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Slash and Burn ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, but that's not really my argument. My thinking is more along the lines of "MK is for everybody, and any attraction there should make a reasonable effort to entertain adults in a way that most kids can appreciate too." I hate to pull out the Walt card, but from what I've read, that was basically what he wanted to see...a place where adults could take their kids and have fun themselves at the same time. I just don't see how AE fit the bill at all...as compared to:
No problem whatsoever with Space Mountain here. No problem with people getting scared on Space Mountain. It's a ride whose main goal is to serve up some fun with a little "edge" (or what qualified as such in the '80s). Drawing the line between thrills and scares is an art, not a science, and anything you do to try to spice up a ride is going to scare somebody. There's no way around it.
But Space Mountain wasn't designed for the express intent of trying to mind-eff people of all ages and deliberately be so frightening that young kids would be left out. If you meet the height requirement, I'd say you have as good a chance of enjoying Space Mountain as being scared by it.
This is the part that stands out to me most, and I'm hoping I can address it without sounding like a pretentious know-it-all.
I don't think qualities like "unique," "original" and "fun" — taken alone — are the right barometers for what should be dropped in Tomorrowland. Filming a o in outer space would be unique, original and fun. Putting up an exhibit where guests feed Alka-Seltzer to seagulls and watch them explode would be a new, interesting idea that lots of people would enjoy.
AE wasn't quite in that league, obviously...but it was an example of something that was designed almost exclusively for people over...I dunno, 13? 16? It deliberately excluded younger kids. You could say that Stitch excludes adults or people with brains. I don't think that's much of an improvement, except for the fact that (hopefully) most adults aren't permanently traumatized by Stitch. (Some of the posts around here would seem to indicate otherwise, though.)
I'm happy to engage in a dialogue on this, but just make sure to represent what I'm saying accurately. I'm NOT saying that every ride should look like the Speedway or every land should be Toontown. I think those are kind of a drag too, because they don't appeal to adults. The only difference, I guess, is that kids won't have to deal with years of their parents wetting the bed because they forced them to walk through Mickey's house.
nibblesandbits
Well-Known Member
No sir...I isn't saying that.
Plenty of stuff can be considered "scary and intense" by some standard. I'd be willing to bet that every single Disney attraction has scared some kid, for some season. Obviously saying anything that might scare anybody has to be removed would result in...well, I was going to say a bunch of Winnie-the-Pooh meet & greets, but heck, I'm sure some kids are terrified of those freaky characters, so even that would be out.
AE was in a class of its own. It was designed to scare the crap out of not just kids, but people of any age with active imaginations and a fear of the dark. I know plenty of people will disagree, but I don't think it even existed to tell a story...the entire narrative was window dressing for an experience intended to scare the $hit out of as many people as possible. (Which is fine, by the way...but it doesn't belong at Mickey's Magical Kingdom. Not because it offended my delicate sensibilities, but because it violated the premise of what MK is advertised as being.)
But I digress. Because inspiring abject terror was its primary goal, I just don't think AE compared to any other attraction out there that happens to have some strong thematic elements (like snakes, cannon fire or spooky spirits) to add to the "thrill" factor. It's apples and kumquats, as far as I'm concerned.
I know my opinion isn't the only one out there, but...well, I'm rather attached to it myself, so I suppose I'll stick with it until I come across a better one.
Continuing the off topic tirade...I am one who can attest to it being there to scare the $hit out of people!
I was 16 when I went on it. 16 and I didn't want to go back. It scared the absolute bejesus out of me. Someone who knows it's all fake, yet every aspect of that ride put together did a number on me. (And I didn't feel all the effects as I had on a Halloween costume at the time). I'd seen the signs saying it was scary myself...but my mom had mentioned how cool it was, so we went on it. I vowed from that moment, never again.
I am one who would agree that while it was a unique ride, and maybe would have done better at DHS, it was not so appropriate in the MK, because, as someone else has mentioned, Disney has conditioned the majority of the public that the MK is full of mostly fun, fantasy and pixie dust. And a terrifying alien who breaks out of a tube and scares the daylights out of young and old alike does not fit into that model.
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
Best post of the year :sohappy:
Back in the mid to late 90's the Magic Kingdom was actually my favorite park (Yes the New Tomorrowland and the Future World changes did play a huge role) and now it is my least favorite. Adults without small children do actually go to the park and that audience does not need to be forgotten. The upgrades to Pirates and Mansion were very welcome, but this park hasn't received an E-ticket since Splash Mountain in 92 and all of what made the New Tomorrowland so special is now gone.
Attendance numbers don't back it up (yet), but the park has grown stale. Just look at the way Disney turned Disneyland around a few years ago. That park feels much more alive and fresh than the MK. Hopefully the crown jewel of the WDW resort will be able to shine brightly again. A little originality wouldn't hurt the place either :animwink:
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
I couldn't disagree more. The story is what AE such a fantastic experience. The corporate satire played perfectly in a place like Disney World and the humor was just as relevant as the scare tactics. Even as an 11 year old seeing the show for the first time, I caught the humor even more so than the points designed to scare.
blackjakkal
New Member
Wow there is alot of thought going on here
After reading all 36 pages of post I will attempt to make a insightful comment based on the general "vibe" I am getting.
In moments of crisis I always find it a good time to reflect. Considering the current situation the term crisis may be warranted.
In this country it is expected in majority of occupations to do “your best”. What qualifies as “your best” sometimes does not mean what is best for society. Here is a drastic example.
Let us pretend I work for a major pharmaceutical company. My job is a finical analyst. My job performance is based on how much money I save in production of product lines. I discover that we can save millions by switching a chemical in our children’s cough medicine. All reports from the vendor of the substitute chemical say it will work just as good as our current chemical. I recommend this change and the substitution happens. The company saves money and my job performance score goes up. A layoff occurs and I am not laid off because my job performance score recently went up.
Unknown to me the vendor’s reports were inaccurate (which happens 99% of the time). The substitute chemical does not work as effectively and the children’s cough syrup now has become 50% less effective.
Will the customers know we switched the chemical by the cough syrup not working as well?
Some customers will but most will just attribute the cough syrup not working as well to the child having a more severe cough.
Did I follow the principal of doing “your best”?
Yes, and I was rewarded by the company allowing me to keep my job.
Now apply this concept to your job, if you are brave enough.
Do you sell the finest prime rib in the county? Are you charging your customers a fair price for that prime rib? Can you put a price on a taste?
Do you work at a call center and waste people’s time so you can meet your job performance stats? Is your wage and job security based on those stats?
Do you produce a printer that consumes print cartridges at a fast rate? Could you build a cheaper printer that utilizes print cartridges more effectively? Will you loose your job because you are not securing your company those print cartridge sales?
Now apply this logic to the Walt Disney Corporation.
Is there a reason to cut the Torch Lightning Ceremony?
Probably because reports showed the attendance dropping or perhaps they lost the contract for the supplier of the torch fuel/torch maintenance. Did somebody do their job by recommending they cut the Torch ceremony?
Do they need to build new attractions to keep park attendance?
I would wager that reports show that majority of people coming to Walt Disney World are there to see the current or traditional attractions. How many new attractions a year are needed to satisfy an average WDW customer? Is it someone’s job to make sure they don’t build too many new attractions?
Do they need to upgrade Stars Tours or Space Mountain?
If reports still show the rides with record attendance then I wager they are not going to upgrade them unless they have “loose” funds lying around. Do you imagine that someone has a job recommending they do not upgrade those attractions?
To wrap up my point.
Everyday you, I, and Mickey Mouse make job decision that harm, inconvenience, or “rip off” customers and general society. If you wish to change things gain employment at the Walt Disney Corporation, work your way up, and convince people/management to carry out the changes you think are best. However, I imagine those decisions will still harm, inconvenience, or “rip off” someone.
Personally wish me luck because I have my sights on obtaining a occupation at WDW. There I hope to keep the parks doing what they are designed to do, entertain people and make money.
Happy Holidays
After reading all 36 pages of post I will attempt to make a insightful comment based on the general "vibe" I am getting.
In moments of crisis I always find it a good time to reflect. Considering the current situation the term crisis may be warranted.
In this country it is expected in majority of occupations to do “your best”. What qualifies as “your best” sometimes does not mean what is best for society. Here is a drastic example.
Let us pretend I work for a major pharmaceutical company. My job is a finical analyst. My job performance is based on how much money I save in production of product lines. I discover that we can save millions by switching a chemical in our children’s cough medicine. All reports from the vendor of the substitute chemical say it will work just as good as our current chemical. I recommend this change and the substitution happens. The company saves money and my job performance score goes up. A layoff occurs and I am not laid off because my job performance score recently went up.
Unknown to me the vendor’s reports were inaccurate (which happens 99% of the time). The substitute chemical does not work as effectively and the children’s cough syrup now has become 50% less effective.
Will the customers know we switched the chemical by the cough syrup not working as well?
Some customers will but most will just attribute the cough syrup not working as well to the child having a more severe cough.
Did I follow the principal of doing “your best”?
Yes, and I was rewarded by the company allowing me to keep my job.
Now apply this concept to your job, if you are brave enough.
Do you sell the finest prime rib in the county? Are you charging your customers a fair price for that prime rib? Can you put a price on a taste?
Do you work at a call center and waste people’s time so you can meet your job performance stats? Is your wage and job security based on those stats?
Do you produce a printer that consumes print cartridges at a fast rate? Could you build a cheaper printer that utilizes print cartridges more effectively? Will you loose your job because you are not securing your company those print cartridge sales?
Now apply this logic to the Walt Disney Corporation.
Is there a reason to cut the Torch Lightning Ceremony?
Probably because reports showed the attendance dropping or perhaps they lost the contract for the supplier of the torch fuel/torch maintenance. Did somebody do their job by recommending they cut the Torch ceremony?
Do they need to build new attractions to keep park attendance?
I would wager that reports show that majority of people coming to Walt Disney World are there to see the current or traditional attractions. How many new attractions a year are needed to satisfy an average WDW customer? Is it someone’s job to make sure they don’t build too many new attractions?
Do they need to upgrade Stars Tours or Space Mountain?
If reports still show the rides with record attendance then I wager they are not going to upgrade them unless they have “loose” funds lying around. Do you imagine that someone has a job recommending they do not upgrade those attractions?
To wrap up my point.
Everyday you, I, and Mickey Mouse make job decision that harm, inconvenience, or “rip off” customers and general society. If you wish to change things gain employment at the Walt Disney Corporation, work your way up, and convince people/management to carry out the changes you think are best. However, I imagine those decisions will still harm, inconvenience, or “rip off” someone.
Personally wish me luck because I have my sights on obtaining a occupation at WDW. There I hope to keep the parks doing what they are designed to do, entertain people and make money.
Happy Holidays
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
And that's the key. There are too many people who want to criticize things like AE and yet have no trouble with the Speedway or Toontown style things being all over the park. Just because adults can physically do something doesn't mean it is a family attraction. The Magic Carpets of Aladdin were no more of a family attraction than AE was. And too many people feel differently and I think that is a shame. Not everything designed for kids is automatically "family". And that's fine, kids need things specifically aimed at them too. Just don't forget the adults in the parks too, Disney.
nibblesandbits
Well-Known Member
I agree with you that the MK should not just have rides that appealt to kids. Totally and 100%...as I constantly go just me and my hubby. No kids in sight for us yet. But there's a difference between ride that scares people in a fun way (the HM) and a ride that scares people in a way that makes them want to pooh their pants (AE.)
Now, sure, there are some rides like the HM that scare more people than others, but I would bet that the build up for that is worse than the bite and that's the part that scares people more than anything.
For AE, there was a build up, sure...but I don't think any sort of build up could prepare people for what was inside. I mean, like I said, it scared the daylights out of me, a 16 year old, someone who knows it's all fake. I was visably shaken myself.
So, yes, I think there should be more options for all involved, but there still needs to be some sort of "pixie dust" inherent b/c it is the MK...I think Big Thunder, Space, and Splash all accomplish this. They're built for the more adult set, but, can appeal to people of just about all ages, inherently. But AE took things to a whole other level. One that had no pixie dust included what-so-ever. Just scare the pants off you dust! :lol:
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
I had a feeling that might be the case.
:lol:I know some people think it was a triumph of subtle wit on par with Monty Python. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying it was hard for me to catch the sublime levity inherent in the "mother-in-law" quip over all the people screaming bloody murder in my ear.
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
The last two or three years the attraction normally had 15 minute waits during a normal summer day. Not all that bad considering that it was a continually loading show. Now just look at the waits SGE is having after only being open a few years. It is in a constant state of walk on (except for the extremely busy season, of course). A queue hardly ever forms and they take walk ins all the until the doors to the first preshow close.
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
I had a feeling that might be the case.
I know some people think it was a triumph of subtle wit on par with Monty Python. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying it was hard for me to catch the sublime levity inherent in the "mother-in-law" quip over all the people screaming bloody murder in my ear.
:lol:
You know, in the 50+ times I saw the attraction, I never was really in a theater that had THAT much screaming. And I only noticed a handful of upset children as well. Certainly no more than what you see at the It's Tough To Be A Bug exit :animwink:
nibblesandbits
Well-Known Member
:ROFLOL::ROFLOL:
The original topic was such a waste of typing, who cares?
Of course...
nibblesandbits
Well-Known Member
Oh, he did not just bust out TTBAB...:lol:
Although, I will readily admit, that isn't one of my favorite attractions either...and the scare factor is relatively high, however, note, TTBAB is not in the MK, but instead the AK, a park that isn't known for pixie dust...Philharmagic, a much lighter (note...possibly more kid friendly) AND still entertaining 3D show was put into the MK.
imagineer boy
Well-Known Member
Well said!
Its pretty much obvious that the management has dumbed down WDW so much that its once again gotten its false reputation for being "just for kids." Every commercial I see for WDW, you just see parents with their 5 or 6 year old kids riding dumbo or the tea cups. Rides like AE could be used in the marketing and convey that the parks are indeed not for kids and can appeal to teens also.
jt04
Well-Known Member
nibblesandbits
Well-Known Member
:lol:
No...won't get on it. I know better. :lookaroun
(Plus, I meant the scare factor for kids...it is a ride that any and all can ride...ROTM is not a ride that any and all can ride...it has a height requirement.)
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
I'm very glad to see that people seem to be fed up with the current state of the MK. I've been saying it for years and now it seems others are feeling the same way. I also hope others will join me in letting City Hall know our feelings about the park and then can write the Disney company as well. Hopefully people like us can let Disney know our feelings and we can start to see some positive changes. Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised to see things like the Carousel of Progress and Country Bear Jamboree replaced with meet and greets or character buffets.
It sure would be nice to walk into the MK and get the same feeling I had in 1995 or the same feeling I have when walking into Disneyland. And if they really wanted to, Disney could bring the magic back to that park.
It sure would be nice to walk into the MK and get the same feeling I had in 1995 or the same feeling I have when walking into Disneyland. And if they really wanted to, Disney could bring the magic back to that park.
jt04
Well-Known Member
Ahh, but it is tons of fun. I'd really like to see a ride that is more frightening, even beyond AE and RotM. I can see what you mean about ITTBAB however.
wvdisneyfamily
Well-Known Member
:roflol: