Meg and Co. Head West ...

[whylightbulb]

I just felt the need to repost this so perhaps it sinks in. Folks may hate me, (well not nearly as many as they'd like to believe!):drevil: but one might think the words of someone who has worked for both companies and has knowledge of the industry intimately might wake some up from their Pixie Dusted slumber.

BTW, love that Once Upon a Time on ABC ... but I do know some folks who work on it too!

~GFC~

What I have been able to witness that most have not had the opportunity to see for themselves is the blatant disrespect toward WDW's customers and the purposeful cheapening of the product by TDO during the design/build process for projects initiated since 1998. Before that time management cared about the quality of the product. Recently I have seen the exact opposite in most cases. Yes there are a few exceptions but those instances are rare. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to many on this board to hear some of the comments made by budgeteeers and upper managment during design reviews and scope meetings. Some slightly paraphrased examples off the top of my head: "we don't need to use more than two or three functions on those animatronics they'll never know the difference," and "They have been satisfied so far why do we need to make it any more lavish," and "what's the difference what color we use they'll never no the difference," and "we have been getting away with the less expensive materials for years now why rock the boat," and "video will be cheaper and easier and they won't care," ad infinitum.

Do you see why every little inch we allow them to take toward the cheap and compromising diminishes the product for years to come? Those that excuse TDO for this behavior are a big part of the problem. Magagement uses the silence of their customer base as a license to continue the dumbing down and reduction of quality standards. There is a marked difference in attitude between TDO and other management teams I have worked with. All projects have limitations but other teams seem to care about the end result in terms of qualtiy. All TDO seems to care about is getting it done under budget whatever it takes. There are times when more global project teams take precedence and TDO doesn't have as much say.

Many times poor decisions dictated by TDO are a result of ignorance more than puposeful quality reduction. Most of them are not familiar with what it takes to produce a quality Disney attraction because they were hired as interns from some business school or were hired form some other industry. I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

Other issues that I have touched on previously include the general quality of talent being hired at WDI, the ridiculous governement regulations (something we all deal with directly or indirectly), and the insane quantity of useless managers.

In general there is nothing wrong with being a "fanboi," after all I consider myself one, but I wish we all would hold Disney to their own standards and stop excusing the company for their status quo mentality.

 

[janoimagine]

I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

This should blow my mind, however after what I have experienced in the past couple years at the parks ... sadly I can honestly say I am not suprised.

 

[njDizFan]

What I have been able to witness that most have not had the opportunity to see for themselves is the blatant disrespect toward WDW's customers and the purposeful cheapening of the product by TDO during the design/build process for projects initiated since 1998. Before that time management cared about the quality of the product. Recently I have seen the exact opposite in most cases. Yes there are a few exceptions but those instances are rare. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to many on this board to hear some of the comments made by budgeteeers and upper managment during design reviews and scope meetings. Some slightly paraphrased examples off the top of my head: "we don't need to use more than two or three functions on those animatronics they'll never know the difference," and "They have been satisfied so far why do we need to make it any more lavish," and "what's the difference what color we use they'll never no the difference," and "we have been getting away with the less expensive materials for years now why rock the boat," and "video will be cheaper and easier and they won't care," ad infinitum.

Do you see why every little inch we allow them to take toward the cheap and compromising diminishes the product for years to come? Those that excuse TDO for this behavior are a big part of the problem. Magagement uses the silence of their customer base as a license to continue the dumbing down and reduction of quality standards. There is a marked difference in attitude between TDO and other management teams I have worked with. All projects have limitations but other teams seem to care about the end result in terms of qualtiy. All TDO seems to care about is getting it done under budget whatever it takes. There are times when more global project teams take precedence and TDO doesn't have as much say.

Many times poor decisions dictated by TDO are a result of ignorance more than puposeful quality reduction. Most of them are not familiar with what it takes to produce a quality Disney attraction because they were hired as interns from some business school or were hired form some other industry. I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

Other issues that I have touched on previously include the general quality of talent being hired at WDI, the ridiculous governement regulations (something we all deal with directly or indirectly), and the insane quantity of useless managers.

In general there is nothing wrong with being a "fanboi," after all I consider myself one, but I wish we all would hold Disney to their own standards and stop excusing the company for their status quo mentality.

Once again thanks for the great insight to information that very few of us have access.

It is sad that TDO greenlights projects knowing they are sub par because the Orlando vacationer doesn't seem to know any better.

 

[COProgressFan]

You need to check your facts before you blindly follow what WDW1974 (incorrectly in this case) says.

Country Bears Christmas got axed in 2006.

Castle Dream Lights began development in 2004, debuted in DLP as a test site in 2005 and debuted at WDW in 2007.

Fair enough, but do you really think in 2006, when they didn't bring back CBJ Christmas, they were thinking "let's not do the overlay because we are going to have castle lights next year"? I don't see how one has anything to do with the other.

And if Spirit's miniscule $15k budget estimate for the changeover is legit (and it certainly seems like it could be) it only makes the situation that more upsetting. The CBJ is in poor shape and is hardly a headliner attractions. This small addition was a little bit of fresh air for a tired, poorly maintained attraction. And from a guest perspective, it was a just a fun show, and a nice change.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I doubt that was the exact discussion, but I could see there being a discussion along the lines of "We are making a huge addition to the MK's holiday entertainment next year; what cuts can we make that most guests won't mind to backfill the cost of the forthcoming Dream Lights?"

CBJ is not terribly popular and even at $15000, there wasn't much bang for their buck on the CB Christmas. How many guests were going to guest relations or completing a survey with "I really love that Country Bear Christmas show."?

Whereas, the Dream Lights are incredibly popular and people plan trips to see them. They are also very marketable.

Removal of the CBChristmas is one case where I support Disney's judgment.

Dream Lights > Country Bear Christmas (to me)

 

[xdan0920]

What I have been able to witness that most have not had the opportunity to see for themselves is the blatant disrespect toward WDW's customers and the purposeful cheapening of the product by TDO during the design/build process for projects initiated since 1998. Before that time management cared about the quality of the product. Recently I have seen the exact opposite in most cases. Yes there are a few exceptions but those instances are rare. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to many on this board to hear some of the comments made by budgeteeers and upper managment during design reviews and scope meetings. Some slightly paraphrased examples off the top of my head: "we don't need to use more than two or three functions on those animatronics they'll never know the difference," and "They have been satisfied so far why do we need to make it any more lavish," and "what's the difference what color we use they'll never no the difference," and "we have been getting away with the less expensive materials for years now why rock the boat," and "video will be cheaper and easier and they won't care," ad infinitum.

Do you see why every little inch we allow them to take toward the cheap and compromising diminishes the product for years to come? Those that excuse TDO for this behavior are a big part of the problem. Magagement uses the silence of their customer base as a license to continue the dumbing down and reduction of quality standards. There is a marked difference in attitude between TDO and other management teams I have worked with. All projects have limitations but other teams seem to care about the end result in terms of qualtiy. All TDO seems to care about is getting it done under budget whatever it takes. There are times when more global project teams take precedence and TDO doesn't have as much say.

Many times poor decisions dictated by TDO are a result of ignorance more than puposeful quality reduction. Most of them are not familiar with what it takes to produce a quality Disney attraction because they were hired as interns from some business school or were hired form some other industry. I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

Other issues that I have touched on previously include the general quality of talent being hired at WDI, the ridiculous governement regulations (something we all deal with directly or indirectly), and the insane quantity of useless managers.

In general there is nothing wrong with being a "fanboi," after all I consider myself one, but I wish we all would hold Disney to their own standards and stop excusing the company for their status quo mentality.

This is a stunning and quite frankly damning testimonial for Orlando's management team. What kind of angle could you take to even begin to defend this type of thinking?

I doubt that was the exact discussion, but I could see there being a discussion along the lines of "We are making a huge addition to the MK's holiday entertainment next year; what cuts can we make that most guests won't mind to backfill the cost of the forthcoming Dream Lights?"

CBJ is not terribly popular and even at $15000, there wasn't much bang for their buck on the CB Christmas. How many guests were going to guest relations or completing a survey with "I really love that Country Bear Christmas show."?

Whereas, the Dream Lights are incredibly popular and people plan trips to see them. They are also very marketable.

Removal of the CBChristmas is one case where I support Disney's judgment.

Dream Lights > Country Bear Christmas (to me)

I disagree whole heartedly with this sentiment. The idea of cutting things because the majority of guests will not notice nor complain is the exact problem Whylightbulb is referring to.

 

[wdwmagic]

Fair enough, but do you really think in 2006, when they didn't bring back CBJ Christmas, they were thinking "let's not do the overlay because we are going to have castle lights next year"? I don't see how one has anything to do with the other.

And if Spirit's miniscule $15k budget estimate for the changeover is legit (and it certainly seems like it could be) it only makes the situation that more upsetting. The CBJ is in poor shape and is hardly a headliner attractions. This small addition was a little bit of fresh air for a tired, poorly maintained attraction. And from a guest perspective, it was a just a fun show, and a nice change.

This is exactly how Disney work. It is all cost centers with budgets that are allocated and moved around. Notice how with entertainment offerings come and go? Money is taken from one thing and moved to another.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I disagree whole heartedly with this sentiment. The idea of cutting things because the majority of guests will not notice nor complain is the exact problem Whylightbulb is referring to.

Are you suggesting that unpopular attractions were never removed when Walt ran the parks?

I, for one, would be okay with the CBJ being removed altogether (gasp)--as long as it was replaced with something else. I don't see a need for Disney to maintain unpopular attractions. Whylightbulb is talking about the cheapening of the Disney product. Are you suggesting that getting rid of the Country Bears Christmas in exchange for adding the DreamLights was a cheapening of the Christmas offerings? I would hazard a guess that the DreamLights cost more than $15000 to install every year, let alone the cost of their installation during their first year. They replaced a dated snorer with a technologically-advanced marvel. Isn't that what we want Disney to do?

 

[wdwmagic]

I disagree that it's "all personal opinion." While entertainment quality isn't completely quantifiable, to a large degree, it is. I stand by my statement that Disneyland, dollar for dollar, is offering something that is objectively "more" than Walt Disney World. It could be my opinion that $3 is more than $5, but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't wrong. This isn't quite the same, as comparing value does require some value judgments to be made, but to say it's all personal opinion is also inaccurate.

It is clear from posts around these forums alone that entertainment quality is absolutely personal opinion. Look around the internet and you can find people who will tell you Fantasmic is the best of the night shows at WDW. I rank it last. Lots of people will say they like the special edition MK shows for Halloween and Christmas, whereas I prefer the regular Wishes design.

Moving it on to the holidays WDW vs DLR, for me, the best holiday offerings across both resorts are Osborne Lights, Peace on Earth IllumiNations, and MK Dream Lights. My wife however loves the DL Small World overlay. So for me, WDW represents a better value product than DLR does for the holidays. I assign a higher value to those WDW shows than what is offered at DLR. However, I recognize that it is my personal opinion, and others have different opinions.

I don't know if I am reading it wrong, but what I understand from your post is that because you think DLR entertainment is better, that must be the fact, and anyone who disagrees with that is wrong.

 

[ToTBellHop]

It is clear from posts around these forums alone that entertainment quality is absolutely personal opinion. Look around the internet and you can find people who will tell you Fantasmic is the best of the night shows at WDW. I rank it last. Lots of people will say they like the special edition MK shows for Halloween and Christmas, whereas I prefer the regular Wishes design.

Moving it on to the holidays WDW vs DLR, for me, the best holiday offerings across both resorts are Osborne Lights, Peace on Earth IllumiNations, and MK Dream Lights. My wife however loves the DL Small World overlay. So for me, WDW represents a better value product than DLR does for the holidays. I assign a higher value to those WDW shows than what is offered at DLR. However, I recognize that it is my personal opinion, and others have different opinions.

I don't know if I am reading it wrong, but what I understand from your post is that because you think DLR entertainment is better, that must be the fact, and anyone who disagrees with that is wrong.

What surprises me is the complaints about declining holiday offerings at WDW--burned out lights on the Epcot Christmas tree are tacky, but more big picture, some of the most impressive offerings--the Osborne Dancing Lights (with tons of updates), the Dream Lights, and the IllumiNations holiday tag have all emerged in the last 10 years. To me, Disney has spent a good deal of money upgrading the holiday offerings. The shift, however, has been from many smaller offerings (e.g. Christmas decorations in every land) to several, much more impressive offerings. People here seem to want both, but that's unreasonable. Disneyland may have better decorations on a land-to-land basis, but they have much less impressive lights on the castle, no jaw-dropping holiday fireworks finale (aren't they still playing the tired Believe in Holiday Magic?), and no overly impressive (and expensive) lighting display. Purple garland in New Orleans Square is pretty and all, but it's not the Osborne lights. Without expensive displays like WDW has in its parks (and hotels, especially the deluxe resorts!), it's no wonder they can still afford to put on the Haunted Mansion Holiday for the 11th year in a row, Believe in Holiday Magic for the 12th year in a row, and "it's a small world" holiday for the 15th year in a row at Disneyland. I thought everyone claimed DL always had the newest and the best? A Christmas Fantasy Parade premiered in 1994! WDW's Christmas parade premiered in 2007! And we complain that Share a Dream Come True (or whatever it's called) is old! Seems like a pretty stale holiday offering at DL.

 

[COProgressFan]

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think his explanation was that while there is always going to some degree of personal opinion, there are some objective findings you can come up with. If you compare the cost of a visit vs. the quantifiable number of attractions and entertainment offerings, you get more for your dollar in DL than the MK. That would be an objective statement, regardless of whether you feel that the offerings at DL are better.

 

[GLaDOS]

People here seem to want both, but that's unreasonable.

No, it's really not. With the amount of money WDW rolls in every holiday, it's not out of the question to have both.

 

[ToTBellHop]

No, it's really not. With the amount of money WDW rolls in every holiday, it's not out of the question to have both.

I'm assuming you have seen the profit numbers from the holiday season and compared them to the costs associated with what Disney currently offers.

Actually, I'm assuming you haven't. I'm assuming you have no idea how much money WDW "rolls in every holiday" nor do you have any idea how much it costs to put on the Dream Lights, Osborne Lights, and IllumiNations holiday tag (all of which are mostly presented during the value season when hotel rates are at the lowest of the year).

We can guess how much it must cost to have 5 million lights on every night at the Studios alone. I know what happens to my electric bill every December...and I have probably 200 lights.

 

[GLaDOS]

You know what they say about assuming...

 

[ToTBellHop]

You know what they say about assuming...

How many guests visited the Magic Kingdom during the holiday season last year and what was the average amount spent per capita?

How much extra did they make versus the rest of the year that would then pay for the enhanced offerings at the holidays?

 

[wdwmagic]

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think his explanation was that while there is always going to some degree of personal opinion, there are some objective findings you can come up with. If you compare the cost of a visit vs. the quantifiable number of attractions and entertainment offerings, you get more for your dollar in DL than the MK. That would be an objective statement, regardless of whether you feel that the offerings at DL are better.

Are we coming down to measuring quantity as an indicator of value? Quantity is not a way of measuring value in a park experience. When you are visiting parks, for me, the impact that the experience personally has on you is a much better measure of value. I would pay $80 to go see the Osbornes, lllumiNations and the MK Dream Lights. I wouldn't do the same to see DLR Haunted Mansion overlay, the DL castle lights, or the DL Holiday firework show.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Look around the internet and you can find people who will tell you Fantasmic is the best of the night shows at WDW. I rank it last.

Well on THAT we can agree.

Although if we were talking about DISNEYLAND'S version of Fantasmic... :drevil:

 

[xdan0920]

Are you suggesting that unpopular attractions were never removed when Walt ran the parks?

I, for one, would be okay with the CBJ being removed altogether (gasp)--as long as it was replaced with something else. I don't see a need for Disney to maintain unpopular attractions. Whylightbulb is talking about the cheapening of the Disney product. Are you suggesting that getting rid of the Country Bears Christmas in exchange for adding the DreamLights was a cheapening of the Christmas offerings? I would hazard a guess that the DreamLights cost more than $15000 to install every year, let alone the cost of their installation during their first year. They replaced a dated snorer with a technologically-advanced marvel. Isn't that what we want Disney to do?

No I am not suggesting that.

CB is not popular. CBC was more popular. They removed the more popular overlay and left the less popular attraction in place.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

What I have been able to witness that most have not had the opportunity to see for themselves is the blatant disrespect toward WDW's customers and the purposeful cheapening of the product by TDO during the design/build process for projects initiated since 1998. Before that time management cared about the quality of the product. Recently I have seen the exact opposite in most cases. Yes there are a few exceptions but those instances are rare. I'm sure it would be a real eye opener to many on this board to hear some of the comments made by budgeteeers and upper managment during design reviews and scope meetings. Some slightly paraphrased examples off the top of my head: "we don't need to use more than two or three functions on those animatronics they'll never know the difference," and "They have been satisfied so far why do we need to make it any more lavish," and "what's the difference what color we use they'll never no the difference," and "we have been getting away with the less expensive materials for years now why rock the boat," and "video will be cheaper and easier and they won't care," ad infinitum.

Do you see why every little inch we allow them to take toward the cheap and compromising diminishes the product for years to come? Those that excuse TDO for this behavior are a big part of the problem. Magagement uses the silence of their customer base as a license to continue the dumbing down and reduction of quality standards. There is a marked difference in attitude between TDO and other management teams I have worked with. All projects have limitations but other teams seem to care about the end result in terms of qualtiy. All TDO seems to care about is getting it done under budget whatever it takes. There are times when more global project teams take precedence and TDO doesn't have as much say.

Many times poor decisions dictated by TDO are a result of ignorance more than puposeful quality reduction. Most of them are not familiar with what it takes to produce a quality Disney attraction because they were hired as interns from some business school or were hired form some other industry. I've mentioned before that I had a boss several years back that didn't even know Walt Disney was a real man.

Other issues that I have touched on previously include the general quality of talent being hired at WDI, the ridiculous governement regulations (something we all deal with directly or indirectly), and the insane quantity of useless managers.

In general there is nothing wrong with being a "fanboi," after all I consider myself one, but I wish we all would hold Disney to their own standards and stop excusing the company for their status quo mentality.

This post should be bookmarked by everyone for easy reference.

We can get no better a look from the "inside" than what you've posted here.

And the sad thing is... It's probably EXACTLY what most of us assumed goes on behind closed doors at TDO. I could have probably guessed darn near 100%.

Although I gotta admit... I wouldn't have ever guessed someone with TWDC didn't know Walt was a real guy!

 

[WDWFigment]

Are we coming down to measuring quantity as an indicator of value? Quantity is not a way of measuring value in a park experience. When you are visiting parks, for me, the impact that the experience personally has on you is a much better measure of value. I would pay $80 to go see the Osbornes, lllumiNations and the MK Dream Lights. I wouldn't do the same to see DLR Haunted Mansion overlay, the DL castle lights, or the DL Holiday firework show.

I'm not going to quote all of the posts discussing this between my last one and this one, but I have to concede that several valid points have been made to refute my original opinion.

I'm certainly not saying is that I "think DLR entertainment is better, that must be the fact, and anyone who disagrees with that is wrong." My use of terms like 'quantifiable' and 'objectively more' should have made it apparent that I wasn't trying to snidely present my subjective opinion as fact.

What I was saying was that it's not "all a matter of personal opinion" as you said. Certainly, whether Haunted Mansion Holiday or the Osborne Lights is a better holiday offering is a subjective matter.

What I was saying is that in comparing the total dollar-cost of an average 4-day vacation at Walt Disney World and Disneyland and evaluating what one is able to see any accomplish on each coast in that amount of time, you will find that the Disneyland experience is measurably better from a quantitative perspective.

I say "what I was saying" rather than "what I am saying," because I do see your point and think perhaps it is a bit much to expect some sort of objective consensus. So, I guess what I'm saying is that you're right. In the era of ticket-books, this may have been easier to do: "Disneyland has X E-Tickets, Y D-Tickets, and so on... versus Magic Kingdom's similar attraction count. Today, one man's E-Ticket may be another man's A-Ticket, and vice-a-versa. Since Disney no longer assigns ticket "rankings" to attractions, it's difficult to get any semblance of an objective calculation of which coast offers more bang for buck.

Now, I do stand by what I said that I think Disneyland offers more bang for buck to me, but I see how reasonable minds could differ on that.