Pleasure Island Changes

[unkadug]

They could have expanded Downtown Disney without closing Pleasure Island.

There was room to expand, simply by rearranging some parking areas. I still stand by my claim that it was simply a decision based upon prior bad decisions.

I blame management.

 

[Lee]

They could have expanded Downtown Disney without closing Pleasure Island.

There was room to expand, simply by rearranging some parking areas. I still stand by my claim that it was simply a decision based upon prior bad decisions.

I blame management.

Exactly.

 

[WDW1974]

Yes, but what is the reason for that?

The economy? Mismanagement? A little of both? What I am saying is that we can't be sure what the reason is, therefore any analysis at this point is bunk.

I'd say it was both, more the economy.

ALTHOUGH ... smart management might have noticed the signs starting in early 2007 when they first really began to appear by early last year they may have noticed that things were looking much worse in many sectors and done something I would have anyway, closed PI immediately ... not given people months notice. Just closed it ... and signed those tenants as quickly as possible.

Then ... those places would either be open by now or close to it and they wouldn't have an empty dead mess ... but that's hindsight.

As to analysis, that's not what we're here for (at least I don't think so) ... we're here for discussion and debate.

 

[jt04]

They could have expanded Downtown Disney without closing Pleasure Island.

There was room to expand, simply by rearranging some parking areas. I still stand by my claim that it was simply a decision based upon prior bad decisions.

I blame management.

Disney does not want to cater to independent teens (not accompanied by parents) and childless singles. Universal does. This ain't rocket science.

 

[EpcotServo]

Exactly.
They cooked up a nice, flashy power-point presentation, backed it up with faulty, skewed surveys* and said "See...we save money and this is what guests want!" Done.
Nevermind the fact that no third parties had "signed on the line which is dotted", at the time PI closed. They were just sure they would line up in droves.
Wrong.




*Per information I have received, the surveys were worded in such a way as to lead to the desired conclusion.
For example, something like:
Survey - "Would you like more shopping and dining options a Downtown Disney?"
Guest - "Well, sure."

None of the surveys said anything like:
Survey - "Would you like us to close some of the existing locations, such as Adv Club, or Comedy Warehouse to make room for more shopping and dining?"

There was no trend in guest respnses that indicated that they would favor closing existing locations. They believed the new stuff would be in addition to what was already there.

Jerks.

This is how I see it...

http://splicd.com/-OXV1XvkIIg/95/153

:lol:

 

[Captain Hank]

They could have expanded Downtown Disney without closing Pleasure Island.

There was room to expand, simply by rearranging some parking areas. I still stand by my claim that it was simply a decision based upon prior bad decisions.

I blame management.

Heck, they really didn't even need to shuffle things that much. There was the whole empty swath of buildings between Adventurers Club and Rock 'n Roll Beach Club (and later, RNRBC itself). Furthermore, there were some clubs that were obviously under-performing, such as Motion and BET Soundstage that could have easily been re-developed into new venues, night club or otherwise, without seriously impacting the Pleasure Island environment. There are also a few potential expansion points in DTD West Side that are sitting unused (here, I'm thinking about the space between Bongos and Wetzel's Pretzels).

 

[WDW1974]

Disney does not want to cater to independent teens (not accompanied by parents) and childless singles. Universal does. This ain't rocket science.

PI didn't cater to independent teens considering they had age requirements to enter clubs.

And what makes you think (I hesitate asking) that only childless singles enjoy going to clubs or drinking ... even on family vacations?

Seriously. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that most of those people going to clubs at CityWalk likely are couples or people who are on family vacations.

 

[WDW1974]

Heck, they really didn't even need to shuffle things that much. There was the whole empty swath of buildings between Adventurers Club and Rock 'n Roll Beach Club (and later, RNRBC itself). Furthermore, there were some clubs that were obviously under-performing, such as Motion and BET Soundstage that could have easily been re-developed into new venues, night club or otherwise, without seriously impacting the Pleasure Island environment. There are also a few potential expansion points in DTD West Side that are sitting unused (here, I'm thinking about the space between Bongos and Wetzel's Pretzels).

Yes, exactly.

But you see having clubs like Motion and BET fail were part of the master plan.

If you want to kill something at Disney, you ignore it, let it grow stale, don't advertise it, have it open and close at staggered times or let guests know it exists ... etc ... we call this The Horizons Strategy.

 

[CaptainMichael]

Disney does not want to cater to independent teens (not accompanied by parents) and childless singles. Universal does. This ain't rocket science.

You're correct, that's actually stupid thinking for a resort that for years has tried to pass itself off as the vacation destination for everyone (read that as all ages, relationships, sexes, religions, etc....everyone).

 

[unkadug]

Disney does not want to cater to independent teens (not accompanied by parents) and childless singles. Universal does. This ain't rocket science.

I can't believe you said that.

Any company would have to be pretty short sighted to narrow themselves down to such a narrow demographic.

 

[CaptainMichael]

I can't believe you said that.

Any company would have to be pretty short sighted to narrow themselves down to such a narrow demographic.

Jeeze unkadug, don't you know the only demographic Disney wants is the traditional husband and wife + 2.5 kids family demographic...you know, the ones that need all those family suites they've been building everywhere?

 

[jakeman]

I'd say it was both, more the economy.

ALTHOUGH ... smart management might have noticed the signs starting in early 2007 when they first really began to appear by early last year they may have noticed that things were looking much worse in many sectors and done something I would have anyway, closed PI immediately ... not given people months notice. Just closed it ... and signed those tenants as quickly as possible.

Then ... those places would either be open by now or close to it and they wouldn't have an empty dead mess ... but that's hindsight.

As to analysis, that's not what we're here for (at least I don't think so) ... we're here for discussion and debate.

I usually look for the brightside in most situations and I know you and I have disagreed (even though I don't post near as much as you do). I don't buy that Horizons was a conspiracy or Mr. Toad should have been kept, but I watched PI for several years and it was pretty apparent to me that Disney killed the island on purpose.

I'm not sure anyone can look at the sequence of events regarding the island and not see that. It was either calculated or incredibility stupid.

I also think that the problem with PI was most likely incredibly complicated issue that we probably only scratch the surface of.

 

[jt04]

PI didn't cater to independent teens considering they had age requirements to enter clubs.

And what makes you think (I hesitate asking) that only childless singles enjoy going to clubs or drinking ... even on family vacations?

Seriously. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that most of those people going to clubs at CityWalk likely are couples or people who are on family vacations.

Seriously. Disney wants a nighttime entertainment complex for families. I never said they didn't want teens or singles but even the combination of these demographics is tiny compared to families staying on property. Disney has made the decision to cater to the majority of those families over the smaller numbers of teens and singles. You are right that some adults staying at Disney might want to leave their kids behind for a "night out" while at Disney. But again, this number is small compared to the number of families who would rather experience WDW together even for evening attractions.

Of course Disney has options for that "night out" and that is the resort clubs. And of course, if someone wants a "mardi gras" type experience, there is always City Walk or New Orleans or Vegas.:shrug:

 

[CaptainMichael]

if someone wants a "mardi gras" type experience, there is always City Walk or New Orleans or Vegas.:shrug:

New Orleans is really the only option on that list, and the second option, Moblile, AL (where it originates) isn't even on your list.

Everyone should come down to NOLA to experience Mardi Gras the proper way at least once in their lives.

 

[unkadug]

I usually look for the brightside in most situations and I know you and I have disagreed (even though I don't post near as much as you do). I don't buy that Horizons was a conspiracy or Mr. Toad should have been kept, but I watched PI for several years and it was pretty apparent to me that Disney killed the island on purpose.

I'm not sure anyone can look at the sequence of events regarding the island and not see that. It was either calculated or incredibility stupid.

I also think that the problem with PI was most likely incredibly complicated issue that we probably only scratch the surface of.

I vote for incredibly stupid.

Seriously. Disney wants a nighttime entertainment complex for families. I never said they didn't want teens or singles but even the combination of these demographics is tiny compared to families staying on property. Disney has made the decision to cater to the majority of those families over the smaller numbers of teens and singles. You are right that some adults staying at Disney might want to leave their kids behind for a "night out" while at Disney. But again, this number is small compared to the number of families who would rather experience WDW together even at night.

Of course Disney has options for that "night out" and that is the resort clubs. And of course, if someone wants a "mardi gras" type experience, there is always City Walk or New Orleans or Vegas.:shrug:

With just a little bit of forethought and some corrective planning, they could have had both.

 

[jakeman]

Seriously. Disney wants a nighttime entertainment complex for families. I never said they didn't want teens or singles but the even the combination of this demographic is tiny compared to families staying on property. Disney has made the decision to cater to majority of those families over the smaller numbers of teens and singles. You are right that some adults staying at Disney might want to leave their kids behind for a "night out" while at Disney. But again, this number is small compared to the number of families who would rather experience WDW together even at night.

Of course Disney has options for that "night out" and that is the resort clubs. And of course, if someone wants a "mardi gras" type experience, there is always City Walk or New Orleans or Vegas.:shrug:

Okay, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I am going to try and articulate what I think are your points a little better for you.

Disney had a nightclub area wedged inbetween two "family" zones creating several issues and has choosen to convert the area to cater to a more representative demographic of their guest at the expense of a smaller demographic.

You are also saying that Disney feels that there are enough nightclub opportunities scatter throughout the rest of property.

Let me know if this is incorrect.

My opinion, is the empy PI area is the place that is hurting most on property right now, more than any other area. This is a huge track of land that is essentially abandoned. It is the equivalent of shuttering Liberty Square.

 

[Captain Hank]

Seriously. Disney wants a nighttime entertainment complex for families. I never said they didn't want teens or singles but even the combination of these demographics is tiny compared to families staying on property. Disney has made the decision to cater to the majority of those families over the smaller numbers of teens and singles. You are right that some adults staying at Disney might want to leave their kids behind for a "night out" while at Disney. But again, this number is small compared to the number of families who would rather experience WDW together even for evening attractions.

Of course Disney has options for that "night out" and that is the resort clubs. And of course, if someone wants a "mardi gras" type experience, there is always City Walk or New Orleans or Vegas.:shrug:

You're overlooking the fact that two huge family-friendly venues already exist: Downtown Disney Marketplace and Downtown Disney West Side. Of course, these are in addition to multiple family-friendly dinner shows and other forms of entertainment, not to mention the parks themselves. Disney already has more-than-sufficient family entertainment venues, most of which could (relatively) easily be expanded if necessary.

 

[jt04]

I can't believe you said that.

Any company would have to be pretty short sighted to narrow themselves down to such a narrow demographic.

Universal is definitely marketing to singles, like it or not. Didn't say they don't want famalies too, but singles are a huge part of their business model. No doubt about it.

 

[jt04]

You're overlooking the fact that two huge family-friendly venues already exist: Downtown Disney Marketplace and Downtown Disney West Side. Of course, these are in addition to multiple family-friendly dinner shows and other forms of entertainment, not to mention the parks themselves. Disney already has more-than-sufficient family entertainment venues, most of which could (relatively) easily be expanded if necessary.

Not at night! And Disney aims to fix that and they will.

 

[CaptainMichael]

Disney had a nightclub area wedged inbetween two "family" zones creating several issues and has choosen to convert the area to cater to a more representative demographic of their guest at the expense of a smaller demographic.

Do we all agree that Westside really is a "family" zone. Save for the candy store, the theatre, and Disneyquest (which guests would most likely go to before PI opened) it's pretty much an extension of PI...Cigars, Bongos, HoB, and Cirque.:shrug:

Disney could have had their cake and ate it too by just building more dining and shopping along the parking lot side of PI connecting Marketplace and Westside and putting gates at the entrances of PI back.