New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[Chi84]

Oh. I thought I was asked for the numbers. My bad.

You were. Thank you for responding.

 

[jaklgreen]

Totally agree. They could also limit rerides. At the very least a max of 1 das use per ILL attraction.

That is not equal access per the ADA though. Because healthy people are not limited to only riding something one time. That is a horrible idea that really should put a bad taste in anyone's mouth. Some of you keep forgetting that DAS is not a front of the line pass. People wait whatever the posted standby time is and then wait some more in the LL.

 

[jaklgreen]

Happy to help. Here's the thread with the numbers we counted back in September. I was told on Tuesday afternoon by someone who actually knows, "You're in the ballpark. I wouldn't have done it that way." (I may have said something about their coffee budget being larger than my company in response.)

If you read that and think there's no possible way that 45% of guests at Space Mountain were using DAS and 40% of guests at Peter Pan, let me provide more data:

• In this 2020 lawsuit filed against Disney in the US District Court in Orlando, the court noted that these data collected by Disney about Guest Assistance Card (GAC) use were both unchallenged by the plantiffs and convincing to the court (emphasis mine):
  
  In a two-week study conducted by Disney's Industrial Engineering team in April 2013, the team found that GAC pass usage at five of the most popular attractions at Disney (the "GAC Study") was much higher than the percentage of guests in the park who held a GAC pass.
  
  At that time, approximately 3.3% of guests at Disney used a GAC pass, yet the percentage of guests on the most popular rides who had a GAC pass and entered through the FastPass line was significantly higher than 3.3%.
  
  The GAC Study showed that 11% of riders on Space Mountain, 13% of riders on Splash Mountain, and 30% on Toy Story Mania used a GAC pass to access the ride.
  
  Disney's industrial engineers concluded that the small portion of the guest population who held GAC pass was consuming a substantial portion of the ride capacity.
  
  For example, guests with a GAC pass were riding Toy Story Mania an average of ten times more than guests who did not have a GAC pass.
  
  Cite: A.L. v. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts US, Inc., 469 F. Supp. 3d 1280, 1294 (M.D. Fla. 2020). The quote above is on the right-hand side of page 9.
  
  
• So 3.3% of the people in the park were using 30% of Toy Story's ride capacity.
  
  
• Disney said on Tuesday that use of the system has tripled in the last 5 years. (Second cite here.)

Okay, so if back in 2013, 3.3% of guests were using 30% of ride capacity at a popular ride, and use has tripled since then, you'd think roughly 33% to 90% of riders on popular rides were using DAS to access the ride.

The numbers we estimated were in the lower end of that range.

The top end of that range is too high, but it's closer to right than wrong. If you said 50-75% of Lightning Lane use at popular attractions was DAS, I would absolutely believe that.

My issue with this is the GAC was an instant, front of the line access. So that meant the people could easily ride things over and over to get those numbers. DAS people wait the posted standby time, so they are not riding even remotely close to the amount of times that someone could with GAC. So you really can't use those numbers to estimate DAS use because it is not the same type of accommodation.

 

[Splash4eva]

Totally agree. They could also limit rerides. At the very least a max of 1 das use per ILL attraction.

Ive said that as well but they couldnt get away with bc then you are not giving them the same experience as regular guests but honestly it is something they should do. Listen im guilty of re riding certain attractions does that make me someone who “abuses” the system. Not really but i know others who would disagree. There is no perfect system but there are things they can do to make things better.

 

[Splash4eva]

My issue with this is the GAC was an instant, front of the line access. So that meant the people could easily ride things over and over to get those numbers. DAS people wait the posted standby time, so they are not riding even remotely close to the amount of times that someone could with GAC. So you really can't use those numbers to estimate DAS use because it is not the same type of accommodation.

Agreed. Its not even a remotely close comparison & with inflated wait times your selections are spread out even more. Hence why i still buy Genie + and use both. Listen the “advantage” lies in a couple spots. The 2 pre bookings. Makes no sense why the volunteered this addition especially if they knew the system was overloaded. The new system requiring a 10 min wait will also lessen the load because i would tap in and book another DAS right away. The you have the fact that you can eat dinner and have a ride waiting when you are finished but thats simply the same logic people use when stacking Genie only thing is w DAS you just get the 1.

 

[jaklgreen]

Agreed. Its not even a remotely close comparison & with inflated wait times your selections are spread out even more. Hence why i still buy Genie + and use both. Listen the “advantage” lies in a couple spots. The 2 pre bookings. Makes no sense why the volunteered this addition especially if they knew the system was overloaded. The new system requiring a 10 min wait will also lessen the load because i would tap in and book another DAS right away. The you have the fact that you can eat dinner and have a ride waiting when you are finished but thats simply the same logic people use when stacking Genie only thing is w DAS you just get the 1.

I completely agree and have been saying it since they started it, that those 2 preselects should have never been a thing. I think that is when the abuse started in earnest. I think that they started that as a way to incentivize people to use the online chat. After all, in the beginning, people where waiting 5+ hours just to speak to someone.
I would also be just fine with them not allowing you to go on another ride while you are waiting for your DAS return time. If they got rid of those 2 very reasonable things, I think that DAS would not be so appealing to the cheaters.
I understand though why the DAS return time is open ended. Many can not make that hour window if they are having issues with their disability.

 

[Happyday]

The more I think about it, the more I think that Disney’s return to line idea, if implemented properly, can really be a great solution for most users. Yes, it won’t work for those with neurodivergent disabilities such as autism, so it makes sense that those will still be accommodated with DAS classic, but the ability to hold your place in line while taking a rest / bathroom break / breather / sit down /etc. sounds like a great solution for everyone else. Everyone really needs to give Disney a chance here.

Absolutely!

 

[seabreezept813]

Yes but certain autistic kids only ride the same ride.

Sure it’s a super small segment of DAS users but it would suck for them.

I think that makes sense and it doesn’t tend to be the huge ones RotR etc. But maybe that could just be like an add on and not standard to help minimize some abuse. I’m thinking of what Len said about the connection to open Tiana’s. Would limiting it to one DAS use a day alleviate some of the concern of the capacity of the newest rides, especially those requiring a virtual queue.

 

[Patcheslee]

I note that if Disney's numbers about DAS abuse are to be believed, 3 out of 4 guests in the Lightning Lane are not paying for it. Which means all the revenue Disney's got over these last few years is coming from 1 in 4 guests.

So if Disney can nudge 1 of those 3 into paying for Genie+, they will double their revenue.

How much has party size fluctuated from first implementation for GAS and now? I thought the May 20th was maximum 4 or immediate family, whichever is larger. It seems a reasonable balance for families of 5 or more.

 

[seabreezept813]

That is not equal access per the ADA though. Because healthy people are not limited to only riding something one time. That is a horrible idea that really should put a bad taste in anyone's mouth. Some of you keep forgetting that DAS is not a front of the line pass. People wait whatever the posted standby time is and then wait some more in the LL.

Sorry to be clear my thought was about Tron, Guardians, the ones with virtual queues, which for rhe most part in the first year of opening most guests can only ride once. But the rerides could be an added on accommodation rather than standard, determined at the interview.

 

[Grantwil93]

Happy to help. Here's the thread with the numbers we counted back in September. I was told on Tuesday afternoon by someone who actually knows, "You're in the ballpark. I wouldn't have done it that way." (I may have said something about their coffee budget being larger than my company in response.)

If you read that and think there's no possible way that 45% of guests at Space Mountain were using DAS and 40% of guests at Peter Pan, let me provide more data:

• In this 2020 lawsuit filed against Disney in the US District Court in Orlando, the court noted that these data collected by Disney about Guest Assistance Card (GAC) use were both unchallenged by the plantiffs and convincing to the court (emphasis mine):
  
  In a two-week study conducted by Disney's Industrial Engineering team in April 2013, the team found that GAC pass usage at five of the most popular attractions at Disney (the "GAC Study") was much higher than the percentage of guests in the park who held a GAC pass.
  
  At that time, approximately 3.3% of guests at Disney used a GAC pass, yet the percentage of guests on the most popular rides who had a GAC pass and entered through the FastPass line was significantly higher than 3.3%.
  
  The GAC Study showed that 11% of riders on Space Mountain, 13% of riders on Splash Mountain, and 30% on Toy Story Mania used a GAC pass to access the ride.
  
  Disney's industrial engineers concluded that the small portion of the guest population who held GAC pass was consuming a substantial portion of the ride capacity.
  
  For example, guests with a GAC pass were riding Toy Story Mania an average of ten times more than guests who did not have a GAC pass.
  
  Cite: A.L. v. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts US, Inc., 469 F. Supp. 3d 1280, 1294 (M.D. Fla. 2020). The quote above is on the right-hand side of page 9.
  
  
• So 3.3% of the people in the park were using 30% of Toy Story's ride capacity.
  
  
• Disney said on Tuesday that use of the system has tripled in the last 5 years. (Second cite here.)

Okay, so if back in 2013, 3.3% of guests were using 30% of ride capacity at a popular ride, and use has tripled since then, you'd think roughly 33% to 90% of riders on popular rides were using DAS to access the ride.

The numbers we estimated were in the lower end of that range.

The top end of that range is too high, but it's closer to right than wrong. If you said 50-75% of Lightning Lane use at popular attractions was DAS, I would absolutely believe that.

That 50-75% range is exactly what the ride I work at sees daily, at least when im at the scanning position(just my own observation, we dont have hard numbers available). Pretty cool that you were able to figure this out like this. I don't know what is abuse and is not(frankly, very few ppl are actually qualified to make that determination, none of which are front line CM's), what I can say is I fully believe at least half of the guests in a LL at any given time are using DAS. Which, removed from the abuse conversation, has a huge impact on operations in and of itself. Again, I'm not at all saying I want less ppl being accommodated or anything. Just sharing perspective.

 

[zann285]

Happy to help. Here's the thread with the numbers we counted back in September. I was told on Tuesday afternoon by someone who actually knows, "You're in the ballpark. I wouldn't have done it that way." (I may have said something about their coffee budget being larger than my company in response.)

If you read that and think there's no possible way that 45% of guests at Space Mountain were using DAS and 40% of guests at Peter Pan, let me provide more data:

• In this 2020 lawsuit filed against Disney in the US District Court in Orlando, the court noted that these data collected by Disney about Guest Assistance Card (GAC) use were both unchallenged by the plantiffs and convincing to the court (emphasis mine):
  
  In a two-week study conducted by Disney's Industrial Engineering team in April 2013, the team found that GAC pass usage at five of the most popular attractions at Disney (the "GAC Study") was much higher than the percentage of guests in the park who held a GAC pass.
  
  At that time, approximately 3.3% of guests at Disney used a GAC pass, yet the percentage of guests on the most popular rides who had a GAC pass and entered through the FastPass line was significantly higher than 3.3%.
  
  The GAC Study showed that 11% of riders on Space Mountain, 13% of riders on Splash Mountain, and 30% on Toy Story Mania used a GAC pass to access the ride.
  
  Disney's industrial engineers concluded that the small portion of the guest population who held GAC pass was consuming a substantial portion of the ride capacity.
  
  For example, guests with a GAC pass were riding Toy Story Mania an average of ten times more than guests who did not have a GAC pass.
  
  Cite: A.L. v. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts US, Inc., 469 F. Supp. 3d 1280, 1294 (M.D. Fla. 2020). The quote above is on the right-hand side of page 9.
  
  
• So 3.3% of the people in the park were using 30% of Toy Story's ride capacity.
  
  
• Disney said on Tuesday that use of the system has tripled in the last 5 years. (Second cite here.)

Okay, so if back in 2013, 3.3% of guests were using 30% of ride capacity at a popular ride, and use has tripled since then, you'd think roughly 33% to 90% of riders on popular rides were using DAS to access the ride.

The numbers we estimated were in the lower end of that range.

The top end of that range is too high, but it's closer to right than wrong. If you said 50-75% of Lightning Lane use at popular attractions was DAS, I would absolutely believe that.

Do you have any idea of the percentage of wheelchair and ECV returns for Space Mountain? Since they’re all effectively issued a DAS return if they want to ride, that attraction ironically may just see it’s problem exacerbated by pushing more people to mobility aids.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

These facts are great, but I don’t think anyone is disputing DAS is being abused to an absurd degree.

Oh, I’d say that in this thread and a predecessor thread there were a lot of folks who were arguing that there was very little to no DAS abuse.

 

[shambolicdefending]

Do we have any idea how the "return to line" option will operate? I'm trying envision a scenario that isn't a huge logistical cluster...

 

[hopemax]

So you think they are going to do anything to lower wait times?

If they do that they sell less Genie.

Not going to happen.

They will just reduce staffing or do whatever necessary to keep standby painful.

How about this. We know attendance is an issue. What if it isn't just about prices, but people who refuse to buy Genie+ / ILL are getting sick and tired of slow moving standby lines, especially when the LL backs up and the merge CM starts holding the standby for several minutes, or letting one party in per 100 people in the LL. These families, say, "Enough." And they take the thousands of dollars that they've spent on tickets, hotels, food and merchandise and go home never to return.

Can Disney replace that lost revenue by selling more $15 ILLS and $30 Genie+?

They can't keep the standby line so painful that people go to Universal or Europe instead. Not every guest will transition to Genie+ / I LL. Take your own family: how many additional LL and Genie+ would Disney have to sell to replace the revenue of your family not going anymore?

While I agree Disney would like to sell more Genie+, if they are bleeding other types of families at an unsustainable rate, they can help their bottom line more by relieving pressure on the standby queues at least so they aren't having to hold standby for long periods just to keep up with LL. Wait times probably won't go down. But it maybe won't be like what we keep running into... 65 minute waits turning into a 100 minute wait because at some point the LL gets out of control.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

And I don't know how any return to the line system would work for someone that travels solo. Who would I be returning to?

Perhaps you should wait and see what Disney announces before you reflexively dismiss their solution as unworkable. I still don’t understand how this isn’t a better solution for you. You can’t wait in lines that are more than 20 minutes and there are a decent number of lightning lanes that are more than 20 minutes! I’m going to give Disney the benefit of the doubt that they’re not a bunch of idiots and have a plan to handle solo travelers. Given that this sounds like a much better solution for you.

Well I don't know what to tell you. Many times that I have been to MK, the line for people mover was over 20 minutes long. I know this to be fact because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Wait Times, Lightning Lane Availability, & Dining Reservations | Thrill Data

Use data to power your vacations! Learn what to ride and when with wait times at Disney World, Disneyland, Universal Orlando, Universal Hollywood, Six Flags, Cedar Point, Kings Island and many more.

www.thrill-data.com

1. For the past year, from April 2023 - April 2024, on a month by month basis, the monthly average posted wait time has been:
A: May: 12 minutes;
B: June: 13 minutes;
C: July: 12 minutes;
D: August: 12 minutes;
E: September: 12 minutes;
F: October: 13 minutes;
G: November: 15 minutes;
H: December: 17 minutes;
I: January: 17 minutes
J: February: 16 minutes;
K: March: 15 minutes;
L: April 14 minutes;

It is important to of course not that these are the posted wait times, not the actual wait times, as it is well known that Disney’s wait times are nearly universally inflated to some degree versus actual wait time.

 

[The Mom]

Perhaps you should wait and see what Disney announces before you reflexively dismiss their solution as unworkable. I still don’t understand how this isn’t a better solution for you. You can’t wait in lines that are more than 20 minutes and there are a decent number of lightning lanes that are more than 20 minutes! I’m going to give Disney the benefit of the doubt that they’re not a bunch of idiots and have a plan to handle solo travelers. Given that this sounds like a much better solution for you.

Wait Times, Lightning Lane Availability, & Dining Reservations | Thrill Data

Use data to power your vacations! Learn what to ride and when with wait times at Disney World, Disneyland, Universal Orlando, Universal Hollywood, Six Flags, Cedar Point, Kings Island and many more.

www.thrill-data.com

1. For the past year, from April 2023 - April 2024, on a month by month basis, the monthly average posted wait time has been:
A: May: 12 minutes;
B: June: 13 minutes;
C: July: 12 minutes;
D: August: 12 minutes;
E: September: 12 minutes;
F: October: 13 minutes;
G: November: 15 minutes;
H: December: 17 minutes;
I: January: 17 minutes
J: February: 16 minutes;
K: March: 15 minutes;
L: April 14 minutes;

It is important to of course not that these are the posted wait times, not the actual wait times, as it is well known that Disney’s wait times are nearly universally inflated to some degree versus actual wait time.

Please note that these are average times, not times for specific days during a specific time frame. So, the times could be less than 12 minutes - even 0 - and more than 17 minutes - even 20+

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Do we have any idea how the "return to line" option will operate? I'm trying envision a scenario that isn't a huge logistical cluster...

If Disney has excelled at one thing over the years above all else it’s crowd and line management. I’m cautiously optimistic that this isn’t going to be the cluster**** that people think it will be.

 

[flynnibus]

For the past year, from April 2023 - April 2024, on a month by month basis, the monthly average posted wait time has been:

Also important to note that average doesn’t tell you the deviation either… and for a number like 15 to be average… you’d expect a lot of times to be greater than 15

 

[Mattrg_2000]

40 minute queue in the haunted mansion would trigger just as many people as a 75 minute queue for 7DMT, IMO. Expecially with the mix down after the stretching room.

This is so true! Haunted Mansion. When you’re crammed in the space after the stretching room and the ride/treadmill stops. That is so claustrophobic! ‘Deep breaths, we’ll be moving again soon.’ Freaks me out every time.