night.

EPCOT can get away with its large size because of the World's Fair theme. Sure, there's a lot of walking around the lagoon. But the scenery of that vast open space, combined with easily identifiable landmarks at each country, help create a sense of journey and destination. I've never had that feeling at MK. Standing in the hub in front of the castle, the entrances to each land are far enough away to not be readily visible and inviting. The space is too large. I constantly feel lost in MK, even though I always know where I am. MK needs to be about 75% of its current size to ditch this feeling.

DAK, at least for me, is the perfect size of all the parks. It's not too much walking between rides/shows/exhibits, and the immersive theming/details compel you to slow your pace and take in the ambiance. I don't feel as though I'm inside a theme park, which is the point. I am transported to another world not like my own. I want MK to do that, but it misses the mark repeatedly.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
I'd actually love to see a redone Toad at Magic Kingdom recreated to use more advanced physical sets and aniamtronics. Also take the Hunny Hunt trackless ride system, would work fantastically for this sort of ride (giving it a mild thrill factor by expanding the wildness of the original), and perhaps mix in a mid version of the "tilting" effect from EMV vehicles in Indy and Dinosaur to make it a little wilder
Great idea for a ride system that Disney innovated with earlier versions. It's coming to Orlando real soon.
At Sea World.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Great idea for a ride system that Disney innovated in earlier versions. It's coming to Orlando real soon.
At Sea World.
So there was already an idea to mix trackless with EMV? Shame nothing was done with it because it sounds like it would have been a fantastic idea. A new Toad ride seems like a very good way to utilize that ride system hybrid.

Now are you saying that Antarctica will use this system though? I know it's trackless, but it's also going to tilt and sway like EMV too? The more I hear about the Antarctica ride, the more excited I am. I haven't visited Sea World since the early 90's (once). Getting a very "original Epcot" vibe from what i've heard about the newer attractions there. I'll try to visit next year, along with Universal (though I may wait until Potter 2.0 is finished, not sure yet). It's good that even with WDW continually falling downhill, the other Orlando (or Tampa) parks are consistently improving themselves and picking up the slack.

I think the concept of a hybrid trackless and milder version of the EMV ride system lends itself brilliantly to the concept of Mr Toad's Wild Ride. It could blow everyone away if done right. It's a given that Toad was lacking in terms of sets and figures. That part is easy to rectify as you simply replace the wood and painted cutouts with physical sets and animatronic figures to modern standards, those upgrades alone would make the ride a massive step up from what was there before. If they somehow combined a scaled back milder version of the EMV tech with the trackless ride system, it would be one hell of a ride IMO. The trackless path would meld perfectly with the unpredictable wild nature of the story. Melded together with EMV tech would further add to this and provide the sensation of going over different terrains (especially as I hear trackless has to be on flat surfaces).

Wouldn't even matter in the slightest whether the source material isn't as well known, the level of quality that they could put into this potential new ride would bring everyone in and wanting to ride it. Again if done right this could actually be a true E Ticket, potentially even better than Hunny Hunt!

Guess we're kind of swerving off into armchair imagineering though, wrong forum eh? LOL! ;)
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
I'd actually love to see a redone Toad at Magic Kingdom recreated to use more advanced physical sets and aniamtronics. Also take the Hunny Hunt trackless ride system, would work fantastically for this sort of ride (giving it a mild thrill factor by expanding the wildness of the original), and perhaps mix in a mid version of the "tilting" effect from EMV vehicles in Indy and Dinosaur to make it a little wilder (nothing close to that intensity of course, this is a kid friendly ride). They could easily turn an old beloved if technologically dated classic ride into a completely new and impressive experience.

Mr. Toad doesn't really fit into the medieval European flavor of Fantasyland at this pont, but I would love it to be recreated elsewhere in WDW. As you say, adding in a novel ride system or even just making the scenes more impressive would be cool if they kept the "spirit" of the ride. I've been one to hype a cartoon character "land" in DAK and Mr. Toad could fit in there easily. Or if they ever expanded/reconfigured Animation courtyard in DHS, I could see it fit in nicely there (would especially be beneficial given the lack of family friendly rides in that park).

Quick question: did the two tracks in MK take you to different endings? I feel like one ended in Hell and one in Heaven, but I might be making that up.
 

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