MM+ Why we can't have nice things.

[flynnibus]

Well, the swiper doesn't require annual replacements. Passive RFID is rather cheap though. When compared to the physical wear and tear, the current readers should last 20 - 30 years, easy.

I think his point was more about scales.. even at 10c a piece... times a few million guests EVERY YEAR.. that adds up. Just order of mag numbers.. 10 million guests at 10c is 1 million in costs every year. How many POS terminals do you replace for 1 million a year? Assume a safe number of $500 per terminal.. that's 2000 terminals every year.

I don't have the energy to try to estimate how many terminals are on site.. but I wouldn't be shocked to hear of numbers in the 4-5 digit range.

Plus, given Disney's relationship with Visa, and all their prominent advertising.. I wouldn't be shocked if Visa wasn't subsidizing the POS terminals.

With just rough stabs.. doesn't sound like massive savings to me. I'm sure it helps, but justifying it? Not convinced..

And the current readers will never be used for 20-30 years.. other technology refreshes will still force them to be replaced. I'd wager their expected lifespan is more like 2-3 years. Card tech, screen technology, etc have all forced frequent terminal upgrades.

 

[englanddg]

I think his point was more about scales.. even at 10c a piece... times a few million guests EVERY YEAR.. that adds up. Just order of mag numbers.. 10 million guests at 10c is 1 million in costs every year. How many POS terminals do you replace for 1 million a year? Assume a safe number of $500 per terminal.. that's 2000 terminals every year.

I don't have the energy to try to estimate how many terminals are on site.. but I wouldn't be shocked to hear of numbers in the 4-5 digit range.

Plus, given Disney's relationship with Visa, and all their prominent advertising.. I wouldn't be shocked if Visa wasn't subsidizing the POS terminals.

With just rough stabs.. doesn't sound like massive savings to me. I'm sure it helps, but justifying it? Not convinced..

And the current readers will never be used for 20-30 years.. other technology refreshes will still force them to be replaced. I'd wager their expected lifespan is more like 2-3 years. Card tech, screen technology, etc have all forced frequent terminal upgrades.

First, I agree with the exponential nature of costs. That is included in my post.

Also, If you read on I believe you'll see where I said it was a smart investment...oh wait, I said that in that post.

Second, Disney doesn't have that close a relationship (anymore) with any CC processor. Visa is just a brand anymore, they process very little but take a cut for their name. They are running their CCs through a processor that isn't Visa, I strongly suspect. Probably Chase corporate services (again, I suspect).

It's certainly savings, with respect to the readers.

And yes, it's a technology toilet bowl. A CC reader lasting less than a client POS machine (as you state 2-3 years) is a needless expense. This is stupid. Just stupid.

 

[englanddg]

Since you brought it up, what about the exponential cost of ticket media?

 

[khale1970]

You're right on some points. It's probably a thought best kept private, as the "oh crap, I could very easily get a lot of ppl fired if I post this" instinct kicked in as soon as I wrote that. Also, as I said, most of the engineers and technicians on Disney's payroll are dedicated to making sure guests have safe experiences and they do not need to be roped in to concerns I have with certain procedures at certain rides.

There are some WDW attractions I know better than others. If I truly feel that something is not right when I am on site, I will let the local leads and managers know whether or not they have any respect for my opinion as a guest/former employee/3rd party or not (I have, Many times). Especially regarding those procedures. What the internet knows or does not know means little to me when safety is concerned, especially in this environ. You'd be amazed at what never leaks out....

That being said, I know how fast and loose WDW plays with essential maintenance. Eventually the odds will be against them, and the consequences will be catastrophic. Trying to predict when and where on a message board only promotes paranoia and confusion.

But if you want something that resembles a glimpse at what is going on, look at what is happening with the monorail and the down time it will require in early 2014. Do you think this is the only WDW facility that has been used and abused well beyond its operating perimeters in 2013? Remember that the MK and all its associated facilities were originally built to host 8 million guests per year. They're well past that. Trending to 16+ mil in 2013.

But shouldn't a lot of people be fired if safety procedures are inadequate or aren't being properly followed? Shouldn't jobs be lost if essential maintenance is not performed and the eventual consequence will be catastrophic? And shouldn't those who are in a position to know something's wrong (either through educated observations or just an informed "hunch" based on working in the same or similar environments) take whatever steps are necessary to prevent what would be needless injuries or deaths by speaking up and warning people?

I understand that WDW faces challenges due to aging infrastructure, rides, and attractions that are being taxed beyond their design capacities. It's one thing if that results in rides being shuttered or taken offline for extensive repairs (and we all know the former is much more likely than the latter at WDW). But if the logical conclusion of these challenges coupled with lax adherence to safety and maintenance standards is an eventual catastrophic accident, then paranoia and confusion are are risks worth taking to prevents such accidents.

 

[pheneix]

But shouldn't a lot of people be fired if safety procedures are inadequate or aren't being properly followed? Shouldn't jobs be lost if essential maintenance is not performed and the eventual consequence will be catastrophic? And shouldn't those who are in a position to know something's wrong (either through educated observations or just an informed "hunch" based on working in the same or similar environments) take whatever steps are necessary to prevent what would be needless injuries or deaths by speaking up and warning people?

I understand that WDW faces challenges due to aging infrastructure, rides, and attractions that are being taxed beyond their design capacities. It's one thing if that results in rides being shuttered or taken offline for extensive repairs (and we all know the former is much more likely than the latter at WDW). But if the logical conclusion of these challenges coupled with lax adherence to safety and maintenance standards is an eventual catastrophic accident, then paranoia and confusion are are risks worth taking to prevents such accidents.

Yup but we're in America.

"Oh we don't meet the safety standards!"

"Nevermind, lower the standards!"

China does the some thing.

 

[khale1970]

Yup but we're in America.

"Oh **** we don't meet the safety standards!"

"Nevermind, lower the standards!"

China does the some thing.

Thank you for your responses and, as an aside, I'm not attempting to attack or provoke you. Your post caused me serious concern. You're no crackpot posting crazy rumors. You clearly have inside views of WDW operations and theme park operations in general that give you a great deal of credibility and add weight to your warning. We all know the risk that a drunk carny at the county fair might forget to put a cotter pin in the Tilt-o-Whirl sending little Timmy flying head over heels down the midway. The idea that WDW isn't just being negligent in some general way that means the yeti doesn't now and perhaps never will work, but in specific ways that caused someone who would know to avoid certain attractions due to safety fears is sobering.

Hopefully whoever at TDO or TWDC monitors these boards will let management know they have been exposed. The only question is will they care, or will the safety of guests and CMs continue to just be a low priority variable in their analysis of the costs of running a theme park?

 

[flynnibus]

First, I agree with the exponential nature of costs. That is included in my post.

Not sure what you mean? Didn't mention anything exponential in my post. But relative scales.. tickets are cheap, but at massive scale you must spend every year. POS terminals aren't cheap, but the # you need to replace each year is probably orders of magnitude less. So do the costs balance each other out, is there significant gain?

Also, If you read on I believe you'll see where I said it was a smart investment...oh wait, I said that in that post.

I wasn't saying it was.. I was actually questioning it. Maybe there is upkeep savings, but we're just comparing ticket media costs.. not everything else that comes with it. So I'm thinking maybe a cost saver in a single column, but not dramatic enough to offset the costs. Just think about the cost of replacing EVERY POS terminal at once.. that in itself will probably take several years itself to balance out.

Second, Disney doesn't have that close a relationship (anymore) with any CC processor. Visa is just a brand anymore, they process very little but take a cut for their name. They are running their CCs through a processor that isn't Visa, I strongly suspect. Probably Chase corporate services (again, I suspect).

But Visa is still very much a brand that heavily engages in marketing and sponsorships. It doesn't have to be the merchant bank itself to play a roll here.. and of course Disney is in bed with Chase too. So two candidates Disney could be milking to pay for terminals. But given Disney's latest play further advances the moves to minimize swipe fees by directing charges to a house account.. I doubt Disney would get as much help with those. That could be another 'loss' in such a transition too if sponsor/subsidies are lost.

 

[ford91exploder]

But shouldn't a lot of people be fired if safety procedures are inadequate or aren't being properly followed? Shouldn't jobs be lost if essential maintenance is not performed and the eventual consequence will be catastrophic? And shouldn't those who are in a position to know something's wrong (either through educated observations or just an informed "hunch" based on working in the same or similar environments) take whatever steps are necessary to prevent what would be needless injuries or deaths by speaking up and warning people?

I understand that WDW faces challenges due to aging infrastructure, rides, and attractions that are being taxed beyond their design capacities. It's one thing if that results in rides being shuttered or taken offline for extensive repairs (and we all know the former is much more likely than the latter at WDW). But if the logical conclusion of these challenges coupled with lax adherence to safety and maintenance standards is an eventual catastrophic accident, then paranoia and confusion are are risks worth taking to prevents such accidents.

In these cases it's usually management telling techs to skip low priority maintenance but record it in the logs as completed. What usually happens is techs do maintenance anyway if they can get away with it and get them on tape or video telling them to falsify logs whereupon they go to tv station who does expose. And bad practice stops for a while

 

[pheneix]

The idea that WDW isn't just being negligent in some general way that means the yeti doesn't now and perhaps never will work, but in specific ways that caused someone who would know to avoid certain attractions due to safety fears is sobering.

Hopefully whoever at TDO or TWDC monitors these boards will let management know they have been exposed. The only question is will they care, or will the safety of guests and CMs continue to just be a low priority variable in their analysis of the costs of running a theme park?

It's this level of discretion that delayed Test Track's opening by two years but allowed Mission: Space's opening to go without delay despite warnings from the ride's manufacturer.

As far as anything going on now, all I have to say is be DAMN happy WED's base standards are still the muster check for construction that takes place within WDW. Sometimes bureaucracy is a good thing.

 

[englanddg]

Not sure what you mean? Didn't mention anything exponential in my post. But relative scales.. tickets are cheap, but at massive scale you must spend every year.

Oh, I'm sorry...exponential was the wrong term. Massive is what I should have said.

POS terminals aren't cheap, but the # you need to replace each year is probably orders of magnitude less. So do the costs balance each other out, is there significant gain?

Again, sorry, exponential was the wrong term.

I wasn't saying it was.. I was actually questioning it. Maybe there is upkeep savings, but we're just comparing ticket media costs.. not everything else that comes with it. So I'm thinking maybe a cost saver in a single column, but not dramatic enough to offset the costs. Just think about the cost of replacing EVERY POS terminal at once.. that in itself will probably take several years itself to balance out.

I've actually been in that situation, and we recognized Sarbins Oxley compliance as well as other benefits from that capital investment. Not once was it spun as a "guest enhancement" however...

But Visa is still very much a brand that heavily engages in marketing and sponsorships. It doesn't have to be the merchant bank itself to play a roll here.. and of course Disney is in bed with Chase too. So two candidates Disney could be milking to pay for terminals. But given Disney's latest play further advances the moves to minimize swipe fees by directing charges to a house account.. I doubt Disney would get as much help with those. That could be another 'loss' in such a transition too if sponsor/subsidies are lost.

I call bull here. Disney doesn't care about Visa and Visa doesn't care about Disney. Visa, like Mastercard, once it lent itself to the debit market, so devalued itself with that respect that it isn't sponsoring anything it doesn't have to. It sure as heck isn't "sponsoring" Disneyworld. Chase, on the other hand...

 

[flynnibus]

I call bull here. Disney doesn't care about Visa and Visa doesn't care about Disney. Visa, like Mastercard, once it lent itself to the debit market, so devalued itself with that respect that it isn't sponsoring anything it doesn't have to. It sure as heck isn't "sponsoring" Disneyworld. Chase, on the other hand...

Eh? Visa Corporate (not the banks) are very much involved in corporate sponsorship (with some of the biggest properties on the planet). From the Olympics, FIFA, the NFL, numerous sports teams, etc. These are not legacy deals.

Disney and Visa Corporate are not strangers either.. Visa still has deals with HKDL - http://news-en.hongkongdisneyland.c...?AssetId=2cb891e7-d2bc-40bb-b98a-0b9f6d82f65c

Visa Corporate still is a huge advertiser for it's brand.

 

[englanddg]

Eh? Visa Corporate (not the banks) are very much involved in corporate sponsorship (with some of the biggest properties on the planet). From the Olympics, FIFA, the NFL, numerous sports teams, etc. These are not legacy deals.

Disney and Visa Corporate are not strangers either.. Visa still has deals with HKDL - http://news-en.hongkongdisneyland.c...?AssetId=2cb891e7-d2bc-40bb-b98a-0b9f6d82f65c

Visa Corporate still is a huge advertiser for it's brand.

Yes, they are a huge brand. And not one I've heard used without a processing bank in the US for a very long time.

Disney doesn't say the "Visa Chase", it says the "Chase Visa".

 

[englanddg]

And, just because they sponsor sporting events doesn't mean they will continue to do so...

 

[flynnibus]

Yes, they are a huge brand. And not one I've heard used without a processing bank in the US for a very long time.

Yet - it doesn't stop Visa Corporate from sponsoring world premier events... and Disney parks. You say they are out of the business... well the citations and recent deals like the Olympic deals prove otherwise.

I know all about merchant banks and processors in the mix... but don't know why you keep thinking that would EXCLUDE Visa from being engaged to promote the brand.. in addition to a bank like Chase being involved.

 

[flynnibus]

And, just because they sponsor sporting events doesn't mean they will continue to do so...

Visa last renewed the NFL deal in 2009 - which runs through 2014 - http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/09/22/visa-nfl-idUSN2130398620090922

Visa has been in the visa debit game for what.. 20 years at least? I don't see your correlation.

 

[marni1971]

I so can't wait to try MM+.

Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[lentesta]

Calling @lentesta - what is the average standby wait these days?

Here you go @ford91exploder. Average wait times for 2013 YTD for key attractions, by park, between 10 AM and 5 PM. More than 20,000 samples per attraction.

 

[drew81]

All this talk about MM+ makes me think of one thing...I can't wait till Universal announces Harry Potter phase 3.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Here you go @ford91exploder. Average wait times for 2013 YTD for key attractions, by park, between 10 AM and 5 PM. More than 20,000 samples per attraction.

Some attractions had FP+ installed this year.

Are the wait times for attractions such as PotC and HM pre or post FP+?

 

[WDWDad13]

Some attractions had FP+ installed this year.

Are the wait times for attractions such as PotC and HM pre or post FP+?

Good question. I'm not sure what those stats are gonna tell us since FP and FP + are thrown in there as well