Slash and Burn ...

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Quote:
Originally Posted by agent86
So where exactly can the average person get access to these alleged "numbers" that everyone always refers to in order to support their points? I'm always hearing that argument, "look at the numbers", but no one is ever able to actually produce these "numbers" they're using to back up their claims. I wish I could do that any time I'm trying to win a debate. That would be great if I could just say, "Well if you don't believe me, just look at that highly classified government docu...Oh, wait. That's right, you don't have access to that. Well I guess you'll just have to take my word for it." :hammer:


As somebody who's guilty of using that phrase, I see your point. But you can see the results of said "numbers":

>> DAK's attendance level has skyrocketed since E:E opened. You should be able to find this on Google (I don't have time to pull it up for you right now).

>> Thanks to WDW's marketing machine, E:E was plastered all over Discovery, History, and Travel channels, leading to a lot of public hype. The attraction is almost 3 years old, and it's still the first thing Guests run to when DAK opens. (Granted, it's the most recent ride too.)

>> BACK to SGE <<
Much of the "failure" evidence is unavailable to Guests, so you'll have to take WDW1974's word for it. Sorry, that's part of reading and participating in a "News/Rumors" thread.

Thanks for answering this and Happy NewYear!!!:wave:

But yeah, some things like DAK's attendance is pretty easy to find.

Other things like guest satisfaction numbers from inside Disney for things like EE or SGE or MS ... well, they aren't. Some of us have access to information and we place it out there. You are free to believe it or make up your own (again, though, it doesn't change the accuracy of said info but it might make you feel better!)
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
:sohappy: Most definitely! Of course, if we're to believe what some people (most notably WDW1974) tell us, then the plastic bird on a stick is precisely true to Joe Rhodes' vision. :hammer:

I wish you and others here would simply READ what I write and not put words into my mouth.

I would tell you the exact opposite because I know FOR A FACT that bird on a stick was not something that was part of Joe ROHDE's vision for EE.

Sometimes you have to let some things go ...
 

EpcotServo

Well-Known Member
"incredible special effects"!!!? There is one projection effect (extremely low budget and not very well done in my opinion)

It's one of the largest and most advanced Digital Projectors ever made.

*Brain Freeze*

You know I almost wish I DIDN'T know so much about Everest, maybe then I wouldn't get so ticked off all the time if I didn't know how awesome this stuff is behind the scenes when it brakes or when people whine about it.
:lol:
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Ok,
I read about the first thirty pages, then started skipping through and only read the posts of WDW1974, EpcotServo, Buried20KLeague, including a side-track through the pictures of the PoC III premier and story.... All great by the way...

Only to now feel somewhat justified in reading that much and spending the past 2 1/2 hours reading, I have to sum up my thoughts on all of this.

- WDW1974 put it best many pages ago. I visited MK (and I say only MK as it was the only park open then) in 1981 and stayed at FW and I was 6 years old. I don't remember many of the particulars, but remember the majors like IaSW, POC, pretty much all of fantasy land. But, I do remember Space Mountain and my unending fear of going on that ride. My fear was SOLELY centered around the fact that everytime I stood in the line with my father and siblings, the darn thing broke down. EVERYTIME! I remember being the next family to board and it broke down and that scared the life out of me (was I going to go off track and plummet to my death??) My father, to say the least, finally gave up and wouldn't bother standing in line for the umpteenth time for me to only have me scream and cry in fear.
It goes to say that the first time I rode this ride was in 2001 on my honeymoon.
---What does the above story have to do with this thread? Well, 2 reasons:
A) Space Mountain is in desperate need of a rehab, as it may have needed in 1981. Give some attention to it so it doesn't become a storage room or cm locker room ala the shops in adventureland.
B) Some things in life are going to be scary to 6 year olds and are not intended for everyone to see. That fear stayed with me and is now a 'pleasant memory' I have of a family vacation. While I don't remember Alien Encounter whatsoever, the scariness of the space mountain breakdowns still linger when I ride it now.


Now onto Alien Encounter/SGE
I have a 6 year old who has been at Disney at least once a year for the past three years now. His first disney movie he loved was Lilo & Stitch. Stitch cluttered his bedroom, we could recite the movie, the soundtrack played constantly in the car, and we named our dog Stitch. He was not afraid of the character at 3 years old and SGE was by far the attraction he was excited about. While he wasn't dissatisified about the ride, it was a one-timer; he didn't want to ride it multiple times, nor has he wanted to ride it many times on later trips. My stomach turns at the smell of the chili dogs. The only thing that gets him on the ride ONCE a trip is seeing if he can remember where Stitch spits to get sprayed.
What does this have to do with AE? While I don't remember the ride whatsoever, and I'm not even sure if I was on the ride ever, that fear is something that is lost in today's society. A poster before mentioned that the entire park (and pretty much USA) for that matter has become a place that has to be acceptable to all. (I'm trying to paraphrase) I have had enough of that mentality. Fear is a part of life (albeit fear of a ride). I can imagine the people that would complain at guest services for frightening their youngster and demanding recourse. Like I said earlier, the fear of the Space Mountain break-downs is still alive in me and I hold that close to my heart in family vacation memories, more so than riding AE (*if I had in fact rode it, none of my family remembers! No offense AE lovers)

I have been to disney multiple times and very spread out between 1980 and 2001 and can't pinpoint the torch-lighting, or disney topiaries, or diamond horseshoe. I came to Disney on a family vacation and just hoped that I got to see Mickey himself, afterall, that is the only thing I was interested in. A picture with Mickey and his autograph. The rides were a definite plus. It is the character experiences that keep my son wanting to return year after year. Using the DDP to take part in these experiences is starting to become less cost effective due to the changes and that have been made as of late. But we looked at it as a means to killing two birds with one stone (eating and not having to wait in endless lines in the judges tent or character spot).

Even though memory hasn't been my best friend on many of these topics, nor do I have the ability to have an AP, insider knowledge, an economics or business degree, or the time (unlike this morning) to read through pages on a message board, I do see the suttle changes in Disney quality and not just in the parks of Orlando. I think there might have been a bit of over-saturation going on here. Yeah, this thread is about WDW, but take into account the Disney Store closures this past year. A disney store was 15 minutes away from me and it closed (quickly I might add). Having befriended the manager there, I felt terrible for her for how the whole thing played out. In hindsight, it was a "slash and burn" mentality that occured when they closed the stores. Now going to a nearby Outlet store yesterday, I actually walked in there, not having any disney magic since my August trip and walked out with a stuffed animal for my son. I thought of the magic that was in my neighborhood store and how quickly that turned into "business" I see it now with how WDW1974's simple and blunt reality check was in the first post. It's business, there is no other way around it. It is so believable that WDW did nothing but funnel money into other areas of TWDC during times, but now that is not reciprocating for whatever reason, the cash cow as it was put earlier will eventually stop being productive.

Very interesting post.

Thanks for your comments and perspective.

It's always been a business at WDW ... but the difference came in the mid-90s with the rise of the MBAs, consultants and marketing wizards when the whole business model changed. That's when the cutbacks began ... the outsourcing ... the letting things go (when they used to seperate Disney from everyone else) ... the selling of timeshare as one of the top purposes of WDW ... etc ... all of this dumbed down the magic for everyone.
 

EpcotServo

Well-Known Member
I wish you and others here would simply READ what I write and not put words into my mouth.

I would tell you the exact opposite because I know FOR A FACT that bird on a stick was not something that was part of Joe ROHDE's vision for EE.

Sometimes you have to let some things go ...

Cool story by the way, pretty early on Joe Rhode came in one day (Close to the first previews) and rode the ride ten times around, Five times with the Bird ON, and five times with the Bird OFF.

So how he came to the decision to keep it on, we may never know. But I know he thought about it.
:lol:
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I can answer this, but you aren't going to like it, I can guarantee it.

OK ... so here comes my very last post of 2008 and you're not going to tell me how wonderful I am and how nice I look in tight jeans!:lol:

Let's hear it, I need to shower and be gone by 6:15!

It's becuase with Lee's posts, people don't feel as if they're being talked down to...the posting style isn't as grating and it's a lot easier to focus on what's being talked about, rather than how it's been portrayed. And of course, that gains you respect and it means people will listen to you. Now, while you may be intellegent, I think a lot of people have trouble with the way you talk about what you're intellegent about, which turns them off. It's hard to not respect someone who can intellegent, articulate, and rational.

Well ... I guess Lee is a bit more boring :) ... or is that apolitical?
And not to focus on him, but I haven't seen him start threads like this one that are intended to provoke thought and discussion and passion. Maybe that makes him smarter than me ... I am just trying to get a pulse for what people believe and why they do do.

But the bottom line is people don't like when someone is ... blunt. I am. My time is valuable and I may not have time to put out all these niceties and qualifiers. I guess I must be doing something right if I can get people to think and comment ... even those who disagree with me ... hell, even those who disagree with me for no intelligent reason other than they want to be disagreeable.

This thread keeps going ... even when I don't post for days. Why is that?

These are all reasons on which I believe why people are annoyed by your posting style. While you may have good information, if you want people to focus more on what you're saying and not on how you're saying it, (which, I'm assuming you'd probably prefer) you may want to try changing your posting style to be more like Lee's than how you are currently posting now.

I agree with some of what you say ... but I also believe firmly that many folks here just don't want to hear anything that conflicts with their World and world views. I could wrap my message in magic and pixie dust (dangling pin lanyards too) and many here would still think I'm the devil!:goodnevil

(was going to say anti-Walt ... but for many here he might as well be Millard Filmore (sp?) or Napoleon or Fred Flintstone -- always wanted to get those three in a post together -- or some other character they know from history class or old TV!)

I'm understanding of your message, don't get me wrong...I can see how you have quite a few good points...but the thing that gets to me, is not what you say, but how you say it. And that can turn a lot of people away. (It's even hard for me to sometimes want to listen to the message when you come off the way you do sometimes.)

I hope you know I'm not trying to start WWIII here, so, please don't take this the wrong way, I was just giving you some construstive criticism, since you kind of asked. (inadvertantly). :wave:

I'm glad you think I have a few good points. I think I have a lot more than a few myself. And I didn't really ask ... I commented, but I always welcome discussion!

But I really gotta run ... Happy New Year!!!
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
The "74" walmarting of WDWMagic is over for a time. :D

It can be summed up in the phrase, "WDC is cheap and engaging in too much mass marketing". Obsessivly repeated over and over and over again. :dazzle:


OK, all adults can resume their normal conversations at leisure.:)


Happy New Year
 

whylightbulb

Well-Known Member
It's one of the largest and most advanced Digital Projectors ever made.

*Brain Freeze*

You know I almost wish I DIDN'T know so much about Everest, maybe then I wouldn't get so ticked off all the time if I didn't know how awesome this stuff is behind the scenes when it brakes or when people whine about it.
:lol:
In my professional career I've used just about every type of digital projector for show and ride effects out there, from the early Disney HMIs to the latest high res., polarized filters, special lens etc. and I can tell you that there is nothing special about the effect achieved here. Don't get me wrong, every effect will always require some amount of headache and design challenge but the execution and original intent of this effect is less than stellar in my opinion. I say this with the alleged $120 Million budget in mind.

As I've posted in another thread, I'm currently working on a dark ride overseas with a total $2.7 million budget (including facility and site infrastructure) that will include 22 special effects, many of which will be much more impressive than the one you refer to in Everest. One projection based effect will include 3 extremely high tech. projectors with special lensing, high end RP screen, 9K media players, custom in-house distortion technology, bounce mirrors and 20 second photo-realistic CGI. The cost for this one show sequence is $135K. If that lame Yety shadow projection gag costs any more than $75K they paid way too much.

So let's see, shadow projection gag = $75K and overhyped animatronic costs $1 million. Add the smaller smoke effects and a touch of lighting and you have a grand total of about $1.3 million (and I'm being generous) for the lighting and effects package. Scenic of course is the bulk of the show cost and that is mostly gunite/hardcoat with a bunch of props. I'm sorry but this attraction is wayyyyy overhyped.

I like the coaster, especially the backwards sequence, but it's not much more than that. Fun ride but could fit into any amusement park minus the props and decent rockwork.
 

Monty

Brilliant...and Canadian
In the Parks
No
I have no professional credentials in any aspect of running a multinational entertainment corporation, designing roller coasters or the special effects associated with them. I'm just a guy who rides EE and thoroughly enjoys the experience.

I enjoy it when the misters are working or not.
I enjoy it when the Yeti is i "A" or "B" mode.
I enjoy the Standby queue and the FastPass queue.
I enjoy the steam and don't miss it when it's not working.
I enjoy the projected Yeti tearing up the tracks and don't find it "lame".
I like sitting in the back row more than the front, but will gladly sit anywhere.
I enjoy going backwards and the stomach churn that happens every time.
I have ridden well over 50 times and look forward to many more.
I don't care if there's a bird on a stick or not. For me it adds nothing to the ride, but takes nothing away either.

My name is Monty and I believe I am too old to be a "fanboy", but feel free to label me any way you see fit, because ultimately your opinion means little or nothing to me.

To Joe Rohde [should you happen to have the opportunity to read this]:

Job well done! Thank you.
 

ttalovebug

Active Member
I have no professional credentials in any aspect of running a multinational entertainment corporation, designing roller coasters or the special effects associated with them. I'm just a guy who rides EE and thoroughly enjoys the experience.

I enjoy it when the misters are working or not.
I enjoy it when the Yeti is i "A" or "B" mode.
I enjoy the Standby queue and the FastPass queue.
I enjoy the steam and don't miss it when it's not working.
I enjoy the projected Yeti tearing up the tracks and don't find it "lame".
I like sitting in the back row more than the front, but will gladly sit anywhere.
I enjoy going backwards and the stomach churn that happens every time.
I have ridden well over 50 times and look forward to many more.
I don't care if there's a bird on a stick or not. For me it adds nothing to the ride, but takes nothing away either.

My name is Monty and I believe I am too old to be a "fanboy", but feel free to label me any way you see fit, because ultimately your opinion means little or nothing to me.

To Joe Rohde [should you happen to have the opportunity to read this]:

Job well done! Thank you.

I guess this is what WDW1974 thinks is kool-aid drinking, and thinking disney can do no wrong. But I think that Monty is just a positive guy. There's nothing wrong with being positive sometimes. It doesn't mean you're ignorant or high on pixie dust. It just means you can enjoy life a little more. Try it! It might do you some good.:wave:
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Its just not as good as the Mummy.

An awful lot of chaps compensating for the lack of something on this thread. Or maybe they really are boring in the flesh too.:shrug:

Perhaps they should have helped design Mission Space, because they sure as hell suck the atmosphere out of this board.

I once held an umbrella for Prince Charles, so I think Im well qualified to comment on weather effects. No?
 

mrssparrow

Active Member
Its just not as good as the Mummy.

An awful lot of chaps compensating for the lack of something on this thread. Or maybe they really are boring in the flesh too.:shrug:

Perhaps they should have helped design Mission Space, because they sure as hell suck the atmosphere out of this board.

I once held an umbrella for Prince Charles, so I think Im well qualified to comment on weather effects. No?

what? I am totally lost on this post. :veryconfu
 

CBOMB

Active Member
Its just not as good as the Mummy.

An awful lot of chaps compensating for the lack of something on this thread. Or maybe they really are boring twats in the flesh too.:shrug:

Perhaps the should have helped design Mission Space, because they sure as hell suck the atmosphere out of this board.

I once held an umbrella for Prince Charles, so I think Im well qualified to comment on weather effects. No?
I would have thought the Prince of Wales would have been holding the umbrella for you!:D
 

agent86

New Member
You know I almost wish I DIDN'T know so much about Everest, maybe then I wouldn't get so ticked off all the time if I didn't know how awesome this stuff is behind the scenes when it brakes or when people whine about it.
:lol:

That's the problem. With Everest it seems like you have to know all that stuff in order to really appreciate it. But your average guest is never going to care enough about wanting to know all the behind the scenes stuff...nor should they. Disney doesn't design attractions for the hardcore Disney buff who is going to research and read everything about an attraction so they know how much it cost, who designed it, the backstory, etc. Disney designs attractions for the average guest who is going to experience the attraction for a few minutes and then move on. Everest doesn't seem to be designed for the average guest and that's the problem.

And while I'm sure at least someone will put a negative spin on what I'm saying here, I'm honestly not trying to be insulting when I say that I think a lot of hardcore Disney buffs on this site might be a little outta touch with how the outside world (again, Disney's primary audience) views this stuff. Case in point is that you can come to this site any day of the week and read comments from hundreds of people going on about how "awesome" and "amazing" Expedition Everest is. It seems the majority of posters here include it on their top ten all time favorite attractions list somewhere. And based on that alone, it would be easy to believe that's how Everest is generally received.

I also think that people here love to point out how Everest is the most popular ride at DAK and how guests run to it right away upon entering the park. But you gotta remember...it's DAK! I mean, I think it's a beautiful park and I love going there, but let's face it, there aren't a whole lot of choices of what to run to upon entering the park. And personally if I had never been there and didn't really know anything about which were the good rides, I am sure I'd run over to the big white snowy mountain with the roller coaster running in and around it, long before I'd run across the park to the safari ride that I couldn't see from outside the park. Most people would. It is, after all, a very striking and impressive sight to behold. It's just that the attraction inside it is disappointing by comparison.

Having said that, I do ride Everest every time I visit the park. But that's not because I think Everest is the greatest ride ever. It's because I happen to really enjoy big roller coasters. Everest is far from being a great roller coaster, but it beats any other coaster that DAK has to offer. But if the Incredible Hulk or the Mummy were also attractions in DAK, I'd definitely run to them long before I'd run to Everest. And I might be inclined to skip Everest altogether if those two rides existed in the park along with it. And I suspect most people would feel the same way.
 

agent86

New Member
"incredible special effects"!!!? There is one projection effect (extremely low budget and not very well done in my opinion) and one animatronic...that's it! Why is this ride so hyped up by everyone? It's a nice coaster with very little show. Big Thunder has more show elements than Everest. In my opinion we continue to go backwards (no pun intended) with Everest in terms of quality, innovation and show compared to the attractions from the early 90's and before.

Good luck getting a definitive answer on this one. I, too, have asked people to describe what the heck they're talking about when they mention Everest's "incredible special effects". No one can ever name anything except stuff like the waterfall (Wow, how the hell did they do that?? :hammer:), or the lame projection. I've even read posts on here where people will make the claim that Everest has "tons of spectacular special effects" but ignore my request to tell me exactly which "effects" they're talking about. But of course, don't ever accuse any of these people of being biased or looking at Everest through rose-colored glasses! :hammer:
 

agent86

New Member
Except YOU were the one saying it's crummy because of all the budget cuts as though that's supposed to make me say "OH, well in that case it IS a disappointing attraction."

Once again, I challenge anyone to find a single post of mine where I've called Everest "crummy". You're having an extreme reaction to my honest opinion of Everest, which is to say that I think its overrated and a disappointment relative to the buildup. I didn't say I hate the ride or that it's "crummy". I just don't think it's as incredible as people make it out to be and I'm always baffled to hear how great people on these boards make it out to be.

All you have to do is be like the few of us here (Me, 1974, Lee, a few others) who actually know the ride and it's first years of operation like the back of our hands, and play Disney information close to the chest instead of having nothing whatsoever to do with the ride but come about with conjuncture and hearsay regarding the creation of the attraction while simultaneously blasting anyone with a differing opinion like they're second class citizens.

Maybe that's why you aren't privy to what actually happens at the ride on a day to day basis like some of us?
:shrug:

Translation: No you don't have access to these alleged "numbers" that proponents of Everest are referring to whenever you say things like "just look at the numbers". That phrase is merely to make you sound like you have some sort of hard data to back up your opinion of the ride, and you didn't expect that anyone would actually challenge you to share where you got these "numbers".

Note to EpcotServo: For what it's worth, my use of the word "you" in that last paragraph was not directly specifically at you. It was more of a generic "you" to everyone who is in the habit of bringing up these made up "numbers". :wave:
 

agent86

New Member
The park that is DAK would be his (thus far) crowning achievement.

On that point, we can definitely agree. In fact, as theme parks go, and in terms of overall look and feel, I would say that DAK is THE crowning achievement period. It is, hands down the most beautiful theme park I've ever visited and I think the attention to detail is incredible. Granted, I've never been to Tokyo Disney Seas, and that looks very impressive from the photos I've seen.
 

agent86

New Member
(even if you don't like it, and I'm sure Disney or Joe doesn't give a damn if you don't).

Yes and the CEO of Microsoft "doesn't give a damn" if people don't like Windows Vista. And I'm sure the CEO of McDonald's "doesn't give a damn" if people don't like Big Macs. And of course, the CEOs of Ford, GM and Chrysler don't care at all if people can't stand the cars they make. Yes, of course, I'm sure you're quite correct in stating that Disney doesn't care what their paying customers think. :hammer::hammer:
 

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