It's the Tourists...

[WDWFigment]

I think Disney is doing exactly what it needs to be doing right now--big investment in new attractions and keeping things fresh and the 3 younger parks and just some freshening up at the MK. The MK does not need to attract more people--they have the after-hours parties because it is a way to make extra money without overcrowding the parks. The other three parks are the ones that have room to spare to hold more guests, so they will see much more rapid investment (rightfully) to greatly increase profits. Recent spending has done wonders at Epcot and AK, so we can expect DHS's numbers to sky-rocket with the current spending plan, which is great for Disney. The only reason they spend so much money renovating MK attractions is so they can keep up the glistening Disney image and have repeat visitors, since they know full and well that if a family from the UK comes to Disney on its first trip and has a great time, not only will they return, they will tell their friends about how great it was. Therefore, Disney would prefer to have a Haunted Mansion that really wows guests, not a dilapidated one. Disney is fully aware that they probably won't see any direct profits from the HM refurbishment, since you can't really market it, but it will keep the tourists returning. Without tacky practices like closing the MK at 7 pm on August evenings to create an expensive, relatively-unsuccessful after-hours party, the MK is pretty near its invisible ceiling on capacity. It is Epcot that has enough room to chew through probably twice as many guests per year as they currently are--think about it, they see about 10,000,000 guests a year, and many attractions are still walk on while Wonders of Life is closed and most of World Showcase remains unutilized (lots of shopping and dining, almost no attractions). The three young parks are cash-cows in hiding, and Disney seems to be coming to this realization with all the work in Epcot, moving AK toward being a park that can be open at night, and now a rebranding of the DHS.

What exactly is the confusion over tourists spending more than APs? It's a no-brainer. A week at Disney for a tourist costs a minimum of $1000 per person. 7 park days for the average AP costs SIGNIFICANTLY less. If the average AP visits parks 30 times a year on their Premium AP (which should be no problem), that's $20 a day plus the pittance the average AP may spend otherwise, since I doubt they are going into giftshops every day like a tourist. So while the average AP may spend $250 on 7 days in the park, the average tourist would probably spend in excess of $1500. Before someone questions my numbers, I am guessing $750 for the Magic Your Way Package for the week, $250 for airfare, and $500 for food and souvenirs, which I think is pretty much bare minimum for any adult.

Just as EPCOT shouldn't have attractions that are walk ons, I don't think it's going to attract more people when MK has waits exceeding an hour (or 90 minutes) for their E tickets. I'm not saying build a bunch of E tickets to take care of this problem, because that will only attract more people and keep the waits roughly the same. Instead, they should focus on some cheaper 'shows' to eat capacity. Maybe update CoP to make it a bigger draw, put more in TTA to make it a bigger draw, etc. These things may not attract more guests, but they would please the guests who are already there, and possibly make them more inclined to return (which in the end, would amount to greater attendance).

 

[NewfieFan]

To add to the spending debate between AP holders and tourists (who travel from afar);
I am the tourist who saves up their money to take a family vacation and let me tell you we spent lots of $$$! In all fairness it was our first vacation to WDW as a family but now that we've been (and we're in a better financial situation) we plan on returing again next year, and the year after that...
We stayed on site at the "World" for 7 nights and Disney got all our money. We had the dining plan but we still spent money on snacks, water, milk, etc. (FYI, we traveled with 2 small kids) and we bought lots of souvenirs for ourselves and others. It was a large bill when it was all said and done.
Just to be clear I'm not on any side of the debate here. It would be interesting to crunch the numbers and compare who spends more - an AP holder who visits multiple times a year or a tourist who travels from afar and stays at Disney while spending lots of money.
Either way, Disney got us! I fell in love and now they're going to be getting all our vacation money for a long time...

 

[DisneyWales]

Maybe i break the mold here as im a long distance (i.e. tourist) AP holder, we own a home in Kissimmee, so we tend to spend about 4-8 (2005 we spent a total of 3 months on vacation in Orlando) weeks a year on vacation in the area. Now i guess that kinda puts us between the two post a little, but i can say Disney gets ALOT of my holiday budget. First there is the cost of my AP, thats not a small fee people. Then there is MVMCP, MNSSHP and P&P tickets, photos we buy, all the party merchandise, meals we go for, i honestly feel we spend more money on site as AP holders than we did when we first visited with WYW or normal tickets.

But again i appreciate that im unique to this. but still AP holders to have burning pockets too when it comes to Disney World, and not all AP holders live next door to the resort.

Perhaps the statement is true with regards to AP holders who live in Orlando, but then my friends who live there will go into Epcot just to eat, walk around for two ours, buy and cake from France and leave, so social spending does happen from AP holders also. Just that most 1 time visitors would on average spend more over there vacation period that a AP holder would spend over there typical 'day' visit.

Either way Disney is making money off both markets so what does it matter which one spends more or not. Disney needs to cater to BOTH markets not just one over the other.

 

[jt04]

Sorry folks, its a simple cost/benefit ratio. Will bringing a 100+ million dollar E-Ticket to the Magic Kingdom encourage 200+ million dollars worth of business? Can the Magic Kingdom even sustain 200+ million dollars worth of business. Keep in mind, the park has been seeing record capacities in the last year or two, do you really think that an E-Ticket would encourage an additional 15,000 fence-sitters to vacation at Walt Disney World? No? Neither did I.

And on a personal note, 20K is dead, gone, and buried (quite literally). It had terrible capacity, was a maintenence nightmare, and a logistical folly. All for an attraction with dated effects, no emergency access, and a crawling queue.

And Fire Mountain/Bald Mountain? Never on the radar, never have been, never will be. Anyone who says otherwise needs to stop talking to contract bit players and interns.

Sorry for the drift but had to comment. A 20K attraction can be built in many ways that are completely different from the original ride using new technologies. Simulator or dark ride technology or a combination of both. TDS built one without water I believe (except for the entrance). So as some like to say, never say never. Sorry, back to this great debate. I was going to make a comment but I think "ISTC" has it exactly right about how Disney should expand the parks and truly make WDW into what it has the potential to be. Then the whole AP vs "Tourists" would become somewhat irrelevent.

 

[Brwneyedgirl72]

I am AP holder and FL resident who lives about 3 1/2 hours from Disney and visits at least every six weeks. Sometimes I stay with friends and other times we stay on property. It is not the new attractions that keep us coming back, but rather the whole experience. I think that many would agree that Disney is the perfect place to put the world behind and escape, even for a few days. When we visit the parks, I won't spend hours in line for a e-ticket attraction, but will enjoy what I can and just absorb some of the atmosphere. We spend plenty of money in the parks - sometime more than others, but it is still worth it - even if it is just dinner at EPCOT.

Whether or not Disney continued to build e-ticket attractions will not keep me coming back - I would regardless.

 

[jt04]

I am AP holder and FL resident who lives about 3 1/2 hours from Disney and visits at least every six weeks. Sometimes I stay with friends and other times we stay on property. It is not the new attractions that keep us coming back, but rather the whole experience. I think that many would agree that Disney is the perfect place to put the world behind and escape, even for a few days. When we visit the parks, I won't spend hours in line for a e-ticket attraction, but will enjoy what I can and just absorb some of the atmosphere. We spend plenty of money in the parks - sometime more than others, but it is still worth it - even if it is just dinner at EPCOT.

Whether or not Disney continued to build e-ticket attractions will not keep me coming back - I would regardless.

Yes but any business that is not growing and reinventing itself will sooner or later fail, even WDW. And please don't forget Happy Potter is coming to Orlando, so Disney's competitors are NOT standing still. Word to the wise.

 

[CarlHS]

Sorry folks, its a simple cost/benefit ratio. Will bringing a 100+ million dollar E-Ticket to the Magic Kingdom encourage 200+ million dollars worth of business? Can the Magic Kingdom even sustain 200+ million dollars worth of business. Keep in mind, the park has been seeing record capacities in the last year or two, do you really think that an E-Ticket would encourage an additional 15,000 fence-sitters to vacation at Walt Disney World? No? Neither did I.

That's what they said about Everest, and it jolted the attendence at all the parks to the tune of 1,000,000 guests easy (probably 2 or 3). $20 bucks each and you've already got your R.O.I. in less than a year.

And on a personal note, 20K is dead, gone, and buried (quite literally). It had terrible capacity, was a maintenence nightmare, and a logistical folly. All for an attraction with dated effects, no emergency access, and a crawling queue.

Regardless, there should have been an E-Ticket replacement, and DL seems to be able to afford the subs and that's (satire begins) just one little park full of cheap APer's who don't spend any money.

 

[CarlHS]

What exactly is the confusion over tourists spending more than APs? It's a no-brainer. A week at Disney for a tourist costs a minimum of $1000 per person. 7 park days for the average AP costs SIGNIFICANTLY less. If the average AP visits parks 30 times a year on their Premium AP (which should be no problem), that's $20 a day plus the pittance the average AP may spend otherwise, since I doubt they are going into giftshops every day like a tourist. So while the average AP may spend $250 on 7 days in the park, the average tourist would probably spend in excess of $1500. Before someone questions my numbers, I am guessing $750 for the Magic Your Way Package for the week, $250 for airfare, and $500 for food and souvenirs, which I think is pretty much bare minimum for any adult.

Several flaws in your theory:

1- Disney does not get the $250 in airfare.
2- an AP is about $350 before you walk thru the gate.
2- If you're logic were true, DL would not be making any money, especially considering how much they rely on APs and they have nearly twice as many attractions per guest as WDW does to maintain and man, so by your logic they should be losing money all around, but they're not.
3- Also by your logic, WDW should be much more profitable due to the cash throwing visitors and lack of excessive attractions to support those cheap APer's. So why aren't they reinvesting at the same rate?

Sounds like you are a visitor who doesn’t want APs blocking the lines when you visit once each year (it that).

To reiterated, I'm not saying visitors are not good, I'm saying there would be a big boost to attendance of both, if WDW adopts the DL reinvestment strategies that are working over at the little park that could. Plus, WDW is trying to convert Visitors to “annual visitor passholders” via DVC and other like programs.

FYI: I was an annual visitor since 1985 (missing 1 or 2 years, but about .8 times per year) and a passholder now for the 3rd year running. I know I spend more now than then, on overall food, drinks and stuff...

 

[CarlHS]

I can agree with that. I'm a Florida resident AP holder. I usually take a day trip once or twice a month and barely even eat there (if anything it's ice cream, pretzel or turkey leg) and rarely, if ever, buy souvenirs. I did buy a shirt and a mug for the most recent SWW. Haha. Soooo ... and for the most part, I'm usually at a park for about 4 hours and then head home.

Sorry if I'm taking this too far OT ... just wanted to add my .2

Looks like you're up to 9 nights (or more) already this year, that's nearly double the visitor's 5 or 6 night vacation.

 

[CarlHS]

That post really nails it on the head. I can't believe how many people on here seem to be alright with a stagnate MK.

No kidding, I'm very surprised at the mind set of "MK is good enough." I visit there 3 or 4 times a year, I visit AK and Epcot close to 30 each and MGM about 10. MK is very stagnate. Any other park on the planet with negative E-Ticket growth in 15 years would be blasted by the vocals on this site, but the fanboy mentality stops them from saying boo about their 'prescious' MK. I can see Golum now, "my precious." LOL

 

[CarlHS]

I am an AP from Virginia who comes more often because of the hotel discounts (which are starting to diminish). More AP hotel discounts for me means more complete trips (usually with tourist friends). More trips means more money spent overall, especially on hotels and food for both me AND my companions.

So, the AP helps Disney get MORE money from me and my companions than otherwise, because I would not come as often (and thus neither would the friends that come along because I happen to be going)....

Paul

So right! The APer's are always convincing other to go to Disney, comission free. Factor that into the equasion and you really get a benifit...

 

[CarlHS]

Just as EPCOT shouldn't have attractions that are walk ons, I don't think it's going to attract more people when MK has waits exceeding an hour (or 90 minutes) for their E tickets. I'm not saying build a bunch of E tickets to take care of this problem, because that will only attract more people and keep the waits roughly the same. Instead, they should focus on some cheaper 'shows' to eat capacity. Maybe update CoP to make it a bigger draw, put more in TTA to make it a bigger draw, etc. These things may not attract more guests, but they would please the guests who are already there, and possibly make them more inclined to return (which in the end, would amount to greater attendance).

Agreed, this is my point.

Epcot has walk ons, because those rides don't attract that well. If the went thru the transitions like HM is, and not like 3 Cabs or Imagination, they would'nt be walk ons any longer.

I gaurentee Matterhorn or bullet train would have had plenty of wait time.

 

[Enderikari]

No kidding, I'm very surprised at the mind set of "MK is good enough."

You want your sign that the MK is good enough?

Its the most popular theme park in the world...

You see, not all of us think only for ourselves, but understand the underlying business model which allows for Walt Disney World to continue operating

 

[JPG]

How many times per year does MK fill the parking lot and close for capacity?

 

[ToTBellHop]

CarlHS, there is a way to chain-respond to posts so that you don't continually have a chain of 5 or 6 posts in a row...and WDW is more profitable than DL. The reason DLR is receiving strong investment now is because its attendance sky-rocketed during the 50th celebration and has continued to increase, so the penny pinchers have accepted that the DLR has room for growth, especially the ugly stepchild park next door to the original, that is now in its 7th straight season of underperforming. If you don't think a lot of money is being invested at WDW, you really need to open your eyes and ears. I'm not sure where you got the impression that I don't want APs in the parks, but if you read my posts, you would see me stating repeatedly that I don't think the lines at WDW are out of control. I still don't see your point on money, though. If I take out the airfare then I'm still spending $1250 on 7 days that goes right into the mouse's pocket. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and considered the most expensive AP, which clocks in at just under $600. If you don't think Disney prefers tourists to APs, you would have a hard time explaining why they spent a fortune on the Disney Parks/Year of a Million Dreams mumbo-jumbo. The appeal of such campaigns is not to the folks who have already paid for a year in the parks, it's to the people who are going to fly down to the parks, which is why I only see YoaMD commercials up here in Connecticut while near the parks, I'm sure you guys are still seeing Expedition: Everest commercials.

Disneyland would very much prefer tourists to locals, which is why they have invested so much in Resort Hotels recently, will continue this investment, are adding their first DVC resorts along with, apparently, a couple more resorts and a Downtown Disney expansion. $300/night hotel rooms are not built for locals, nor are outdoor shopping malls. There is no shortage of shopping in the Los Angeles area.

 

[MythBuster]

Another thing you have to consider for AP's - in Southern California , there is about 15 million people and in Central Florida there is about 1 million people so of course, you will have more AP's

 

[JimboJones123]

zzz

 

[JimboJones123]

zzz

 

[sknydave]

Comparing the amount of attractions at DL to any one park at WDW doesn't make any sense

 

[KingofHearts]

Kevin Yee, Al Lutz and Miceage suck! They rag on everything WDW. I think its funny that Al Lutz made mention that DL is now getting all the upgrades that the WDW Haunted Mansion is getting. Oh really Al? Is that because you can't bare to know that WDW has something better than your beloved DL? I stopped reading Miceage months ago after I couldn't find any positive reports on WDW. That site is a joke.

Amen! :sohappy:



But I have just one question...





Is it's Tourist Seson, why can't we shoot them?