Meg and Co. Head West ...

[WDW1974]

You are a long way off with that last sentence.

Country Bears Christmas got axed in 2006.

Castle Dream Lights began development in 2004, debuted in DLP as a test site in 2005 and debuted at WDW in 2007.

Are you SURE about CBJ's last year at WDW? You are saying they had it as late as 2005? I am not going to go look for old info, but I thought it was longer than that. But I'll take your info.

I will say that your info on Dreamlights is a bit off (unless Francois Leroux, who developed it for both parks didn't know what he was talking about). There was no real plan to do anything on the castle until Francois showed how fast and cheap it could be done in Paris. Once that happened it was fast-tracked to be done at WDW.

~GFC~

 

[WDWFigment]

How many guests visited the Magic Kingdom during the holiday season last year and what was the average amount spent per capita?

How much extra did they make versus the rest of the year that would then pay for the enhanced offerings at the holidays?

I get your point, but...

Wouldn't the better comparison be how much extra did Disney make during the holiday season with the 'extras/enhanced offerings' versus how much it made during the holiday season without the 'extras/enhanced offerings'?

Extraneous variables (weather, school schedules, etc.) impact your comparison. If November/December on average are much busier or less busy months than Jan-Oct, regardless of decorations, it's not a meaningful comparison.

That said, my comparison is also meaningless since it requires a control variable that doesn't exist. :animwink:

But, your point still stands that we aren't privy to per-capita guest spending levels/booking numbers/profits resulting from the Christmas offerings! :wave:

 

[wdwmagic]

Are you SURE about CBJ's last year at WDW? You are saying they had it as late as 2005? I am not going to go look for old info, but I thought it was longer than that. But I'll take your info.

I will say that your info on Dreamlights is a bit off (unless Francois Leroux, who developed it for both parks didn't know what he was talking about). There was no real plan to do anything on the castle until Francois showed how fast and cheap it could be done in Paris. Once that happened it was fast-tracked to be done at WDW.

~GFC~

One advantage of me being the only one who puts content on the site is that I remember writing the thing at the time it happened LOL.

Here is the news item - Oct 17 2006
http://www.wdwmagic.com/Attractions...-Country-Bear-Christmas-Special-this-year.htm

 

[WDW1974]

What I have been able to witness that most have not had the opportunity to see for themselves is the blatant disrespect toward WDW's customers and the purposeful cheapening of the product by TDO during the design/build process for projects initiated since 1998. Before that time management cared about the quality of the product. Recently I have seen the exact opposite in most cases. Yes there are a few exceptions but those instances are rare. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to many on this board to hear some of the comments made by budgeteeers and upper managment during design reviews and scope meetings. Some slightly paraphrased examples off the top of my head: "we don't need to use more than two or three functions on those animatronics they'll never know the difference," and "They have been satisfied so far why do we need to make it any more lavish," and "what's the difference what color we use they'll never no the difference," and "we have been getting away with the less expensive materials for years now why rock the boat," and "video will be cheaper and easier and they won't care," ad infinitum.

Do you see why every little inch we allow them to take toward the cheap and compromising diminishes the product for years to come? Those that excuse TDO for this behavior are a big part of the problem. Magagement uses the silence of their customer base as a license to continue the dumbing down and reduction of quality standards. There is a marked difference in attitude between TDO and other management teams I have worked with. All projects have limitations but other teams seem to care about the end result in terms of qualtiy. All TDO seems to care about is getting it done under budget whatever it takes. There are times when more global project teams take precedence and TDO doesn't have as much say.

Many times poor decisions dictated by TDO are a result of ignorance more than puposeful quality reduction. Most of them are not familiar with what it takes to produce a quality Disney attraction because they were hired as interns from some business school or were hired form some other industry. I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

Other issues that I have touched on previously include the general quality of talent being hired at WDI, the ridiculous governement regulations (something we all deal with directly or indirectly), and the insane quantity of useless managers.

In general there is nothing wrong with being a "fanboi," after all I consider myself one, but I wish we all would hold Disney to their own standards and stop excusing the company for their status quo mentality.

Bravo!:sohappy:

I did bold the first sentence because it sums up pretty much my purpose for going back and forth with fans who simply don't get how the company is run today.

As I keep repeating, the WDW fan community has truly become its own worst enemy because as they buy retro tees and attend D23 events that show WDW's glorious past, they also defend so much of what the company 'gets away' with today.

One thing I got yet again from my recent (and MAGICal) WDW visit when talking with management types was a resignation of mediocrity mentality. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me because the fans have been happy with that since it began in the 90s.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

Are you suggesting that unpopular attractions were never removed when Walt ran the parks?

Can we not play the Walt Card unless we agree that he probably wouldn't approve of most of the things done in his name since his death (many that most of us love)?

I, for one, would be okay with the CBJ being removed altogether (gasp)--as long as it was replaced with something else. I don't see a need for Disney to maintain unpopular attractions. Whylightbulb is talking about the cheapening of the Disney product. Are you suggesting that getting rid of the Country Bears Christmas in exchange for adding the DreamLights was a cheapening of the Christmas offerings? I would hazard a guess that the DreamLights cost more than $15000 to install every year, let alone the cost of their installation during their first year. They replaced a dated snorer with a technologically-advanced marvel. Isn't that what we want Disney to do?

CBJ's show is only a dated snorer if you find CBJ to be (in which case they should remove it and replace it with some interactive game you can play on your JOBSISGODPHONE). I saw it last year again in TDL and despite being 70% in a language I didn't understand enjoyed the show greatly. I realize my tastes might not be everyone's, but I don't ever recall it not being popular.

And your/TDO's mindset is what I have issue with. I don't feel that you have to lose something everytime you gain something new or fresh. This is a mindset that Disney never had until the late 90s when the MBAs and consultants came in (folks who told Disney things like you don't have to clean the carpets in your resort rooms because 'who looks down?' -- and that is a 100% true example and why you stopped seeing vacuum's on housekeeping carts in the late 90s!)

~GFC~

 

[Alektronic]

What I have been able to witness that most have not had the opportunity to see for themselves is the blatant disrespect toward WDW's customers and the purposeful cheapening of the product by TDO during the design/build process for projects initiated since 1998. Before that time management cared about the quality of the product. Recently I have seen the exact opposite in most cases. Yes there are a few exceptions but those instances are rare. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to many on this board to hear some of the comments made by budgeteeers and upper managment during design reviews and scope meetings. Some slightly paraphrased examples off the top of my head: "we don't need to use more than two or three functions on those animatronics they'll never know the difference," and "They have been satisfied so far why do we need to make it any more lavish," and "what's the difference what color we use they'll never no the difference," and "we have been getting away with the less expensive materials for years now why rock the boat," and "video will be cheaper and easier and they won't care," ad infinitum.

Do you see why every little inch we allow them to take toward the cheap and compromising diminishes the product for years to come? Those that excuse TDO for this behavior are a big part of the problem. Magagement uses the silence of their customer base as a license to continue the dumbing down and reduction of quality standards. There is a marked difference in attitude between TDO and other management teams I have worked with. All projects have limitations but other teams seem to care about the end result in terms of qualtiy. All TDO seems to care about is getting it done under budget whatever it takes. There are times when more global project teams take precedence and TDO doesn't have as much say.

Many times poor decisions dictated by TDO are a result of ignorance more than puposeful quality reduction. Most of them are not familiar with what it takes to produce a quality Disney attraction because they were hired as interns from some business school or were hired form some other industry. I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

Other issues that I have touched on previously include the general quality of talent being hired at WDI, the ridiculous governement regulations (something we all deal with directly or indirectly), and the insane quantity of useless managers.

In general there is nothing wrong with being a "fanboi," after all I consider myself one, but I wish we all would hold Disney to their own standards and stop excusing the company for their status quo mentality.

I totally agree. Upper Management is the main problem, and it just flows downhill from there. I have been told by Directors and VP's that it isn't a problem because we haven't had any guest complaints about it, so they don't care or just don't notice.

Several times, especially at DAK, we have been told to just turn off special effects or disable certain functions on AA figures because the guests won't notice anyway. All just to save money and don't worry about show quality.

 

[WDW1974]

What surprises me is the complaints about declining holiday offerings at WDW--burned out lights on the Epcot Christmas tree are tacky, but more big picture, some of the most impressive offerings--the Osborne Dancing Lights (with tons of updates), the Dream Lights, and the IllumiNations holiday tag have all emerged in the last 10 years.

The OzzyFest of Purrrty Lights (my fave WDW Christmas offering by far) isn't new. And the biggest change wasn't really a positive one -- a move to the Streets of America because they bulldozed the backlot for LMA. DreamLights is newish heading into its fifth year. And the RoE tag is ancient ... part of the old Holiday Illuminations show from the 90s. So, you're giving a lot of credit for very little in the 'new' department.

I won't point out here how TDR has new parades and shows and decor EVERY year for Christmas complete right down to the merchandise bags and such.

To me, Disney has spent a good deal of money upgrading the holiday offerings.

Not really. Not really at all ...

The shift, however, has been from many smaller offerings (e.g. Christmas decorations in every land) to several, much more impressive offerings. People here seem to want both, but that's unreasonable.

Why exactly is that unreasonable?

Disneyland may have better decorations on a land-to-land basis, but they have much less impressive lights on the castle, no jaw-dropping holiday fireworks finale (aren't they still playing the tired Believe in Holiday Magic?), and no overly impressive (and expensive) lighting display. Purple garland in New Orleans Square is pretty and all, but it's not the Osborne lights.

Again, not a fair comparison. There is nowhere in DL for a large (tacky?) light display like the Studios has (not to mention, Disney was gifted the original lights and displays to begin with). You are comparing apples and oranges again.

And I find BiHM just as enjoyable as Holiday Wishes. They are both nice shows.

Without expensive displays like WDW has in its parks (and hotels, especially the deluxe resorts!), it's no wonder they can still afford to put on the Haunted Mansion Holiday for the 11th year in a row, Believe in Holiday Magic for the 12th year in a row, and "it's a small world" holiday for the 15th year in a row at Disneyland. I thought everyone claimed DL always had the newest and the best? A Christmas Fantasy Parade premiered in 1994! WDW's Christmas parade premiered in 2007! And we complain that Share a Dream Come True (or whatever it's called) is old! Seems like a pretty stale holiday offering at DL.

Cheap shot. And WDW's parade is really just a slight makeover of MVMCP that played from what ... the 1970s? A new name, a few made over floats and a few new princesses doesn't mean new. Oh, and I preferred the old soundtrack myself!:xmas:

But I really don't want to get into another DL vs. WDW __________________ contest.

If you prefer TDO's mindset then be prepared to get the same old for years to come ... and to be told how MAGICal it all is.:xmas:

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

Are we coming down to measuring quantity as an indicator of value? Quantity is not a way of measuring value in a park experience. When you are visiting parks, for me, the impact that the experience personally has on you is a much better measure of value. I would pay $80 to go see the Osbornes, lllumiNations and the MK Dream Lights. I wouldn't do the same to see DLR Haunted Mansion overlay, the DL castle lights, or the DL Holiday firework show.

It all comes down to taste and preference. If someone enjoys certain entertainment offerings at WDW or DLR, then that's just their choice.

BUT ... you can't throw all the offerings at three WDW parks vs. DL because you'd pay a lot more than $80 to see all of the above since they are in three parks.

I wonder what Meg's favorite is?:xmas:

~GFC~

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Bravo!:sohappy:

I did bold the first sentence because it sums up pretty much my purpose for going back and forth with fans who simply don't get how the company is run today.

As I keep repeating, the WDW fan community has truly become its own worst enemy because as they buy retro tees and attend D23 events that show WDW's glorious past, they also defend so much of what the company 'gets away' with today.

One thing I got yet again from my recent (and MAGICal) WDW visit when talking with management types was a resignation of mediocrity mentality. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me because the fans have been happy with that since it began in the 90s.

~GFC~

But, what about the other side of the fan community? The group that will sit here and complain about what TDO does, yet still continuously goes to the parks and supports them financially. Disney isn't my family member or a child that I need to continuously believe in. I don't have to keep supporting it and hoping that it can change and be better if I keep providing it with capital and support. As of right now, I (spoken for myself and not for anyone else) believe that WDW still provides me with value for my money. It might not be the golden age of the 70s or 80s, and it might not be the value of DL, Tokyo, or something completely non-Disney...but I feel that I still get value when I go. If ever a day should come where I don't think that I am getting the value I need, I will stop going. If Disney has become as financially oriented as many suggest then I will surely hit them where it hurts most if I want to enact change.

Before I am told that I am wrong, I will say it again...I DO NOT agree with all of the decisions that TDO makes. This is especially true in items such as maintenance and atmosphere upgrades which I think have been lacking to a negative degree. However, sometimes I like to look at things as objectively I can and not as a "fanboi". I don't necessarily believe that everything has to be constantly kept just to say it's there (like CBJ Christmas...I prefer the original). I also don't agree that you have to take one thing away to provide something new. As Steve said before though, quantity doesn't have to equal quality.

 

[Atomicmickey]

You guys are making my brain hurt!

Excuse the rather schizoid nature of my reply, but just about any Disney fan is going to feel like they're in somewhat of an abusive relationship with their favorite parks these days!

So. Not denying the reality of things at all. Here's the problem--I'm a "minor, major" fan--(comparing to the amazing levels of fandom that I find here and elsewhere). So I read these boards, I absorb the FACTS, I nod my head, and I'm concerned.

But then I go to the parks, and I'm swept away and have a blast. I hardly notice a thing and I'm enjoying myself so much that a little thing like a rock being a tarp in BTMRR doesn't seem to matter.

Then I get home, and I'm like all GRRR about it.

So, that's one thing. The magic is still there for me even though I recognize the problems--it makes it really hard for me to complain while I'm there.

So I'm my own worst enemy, and probably exactly what these TDO mucky-mucks are talking about. It's me. I don't like my own reflection.

So, GRRR, me.

Secondly--and more pointedly, though.

There's not much we can do about it. Even complaining. I mean, if it's as ENTRENCHED in upper management as you all say it is, it feels hopeless. We're waiting for people to die, basically. Unless someone in Disney corporate comes out to O-Town with a huge personnel axe and/or blender, we can write up little slips, send little emails, all we want, and nothing will happen.

You all make it sound so hopeless. So much "the way things are".

And I think the fan community is so infinitesimally tiny, that they can't effect change. Because part of that rabid fan community is ME. Remember, the dough-brain that checks his critical thinking at the door the moment he hears his first "Por Favor, Mantenganse . . . . "

Really, can we do anything?
And really, am I so deluded as to actually enjoy myself unreservedly while I'm there?

These are the questions . . . . . asked by Dr. Mickey and Mr. Hyde . . .

 

[TP2000]

Are we coming down to measuring quantity as an indicator of value? Quantity is not a way of measuring value in a park experience. When you are visiting parks, for me, the impact that the experience personally has on you is a much better measure of value. I would pay $80 to go see the Osbornes, lllumiNations and the MK Dream Lights. I wouldn't do the same to see DLR Haunted Mansion overlay, the DL castle lights, or the DL Holiday firework show.

Personal preference and taste is understandable, and if Small World Holiday doesn't float your boat then that's cool. It is wildly popular with many others, though.

But you can't pay $80 and see all three of those WDW offerings versus the $80 you'll pay to see those three Disneyland offerings. Heck, you can't even see all three of those WDW offerings in one day because they are physically spread out a great distance away from each other in three separate theme parks and/or scheduled only once per night.

To really experience your three favorite offerings you'd need a 3-Day WDW ticket for $287, not a one-day ticket for $85 at WDW (or $80 at Disneyland).

I think that's what people who have been to both WDW and Disneyland at the holidays are driving at. The number of holiday offerings packed into one park (Disneyland) rivals the number of holiday offerings spread across four parks at WDW.

For an $80 ticket to Disneyland, anyone walking in the gates next Monday, November 14th gets the following Christmas offerings on a 10AM to 8PM off-peak weekday;

Believe In Holiday Magic fireworks with snow finale' @ 7:30PM
A Christmas Fantasy Parade @ 5:30PM
Sleeping Beauty's Wintertime Enchantment Castle Snow Show @ 5:00, 5:15, 6:30 & 7:00
Haunted Mansion Holiday
It's A Small World Holiday
Santa's Reindeer Roundup @ Big Thunder Ranch with live reindeer
Holiday version of Magic, Memories & You @ 7:45
Full decoration package on Main Street USA, Frontierland, Critter Country, New Orleans Square, Storybookland, and Mickey's Toontown

Plus all the smaller stuff, like the Victorian carolers, the Dapper Dans in their holidaywear, the Christmas clock show that performs at Small World every 15 minutes after sundown. Heck, that Small World clock show is just a thing they do for the queue really, but people flock to it and wait for it specifically. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GbWepwkAYk&feature=related

For 80 bucks, in one small theme park.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

But, what about the other side of the fan community? The group that will sit here and complain about what TDO does, yet still continuously goes to the parks and supports them financially. Disney isn't my family member or a child that I need to continuously believe in. I don't have to keep supporting it and hoping that it can change and be better if I keep providing it with capital and support. As of right now, I (spoken for myself and not for anyone else) believe that WDW still provides me with value for my money. It might not be the golden age of the 70s or 80s, and it might not be the value of DL, Tokyo, or something completely non-Disney...but I feel that I still get value when I go. If ever a day should come where I don't think that I am getting the value I need, I will stop going. If Disney has become as financially oriented as many suggest then I will surely hit them where it hurts most if I want to enact change.

I believe you're seeing more and more people that ARE voting with their wallet. My family is one of them... We live in the center of the country and have always gone to WDW, but we've started visiting DL instead, and are now passholders there. We've been there for a total of 2 1/2 weeks between 3 trips since the beginning of May. I'm not alone... Witness the upcoming national PR campaign that DL is going to push. That's not to say I won't visit WDW sometime in the next year... I don't hate the place, and there's still a lot there that my kids really want to do again. WDW just isn't going to get my multiple, 10 day stays that we used to make a couple times a year.

The question is more about where the tipping point is. Say 70% of those that are aware the quality has dipped at WDW decide to quit going (which would be a HIGH percentage, I think). Will it matter? How many people actually notice what we've all noticed? WDW is a big, giant money-making behemoth that likely won't be knocked off course by a mass defection of those of us "in the know". Because of the nature of WDW and its tourism base (once-a-lifetimers, or once-in-many-years type folks) there seems there will always be someone to take our place in line at Splash Mountain. And the longer the problems linger, the more it becomes the norm, and the harder it will be to change. It ain't pretty.

 

[devoy1701]

I doubt that was the exact discussion, but I could see there being a discussion along the lines of "We are making a huge addition to the MK's holiday entertainment next year; what cuts can we make that most guests won't mind to backfill the cost of the forthcoming Dream Lights?"

CBJ is not terribly popular and even at $15000, there wasn't much bang for their buck on the CB Christmas. How many guests were going to guest relations or completing a survey with "I really love that Country Bear Christmas show."?

Whereas, the Dream Lights are incredibly popular and people plan trips to see them. They are also very marketable.

Removal of the CBChristmas is one case where I support Disney's judgment.

Dream Lights > Country Bear Christmas (to me)

Well obviously... But they shouldn't be put in a catagory where you have to decide between one or the other. They most likely had to increase the Holiday budget anyway to offer the Dream Lights over what the budget was previously. I doubt the overlay of the Dream Lights cost $15k to the point where the decision was "Let's cut CBC and allocate the budget to Dream Lights instead." The two probably aren't in the same ball park. So IMO it would have been great that TDO increased the budget (prices and attendance have gone up anyway to offset most increased costs) to allow for both offerings.

What surprises me is the complaints about declining holiday offerings at WDW--burned out lights on the Epcot Christmas tree are tacky, but more big picture, some of the most impressive offerings--the Osborne Dancing Lights (with tons of updates), the Dream Lights, and the IllumiNations holiday tag have all emerged in the last 10 years. To me, Disney has spent a good deal of money upgrading the holiday offerings. The shift, however, has been from many smaller offerings (e.g. Christmas decorations in every land) to several, much more impressive offerings. People here seem to want both, but that's unreasonable. Disneyland may have better decorations on a land-to-land basis, but they have much less impressive lights on the castle, no jaw-dropping holiday fireworks finale (aren't they still playing the tired Believe in Holiday Magic?), and no overly impressive (and expensive) lighting display. Purple garland in New Orleans Square is pretty and all, but it's not the Osborne lights. Without expensive displays like WDW has in its parks (and hotels, especially the deluxe resorts!), it's no wonder they can still afford to put on the Haunted Mansion Holiday for the 11th year in a row, Believe in Holiday Magic for the 12th year in a row, and "it's a small world" holiday for the 15th year in a row at Disneyland. I thought everyone claimed DL always had the newest and the best? A Christmas Fantasy Parade premiered in 1994! WDW's Christmas parade premiered in 2007! And we complain that Share a Dream Come True (or whatever it's called) is old! Seems like a pretty stale holiday offering at DL.

I don't see the Osborne lights as being as great as they used to be (and I love the display)! There was something about being able to walk down residential street and experience a whole the display that more closely represented the original display. However, the plussing of the Dancing Lights and more recently the LCD screens in the Chevy Building are definitely appreciated.

I'm assuming you have seen the profit numbers from the holiday season and compared them to the costs associated with what Disney currently offers.

Actually, I'm assuming you haven't. I'm assuming you have no idea how much money WDW "rolls in every holiday" nor do you have any idea how much it costs to put on the Dream Lights, Osborne Lights, and IllumiNations holiday tag (all of which are mostly presented during the value season when hotel rates are at the lowest of the year).

We can guess how much it must cost to have 5 million lights on every night at the Studios alone. I know what happens to my electric bill every December...and I have probably 200 lights.

You can look at that quarters financial sheets to get an idea I assume, but since they stopped publishing individual #s over the last year that would make that a bit harder. But the point is that as prices go up, and attendance goes up (and operating costs such as using LEDs versus Incandecent Lights go down) that the offerings should grow in # as the years go on. If '74's cost of the CBC overlay is correct along with my assumption that the Castle Lights probably cost MUCH more than CBC did in terms of labor costs and operation, the $15K is just a VERY small drop in the bucket of what it costs to run WDW Holiday festivities. I bet they could make it up with just one extra Very Merry Xmas Party... :drevil:

No I am not suggesting that.

CB is not popular. CBC was more popular. They removed the more popular overlay and left the less popular attraction in place.

Very interesting way to word it because that's exactly what they did.

And your/TDO's mindset is what I have issue with. I don't feel that you have to lose something everytime you gain something new or fresh. This is a mindset that Disney never had until the late 90s when the MBAs and consultants came in (folks who told Disney things like you don't have to clean the carpets in your resort rooms because 'who looks down?' -- and that is a 100% true example and why you stopped seeing vacuum's on housekeeping carts in the late 90s!)

~GFC~

That's kind of gross...

The OzzyFest of Purrrty Lights (my fave WDW Christmas offering by far) isn't new. And the biggest change wasn't really a positive one -- a move to the Streets of America because they bulldozed the backlot for LMA. DreamLights is newish heading into its fifth year. And the RoE tag is ancient ... part of the old Holiday Illuminations show from the 90s. So, you're giving a lot of credit for very little in the 'new' department.

If you prefer TDO's mindset then be prepared to get the same old for years to come ... and to be told how MAGICal it all is.:xmas:

~GFC~

Beat me to the punch on Osborne...This is what happens when I try to get some work done instead of keeping up with the forums.

 

[wdwmagic]

The OzzyFest of Purrrty Lights (my fave WDW Christmas offering by far) isn't new. And the biggest change wasn't really a positive one -- a move to the Streets of America because they bulldozed the backlot for LMA. DreamLights is newish heading into its fifth year. And the RoE tag is ancient ... part of the old Holiday Illuminations show from the 90s. So, you're giving a lot of credit for very little in the 'new' department.

I won't point out here how TDR has new parades and shows and decor EVERY year for Christmas complete right down to the merchandise bags and such.

Not really. Not really at all ...

Reflections of Earth with the Peace on Earth finale opened in November 2004. The only part of the show that remained from Holiday IllumiNations was the music and narration. It is all new programming, new fireworks, new everything. Much of the hardware that runs the show didn't even exist when Holiday IllumiNations ran in the 90s.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

You guys are making my brain hurt!

Excuse the rather schizoid nature of my reply, but just about any Disney fan is going to feel like they're in somewhat of an abusive relationship with their favorite parks these days!

So. Not denying the reality of things at all. Here's the problem--I'm a "minor, major" fan--(comparing to the amazing levels of fandom that I find here and elsewhere). So I read these boards, I absorb the FACTS, I nod my head, and I'm concerned.

But then I go to the parks, and I'm swept away and have a blast. I hardly notice a thing and I'm enjoying myself so much that a little thing like a rock being a tarp in BTMRR doesn't seem to matter.

Then I get home, and I'm like all GRRR about it.

So, that's one thing. The magic is still there for me even though I recognize the problems--it makes it really hard for me to complain while I'm there.

So I'm my own worst enemy, and probably exactly what these TDO mucky-mucks are talking about. It's me. I don't like my own reflection.

So, GRRR, me.

Secondly--and more pointedly, though.

There's not much we can do about it. Even complaining. I mean, if it's as ENTRENCHED in upper management as you all say it is, it feels hopeless. We're waiting for people to die, basically. Unless someone in Disney corporate comes out to O-Town with a huge personnel axe and/or blender, we can write up little slips, send little emails, all we want, and nothing will happen.

You all make it sound so hopeless. So much "the way things are".

And I think the fan community is so infinitesimally tiny, that they can't effect change. Because part of that rabid fan community is ME. Remember, the dough-brain that checks his critical thinking at the door the moment he hears his first "Por Favor, Mantenganse . . . . "

Really, can we do anything?
And really, am I so deluded as to actually enjoy myself unreservedly while I'm there?

These are the questions . . . . . asked by Dr. Mickey and Mr. Hyde . . .

You and I were posting some of the same kinds of things at the same time. :lol:

It's fine to enjoy yourself while you're there. I'm the same way... When I go to WDW, a high percentage of the time I'm just going with the flow and not looking with too critical an eye.

But for me, I can't ride Everest and not be really upset about Disco Yeti. Especially when I get off the ride and so many people are like "WOW! That was AWESOME! Did you see that?!?!?"... Those people have no idea what they're missing, and certainly are the source of TDO's surveys saying they don't have to fix it.

Or riding Dinosaur. I can't ride it without at least SORT of thinking about everything that's broke.

Or meals. OH, the meals. They're so bad compared to what they were just a handful of years ago.

So... Those things (and honestly many others) bring me down during a WDW vacation. But I still end my nights smiling overall.

But I would suggest, if you have the means, to check out Disneyland instead on your next trip. So many of those kinds of things I mentioned above aren't issues at Disneyland. There aren't glaring effect issues at Disneyland. The restaurants by and large are WONDERFUL for in-park restaurants, and the menus are varying and great.

Keep getting your Disney fix... Just get it on the left coast. :wave:

 

[TP2000]

Without expensive displays like WDW has in its parks (and hotels, especially the deluxe resorts!), it's no wonder they can still afford to put on the Haunted Mansion Holiday for the 11th year in a row, Believe in Holiday Magic for the 12th year in a row, and "it's a small world" holiday for the 15th year in a row at Disneyland. I thought everyone claimed DL always had the newest and the best? A Christmas Fantasy Parade premiered in 1994! WDW's Christmas parade premiered in 2007! And we complain that Share a Dream Come True (or whatever it's called) is old! Seems like a pretty stale holiday offering at DL.

Interesting tactic there, but when you look at all they've done to those shows in the last 10 years you realize Disneyland has done nothing but plus them up and change them nearly every year, not let them go stale.

Haunted Mansion Holiday is the most changed; with new scenes and all-new animatronics being added and swapped out about every other year over the last decade. The different gingerbread house every year is a cute gimmick, but it really pales in comparison to the various show scenes they have upgraded and changed over the last decade; stuff like the new Oogie-Boogie animatronic, the new floating Leota and decorations scene, the mechanical advent calendar in the loading area, etc.

Disneyland's Christmas Fantasy parade has been replacing the older 1990's floats with new ones in recent years too, like Santa's finale float last year. Costumes and characters and choreography have all been changed, and the parade looks very fresh. You can look at a YouTube of 2010's parade and it looks noticeably different with different floats from the "same" parade in 2004.

Small World Holiday is the least changed, at least on the inside. But how do you change what was already a slam dunk in 1997 and has become a timeless classic? Small World still charms in '11 like it did back at the World's Fair in '64, after all. It's been torn out and replaced entirely after the big 18 month rehab in '07-'08, but they designed all new decor for it based on the new sets and dimensions. The new America show scene added to the ride in '09 also got a new holiday overlay.

But it's on the exterior of Small World Holiday that they have used the technology of the last decade to really plus up and change the experience from year to year. The exterior digital projection shows they've been doing at Small World are now just as big a draw as the interior show that debuted back in '97. I already linked the Clock Show that goes every 15 minutes and that debuted in 2005, but here's another new change that began in 2008, the "snow moment" show for Small World Holiday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWQPvY0aOE&feature=related

They aren't done with Small World Holiday either. There is supposedly a new holiday version of Magic, Memories & You digital mapping show that debuts next Monday with the start of the holiday season, taking advantage of the Holiday decorations and lights on the Small World facade this time of year.

To say that the holiday offerings at Disneyland have stood unchanged and static since their debut 10 or 15 years ago is entirely false, and shows a deep and profound misunderstanding of how Disneyland's holiday offerings have evolved and been regularly plussed over the last decade. :wave:

 

[wdwmagic]

TP2000. Question for you.

Almost every single one of your posts is an illustration for how better you consider DLR is compared to WDW. I understand that you prefer DLR, you work there, it is your home park. Understood, nothing wrong with that. However, what I want to know is do you constantly post this to just try to stir up trouble for all the WDW fans who are on this WDW based site, or do you genuinely have an interest in WDW. I am seriously starting to think it is the former.

 

[WDW Vacationer]

You need to check your facts before you blindly follow what WDW1974 (incorrectly in this case) says.

Country Bears Christmas got axed in 2006.

Castle Dream Lights began development in 2004, debuted in DLP as a test site in 2005 and debuted at WDW in 2007.

Nope, I can think for myself! :lol: I actually thought the Christmas show as cut in 2004. My bad and thanks for the correction.

Speaking of holiday cuts, one of today's homepage items is the Improved Epcot Christmas tree! Now with no gaps! What an improv...

Wait.

Wasn't the gap there for the stage for Epcot's nightly tree lighting ceremony to turn on the lights on the tree and the Lights of Winter? The short little stage show? The one that was axed within the last few years, just like the Lights of Winter?

No lights. No show. But no gap!

Happy Holidays-TDO :xmas:

 

[WDW Vacationer]

Almost every single one of your posts is an illustration for how better you consider DLR is compared to WDW. I understand that you prefer DLR, you work there, it is your home park. Understood, nothing wrong with that. However, what I want to know is do you constantly post this to just try to stir up trouble for all the WDW fans who are on this WDW based site, or do you genuinely have an interest in WDW. I am seriously starting to think it is the former.

It could be that he sees how Disneyland holds themselves to the higher standard WDW used to and takes pride in what they give their guests.

 

[Atomicmickey]

You and I were posting some of the same kinds of things at the same time. :lol:

But I would suggest, if you have the means, to check out Disneyland instead on your next trip. So many of those kinds of things I mentioned above aren't issues at Disneyland. There aren't glaring effect issues at Disneyland. The restaurants by and large are WONDERFUL for in-park restaurants, and the menus are varying and great.

Keep getting your Disney fix... Just get it on the left coast. :wave:

Funny you should mention that! I visited Disneyland, for the first time in YEARS, and only the fourth time ever, last Tuesday. I put my trip report here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=824389

Not to derail this thread, so go read that and post there would be the proper thing to do, I think.

Due to that Disneyland trip, my thoughts on WDW matters have been bouncing around a lot the past week.

Still interested in what folks like whylightbulb and WDW1974, etc. have to say to, um, comfort, console, whack me upside the head? :lol: