Slash and Burn ...

[nibblesandbits]

:roflol:

freudian slip? :lol:

 

[EpcotServo]

:lol:

You know, in the 50+ times I saw the attraction, I never was really in a theater that had THAT much screaming. And I only noticed a handful of upset children as well. Certainly no more than what you see at the It's Tough To Be A Bug exit :animwink:

Actually (To my surprise) that I now ride Tough to be a Bug more often, kids aren't scared of it anymore. I'd say the last ten times I've been on it, no screaming/crying at all. A far cry from what my memories serves from 1998.
:lol: :shrug:

Look, I LOVE AE. "Doubt is the rust of a feeble mind." is perhaps the best line in any attraction EVER.

But unlike Horizons, 20K, or Imagination, I'm glad it's gone. It had a good run. It terrorized MILLIONS of innocent, dumb, guests before the jig was up. Stitch may be terrible in most people's minds, but even so: AE had to go.

This is my FINAL THOUGHT on the matter, because my usual rule is what Lee says goes...
:lol:

 

[Lee]

Just because adults can physically do something doesn't mean it is a family attraction. The Magic Carpets of Aladdin were no more of a family attraction than AE was. And too many people feel differently and I think that is a shame. Not everything designed for kids is automatically "family". And that's fine, kids need things specifically aimed at them too. Just don't forget the adults in the parks too, Disney.

VERY well said. A ride like Dumbo is a kids ride, that adults can physically ride even though it has little or no appeal to them.
I see nothing at all wrong with an attraction like AE existing in the MK, with not only warning signs, but a strict "No guest under X years of age allowed."
Let the kids go drive the go-karts or fly the Astro Orbiter.

But there's a difference between ride that scares people in a fun way (the HM) and a ride that scares people in a way that makes them want to pooh their pants (AE.)

A matter of perspective. To me, AE was scary in a fun way. Just like going to a horror film. You jump, you cringe, you laugh, you come out smiling....nothing wrong with that.

Just wondering, have you experienced RotM at Universal?

Yes! I love it.
Exactly the type of attraction that the MK needs. Lots of fun, very well themed and aimed squarely at guests over, say...13. No little kids allowed.
MUCH needed at MK.

It sure would be nice to walk into the MK and get the same feeling I had in 1995 or the same feeling I have when walking into Disneyland

As I have said many times....Disneyland is far superior to the MK. Getting more so all the time......

 

[EpcotServo]

As I have said many times....Disneyland is far superior to the MK. Getting more so all the time......

You have to say it? I thought that it was a law of nature...like gravity or something. Everyone should know that.
:lol:

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

You have to say it? I thought that it was a law of nature...like gravity or something. Everyone should know that.
:lol:

Total drift here, but I've just realized, Walt Disney World doesn't really deserve Adventurers Club. BUT if it were built at Disneyland, (maybe with two entrances, one from Adventureland and one from Downtown Disney, like I suggested for Magic Kingdom in another thread), I bet that place would be hoppin' every single night!

 

[CaptainMichael]

Total drift here, but I've just realized, Walt Disney World doesn't really deserve Adventurers Club. BUT if it were built at Disneyland, (maybe with two entrances, one from Adventureland and one from Downtown Disney, like I suggested for Magic Kingdom in another thread), I bet that place would be hoppin' every single night!

But then I would have to fly to California:dazzle: You're right though, they would appreciate it more. However, I see no reason why it can't exist on both coasts like it was once rumored:drevil:

 

[tirian]

You have to say it? I thought that it was a law of nature...like gravity or something. Everyone should know that.
:lol:

No, it's actually recent. WDW has traditionally whipped DL's butt. Yet ever since the 50th, money has been invested heavily into DL, and WDW's management problems have become undeniably obvious.

 

[Lee]

No, it's actually recent. WDW has traditionally whipped DL's butt. Yet ever since the 50th, money has been invested heavily into DL, and WDW's management problems have become undeniably obvious.

Not just the infusion of money, which helps, but also in ride mix, atmosphere, beauty, upkeep.....

 

[tirian]

Not just the infusion of money, which helps, but also in ride mix, atmosphere, beauty, upkeep.....

...and caring. :animwink:


I'm the first one to point out that the MK has been getting much-needed refurbishments, but it's also not getting the full TLC it needs (and deserves) because management isn't interested in doing much more than the status quo.

 

[EpcotServo]

No, it's actually recent. WDW has traditionally whipped DL's butt. Yet ever since the 50th, money has been invested heavily into DL, and WDW's management problems have become undeniably obvious.

No, I was there before the 50th, and it was better back then too.
:lol:

 

[tirian]

No, I was there before the 50th, and it was better back then too.
:lol:

It depends on how far back you go, as well as what you consider...

» WDW's TL is still better than DL's, Space Mt. notwithstanding. WDW once had an updated Space, AE, TTA, CoP, BLSRS, and Timekeeper. DL had Rocket Rods. Woooooo.

» WDW's Toad was way better than DL's. So was 20K. The dark rides missing from the MK didn't matter because WDW had EPCOT Center and D-MGM.

» The HM, Splash, and BTMRR were all enlarged and improved at WDW.

» The castle is a matter of opinion. I prefer Cinderella's grandeur; I know people who enjoy looking for Sleeping Beauty's with binoculars.

» For nearly 3 decades, the only dark ride significantly better at DL was POTC, and it's still better. :lol:

When the 50th preparations began, DL had to rebuild several attractions as well as the castle's facade, and don't forget about the BTMRR issues. Its old management didn't care, and the DL-centric web forums complained how WDW got all the love. That sure changed fast.

(I'm going out with some friends, so if anybody replies and it takes a while to get a response, you know why.)

 

[Wilt Dasney]

VERY well said. A ride like Dumbo is a kids ride, that adults can physically ride even though it has little or no appeal to them.
I see nothing at all wrong with an attraction like AE existing in the MK, with not only warning signs, but a strict "No guest under X years of age allowed."
Let the kids go drive the go-karts or fly the Astro Orbiter.

That might have been the key, to let people know it wasn't "Disney" scary (e.g., Bambi's mom dying), but the real deal.

A PG-13 attraction in the middle of what's marketed as a G-rated resort needed more than a few warning signs, IMO.

 

[KevinPage]

:bs:

 

[Animaniac93-98]

That might have been the key, to let people know it wasn't "Disney" scary (e.g., Bambi's mom dying), but the real deal.

A PG-13 attraction in the middle of what's marketed as a G-rated resort needed more than a few warning signs, IMO.

To me "Disney" scary includes The Watcher in the Woods, Return to Oz, Something Wicked This Way Comes, The Black Cauldron, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Darby 'O Gill and the Little People, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, The Black Hole etc. One of the things I hate about Disney today is the fear of fear itself. Everything must be so hopelessly kid friendly/safe that nothing can ever be suspenseful or scary (this is both films and theme parks) with rare exceptions like Everest. Suspense is a good and essential part to any story (like humour, romance etc) and the MK should be about living all aspects of a great story. kids cry coming out of Snow White and that arguably has less popularity or cult following that AE had, plus AE came off as original and not a shabby marketing ploy. I never experienced it for myself in person, but from seeing videos, hearing audio, viewing images and riding Stitch (which is like AE with a different coat of paint) I get the idea and am sad to see something truly original and exciting leave the park.

Disney was never really G rated, but rather entertainment that appealed to adults who never lost their childhood spirit and could possibly share that with kids. Why do you think Treasure Island had to be edited for violence in it's 1975 re-issue or why Disney got suck flak for scary kids in his cartoons? The New York Times questioned the dragon fight in Sleeping Beauty and kids wet their pants watching Snow White (which led to radio city Music Hall charging Disney to replace the seat cushions). Only today has Disney become a parody of what it always represented by making rides and movies with narrow minded target audiences in mind.

AE was in no way any more questionable than some of Disney's earlier or later (Pirates movies anyone?) efforts and was quite suitable for MK on the grounds of it's effective use of technology and storytelling. If parents couldn't be bothered to read the warnings that's their own freakin' fault. It's "scariness" was well documented and in many cases celebrated by official and unofficial sources alike and unfortunately too many guests feel the need to check their brains and the door and complain later.

As a side note, I thought Stitch got more complaints than AE for being scary because it was marketed to little kids who got terrified anyway.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

AE was in no way any more questionable than some of Disney's earlier or later (Pirates movies anyone?) efforts and was quite suitable for MK on the grounds of it's effective use of technology and storytelling. If parents couldn't be bothered to read the warnings that's their own freakin' fault.

This is where we enter the magical realm of subjective opinion, of course.

I'm sitting here thinking of the examples you provided in your post (some of which I had in mind myself when I typed the earlier post and just settled on Bambi as the easiest example) and trying to be honest with myself about whether they approach AE. I'm coming down on the side of no, but I guess it is a thin line with some of them. Suspense in itself isn't a problem, of course. Without it you don't have much of a narrative.

I still think AE was a different animal entirely. It wasn't the type of suspense that you get watching Snow White or Sleeping Beauty wondering if Good will beat Evil. It was more like (if you didn't know it wasn't real) "Will I live through this, or will this winged demon splattering other people's blood in my face end up biting my head off?" Great if you're a teenager who's into horror flicks, I guess. But even a kid tough enough to handle Sleeping Beauty would have been challenged by it.

Your point about the Pirates movies is a good one. They're definitely not your "typical" Disney fare, but they fit in fine. They're also rated appropriately, and movie ratings have enough street cred to give most parents pause, even if there's a Disney logo.

Which brings me back to these darn parents, who were dumb enough to drag their kids into a show that was CLEARLY MARKED as inappropriate for them. It looks like I'm holding the fort alone on this one, but I'm just not so eager to criticize people for believing that the Magic Kingdom was exactly what Disney has made it out to be in their multi-million dollar global marketing campaigns for the better part of four decades...and thus discounting a couple of signs. I think Lee had the right idea earlier. There should have been some kind of age limit at the door.

At any rate, your post did provide some food for thought and even if we differ on AE specifically, I agree with your general point that the entertainment the company puts out currently doesn't hold much of a candle to its offerings in the past.

 

[dxwwf3]

As a side note, I thought Stitch got more complaints than AE for being scary because it was marketed to little kids who got terrified anyway.

Many Tomorrowland CM's have told me the same thing in the park (My AE shirts almost always spark conversations). The difference is that SGE pushes plush. It's amazing how complaints fall on deaf ears when plush is involved :lol:

 

[EpcotServo]

Many Tomorrowland CM's have told me the same thing in the park (My AE shirts almost always spark conversations). The difference is that SGE pushes plush. It's amazing how complaints fall on deaf ears when plush is involved :lol:

So I'll just be taking those Skippy plushes back then...

:lol:

(Just kidding! )

 

[dxwwf3]

So I'll just be taking those Skippy plushes back then...

:lol:

(Just kidding! )

:lol:

One thing I can't deny, Stitch merchandise sells a lot better than AE merchandise did. But when selling merchandise is the top consideration in determining attractions at the parks, something is messed up.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

:lol:

One thing I can't deny, Stitch merchandise sells a lot better than AE merchandise did. But when selling merchandise is the top consideration in determining attractions at the parks, something is messed up.

And I think that neatly sums up what's wrong with WDW. Plush>Quality attractions. remember when we could have both? Damn those were good days. Of course, plus is one thing Disney still gets right. The new Bolt plushes are soooo soft and huggable, especially the big one with the fuzzy tail and the wow I'm getting off topic.

As for AE, correct it's scares were not of the good vs evil variety, but it was contained and isolated and of course you did survive and escape and enter the rest of the happy MK environment once you were done the show. As they sing in Nightmare Before Christmas "Life's no fun without a good scare" and in the MK there is the reassuring notion that all will end in happy endings no matter how big the obstacle may seem. A warning sign with a MPAA style rating out front would have helped though. Maybe one in huge red letters.

Oh and Hocus Pocus and The Haunted Mansion movies were also criticized for being scary for kids so the spooks do occasionally pop up in Disney now and then but it's rarer now.

 

[Lee]

But when selling merchandise is the top consideration in determining attractions at the parks, something is messed up.

That, as I see it, is the MK's (and to a lesser extent the other parks) major tragedy at this point.
It's become like network television. Execs couldn't care less about putting on a quality show, just so long as it keeps butts in the seats long enough to see five commercial breaks every hour. The actual shows are just bridges to get you from one advertisement to another.
At MK, everything is focused on selling things. The merchandise locations outnumber the actual attractions. A ride is almost an advertisement to entice a guest to buy a related toy or shirt.

The best ride concept in the world would get shot down if it wasn't guaranteed to sell tons of merchandise.