Rumor Light Rail / Tram Link for Disney Springs to TTC?

[Stripes]

Just sayin’.

Maybe that’s why it’s not a plan.

I predict something on the Venitian site before the MK lot moves.

Yeah, I don't see the MK lot being developed anytime soon. But, in terms of future development, RCID has indicated there's several possible locations for another park. Personally, I think a massive expansion is needed to handle the crowds that will be coming in the next decade. Whenever another park is rejected outright, I go back to this brilliant analysis by @ParentsOf4 (here) and try to find a flaw in the reasoning and I come up empty. Disney has to know that the single biggest factor in guest satisfaction is crowding. And just like traffic on a highway, each additional guest grows the problem exponentially. If I were Disney, I'd be doing exactly what they're doing now: sprucing up the existing parks so that all of them are desirable, and no single park is severely cannibalized when the next one opens.

 

[monothingie]

All the thoughts behind future transportation at WDW hinted by @marni1971 seem to suggest the workings of a hub and spoke type approach where one would need to make at least one transfer at a transportation hub to arrive at a major destination (MK, E, DAK, DHS, TL, BB, DS), as opposed the current direct routes from each resort via bus. Unfortunately, I think short of building a system capable of serving every single resort (ala monorail resorts), anything dreamed up will only supplement existing levels of bus service, not replace it. The WDW bus system while certainly not a unique mode of transportation is the most efficient and flexible transportation system they have. With all the improvements that have been made to the roadways around WDW, especially in the DS area, they should have excess capacity to reduce congestion.

I don't know what the long term growth plan is for WDW, but let's say hypothetically over the next 25 years they build 6-8 resorts and 1 park, even if they are all linked with a monorail or whatever, there still will be the need to add buses to support the demand.

 

[s8film40]

Waiting for the trams is not actually a requirement, If they want to walk to the parking lot they can. But you basically can't get to the trams without the monorail or boat. People don't walk from the TTC because they are tired, lazy, or don't think they can.

Yeah, the point is the monorail/ferryboat are not a limiting factor to traffic flowing in and out of the park. They're not slowing down the flow, just creating a separate line for people to wait in. It also wasn't designed to do that.

Part of the whole issue with the parking and monorails and trams and ferries is that if I recall correctly, the setup was built as is because Walt didn't want the parking lot to impede on the look of the park and it's entrance. You can stand near the ferry launch or in the TTC Monorail station and see the kingdom as it begins to grow in front of your eyes. You hop onto one of those modes of transportation, and it materializes more and more as you approach. I want to say it was a magic factor... The whole concept to me is actually very useful. As for not offering DS to TTC connection, it's no different to someone finding a parking spot on 192 and catching a bus from a nearby stop over to the TTC.

HOWEVER, if we go into LRTrams, would we then have to consider it to be Orlando/Kissimmee transportation, or Disney Transportation? Suppose that depends on where it goes... I think having CMs drive the trams could be cool, but then we look at all the safety things that will be put into place... I had to go up to Minneapolis recently, and took a ride on the Blue Line Metro. Bombardier Flexity Swifts and Siemens S70s serviced the whole system (Blue and Green) with buses servicing more... I went to the Mall of America, and whatnot. They have stations that are not gated off, it's an open platform. Considering how they went with gates etc at the Monorail stations and how I'm sure they'll do the same for the Gondola, would this then cause too much cost for the LRTrams? Don't get me wrong, I could see a gleaming white railcar pulling up, but is it cost effective?

The reason Walt wanted the parking separate was so that people would have to ride the monorail through EPCOT to get to the theme park. I think it was supposed to be a way to showcase the project and lure guests to go back and see it up close. As for light rail on public roadways that would be RCID not Orlando/Kissimmee. Non of WDW is inside those cities. I suspect Reedy Creek would then own and operate them just like they do the DS garage. Honestly I'm surprised Disney hasn't just sold off all the transportation to them to operate anyways. It would make it easier to put large investments into the transportation and take away a significant amount of operational responsibilities from WDW so they could better focus on the parks and resorts.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Segways and Hoverboards for everyone!

At a "nominal cost" of course.

 

[TeriofTerror]

Ok, so you raise the elevation. That seems like a minor thing.

If you had asked me a few years ago if I thought the area of Seven Seas Lagoon near the Polynesian was suitable for construction I would've said no, but now there's hotel room there.

As someone who works with the NFIP for a living, I would not recommend just raising the elevation. It can have catastrophic effects elsewhere.

 

[ScoutN]

Do any of them involve flinging people through the air...?
View attachment 319160

I see you are a fan of the superior siege weapon, as well.

 

[s8film40]

As someone who works with the NFIP for a living, I would not recommend just raising the elevation. It can have catastrophic effects elsewhere.

Yeah I think that’s pretty obvious. I wasn’t suggesting they just raise the elevation without any thought or planning, that’s not how these these work. If they ever decided to build there, just like any other construction project they would study the situation and have a plan put together to manage and compensate for any effects of elevation changes.

 

[Thebolt]

I can"t see why they would move the parking lot west of the park.
Floridian Way would need a massive widening, and the Grand Flo & Poly would see their setting degraded by that.
It increases the isolation of the MK from everything else, when it is already the furthest away.
You couldn't rely on only the Monorail with a direct route (transportation breaks down), so you'd have to deal with the access requirements of crossing the canal between the Grand Flo. and the MK.

And all you get a piece of land to build something that will itself needs more parking lots.
There are better places to put a 5th gate on or to build additional MK resorts for the next couple of decades.
If they want some of the land, a 2 or 3 floor parking structure using the existing site makes more sense.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Part of the whole issue with the parking and monorails and trams and ferries is that if I recall correctly, the setup was built as is because Walt didn't want the parking lot to impede on the look of the park and it's entrance. You can stand near the ferry launch or in the TTC Monorail station and see the kingdom as it begins to grow in front of your eyes. You hop onto one of those modes of transportation, and it materializes more and more as you approach. I want to say it was a magic factor... The whole concept to me is actually very useful. As for not offering DS to TTC connection, it's no different to someone finding a parking spot on 192 and catching a bus from a nearby stop over to the TTC.

HOWEVER, if we go into LRTrams, would we then have to consider it to be Orlando/Kissimmee transportation, or Disney Transportation? Suppose that depends on where it goes... I think having CMs drive the trams could be cool, but then we look at all the safety things that will be put into place... I had to go up to Minneapolis recently, and took a ride on the Blue Line Metro. Bombardier Flexity Swifts and Siemens S70s serviced the whole system (Blue and Green) with buses servicing more... I went to the Mall of America, and whatnot. They have stations that are not gated off, it's an open platform. Considering how they went with gates etc at the Monorail stations and how I'm sure they'll do the same for the Gondola, would this then cause too much cost for the LRTrams? Don't get me wrong, I could see a gleaming white railcar pulling up, but is it cost effective?

I know I posted the rumor, I'd heard it somewhere (but forgive me, I don't remember where) but while I'd love to see it happen, I am kinda leaning torwards the costly side.. I feel like monorail may be cheaper, but may be wrong. Now I WILL say however, if EPCOT is to become the new TTC, then I could see it turning into a HUB, if done right. BUT, this leads me to my next question... With the Gondola system being built the way it is, does this mean there will be another exit for EPCOT? Then again, has there been one and I missed it?

Light rail is considerably more expensive and lower capacity. Someone here called monorails busses in the sky, but LRT is busses on rails. It’s cheaper than a subway, but that’s obviously not an option for a mass transit project in Florida.

Monorail is close to LRT in cost and can offer comprable capacity to a subway system, which WDW would need.

Two more things, any mass transit solution for WDW which does not take the All Stars into account is a failure. Also, automated parking structures which consolidate parking acreage across property need to be seriously considered so more current parking space can be reswamped (TTC and Epcot) or turned into expansion space (DHS).

@marni1971 , how holistic is thinking behind the current transportation proposals?

 

[Dunston]

I think a shift away from busses could be taking guest feedback into account. The only reason people I've spoken with rent cars at Disney is because they hate waiting for the busses. The busses and high room prices create little incentive to stay at the on-site hotels other than reserving FP+ and ADR's. Adding better transportation would definitely sweeten the pot.

 

[marni1971]

@marni1971 , how holistic is thinking behind the current transportation proposals?

Quite.

 

[IMDREW]

A little off topic and sorry if it sounds super dumb, but are they thinking of building another theme park at WDW? I know they first have to fix the parks there now, and that will probably be a never ending cycle, but do they have a plan for something new when the time comes?

@marni1971 and others

 

[marni1971]

A little off topic and sorry if it sounds super dumb, but are they thinking of building another theme park at WDW? I know they first have to fix the parks there now, and that will probably be a never ending cycle, but do they have a plan for something new when the time comes?

@marni1971 and others

Not that I’m aware of

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Another park makes absolutely no sense from really any angle.

Average length of stay will not increase, there’s a problem with increasing labor, and the infrastructure/sunk costs are more than the park would be worth.

I can see them repurposing around the lagoon - especially for DVC - so that could cause a lot of transport reworking.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yeah, the point is the monorail/ferryboat are not a limiting factor to traffic flowing in and out of the park. They're not slowing down the flow, just creating a separate line for people to wait in. It also wasn't designed to do that.

The reason Walt wanted the parking separate was so that people would have to ride the monorail through EPCOT to get to the theme park. I think it was supposed to be a way to showcase the project and lure guests to go back and see it up close. As for light rail on public roadways that would be RCID not Orlando/Kissimmee. Non of WDW is inside those cities. I suspect Reedy Creek would then own and operate them just like they do the DS garage. Honestly I'm surprised Disney hasn't just sold off all the transportation to them to operate anyways. It would make it easier to put large investments into the transportation and take away a significant amount of operational responsibilities from WDW so they could better focus on the parks and resorts.

...yeah...about that whole reedy creek thing...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yeah, I don't see the MK lot being developed anytime soon. But, in terms of future development, RCID has indicated there's several possible locations for another park. Personally, I think a massive expansion is needed to handle the crowds that will be coming in the next decade. Whenever another park is rejected outright, I go back to this brilliant analysis by @ParentsOf4 (here) and try to find a flaw in the reasoning and I come up empty. Disney has to know that the single biggest factor in guest satisfaction is crowding. And just like traffic on a highway, each additional guest grows the problem exponentially. If I were Disney, I'd be doing exactly what they're doing now: sprucing up the existing parks so that all of them are desirable, and no single park is severely cannibalized when the next one opens.

Here’s my counter to your rationale...

Stock Price

 

[s8film40]

I can"t see why they would move the parking lot west of the park.
Floridian Way would need a massive widening, and the Grand Flo & Poly would see their setting degraded by that.
It increases the isolation of the MK from everything else, when it is already the furthest away.
You couldn't rely on only the Monorail with a direct route (transportation breaks down), so you'd have to deal with the access requirements of crossing the canal between the Grand Flo. and the MK.

And all you get a piece of land to build something that will itself needs more parking lots.
There are better places to put a 5th gate on or to build additional MK resorts for the next couple of decades.
If they want some of the land, a 2 or 3 floor parking structure using the existing site makes more sense.

It's not about freeing up land or creating a new park. WDW basically operates one of the worlds largest park and ride operations. It takes a lot of money and resources to do that. The benefit is the park feels a little more isolated and magical. Obviously that's not really a big enough benefit, made apparent by Disney's choice to never repeat this setup in any other parks since. A parking garage to the west of MK could still be somewhat hidden behind all the trees and not detract from the great views of the park and the lagoon. Existing parking trams could run from the garage to the park entrance. Ferryboats could be eliminated completely saving operation, maintenance and labor costs. The monorail would see significantly less traffic, the existing fleet could be less utilized allowing them to take trains out of service for lengthy refurbishments rather than replacing the fleet and also saving on maintenance and labor costs. Widening the road is fairly simple and actually could be converted to a public road meaning Disney wouldn't even have to pay for the work. They could also be widened in a way to not interfere with the Poly and Grand. They don't have to be right up against the resort there could be a berm, trees, etc. Then of course you do free up land that could be utilized for another high end monorail resort. All the way around it's a win-win. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, but I could see it possibly happening at some point. It could save a lot of money and create new opportunities for WDW.

 

[larryz]

A parking garage to the west of MK could still be somewhat hidden behind all the trees and not detract from the great views of the park and the lagoon. Existing parking trams could run from the garage to the park entrance.

Can't do it without building a bridge and a roadway along Seven Seas Lagoon... that would destroy the ambiance from the Lagoon.

 

[s8film40]

Can't do it without building a bridge and a roadway along Seven Seas Lagoon... that would destroy the ambiance from the Lagoon.

I thought it was self explanatory you would need to build a bridge. There are bridges all over the place that's not exactly the hardest part of doing this, in fact it's probably the easiest. There's already a road there, it would just need to be widened and made a little more substantial. I think you highlighted the two easiest and cheapest parts of doing something like this.

 

[larryz]

I thought it was self explanatory you would need to build a bridge. There are bridges all over the place that's not exactly the hardest part of doing this, in fact it's probably the easiest. There's already a road there, it would just need to be widened and made a little more substantial. I think you highlighted the two easiest and cheapest parts of doing something like this.

Already a road where? That's a walkway. And those people who paid huge bucks to stay in the Poly Bungalows are not going to appreciate having to watch parking trams zip back and forth across their view of the MK.