Hyperion Wharf Begins

[Ignohippo]

Disney is not going through all the effort at relocating third parties, building new venues, major redesigns and refurbs (some might call pre-furbs) unless there was a plan. That is my only point. They are obviously following a plan.

And a brilliant plan it is! Closing operating businesses and leaving a huge amount of potential high rent retail space sit empty and abandoned is an amazing plan! I'm surprised the owners of malls all across America aren't making all of their tenants move out so that the malls can remain empty and abandoned for years. I think you've really hit on something here! What an incredible business plan!

jt, seriously though, there's usually quite a bit I agree with you on, but not on this. If there were contracts signed, you couldn't stop them from getting this plan up and running YESTERDAY. A great indication is that they're working on demo and walkways while no work is being done on the buildings we know will be staying. If tenants were lined up for this area, work would be going on concurrently.

You bring up DCA as your evidence of the "plan" of DTD. Unlike DTD, no rides or restaurants were closed at DCA until work on their replacements was ready to begin. I'm sure there was a plan for DTD, but unfortunately, they moved on closing the operating businesses before they actually had their replacements in place.

btw, I don't see any agendas here by anyone. People are just calling it as they see it. You referred to my post as pure speculation – of course it's speculation. Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you are speculating as well. What's worse, you're speculating on rumor, whereas most other people here are speculating on what they're actually seeing and what history has shown us. Neither is right or wrong, but it's all speculation.

 

[lebeau]

And a brilliant plan it is! Closing operating businesses and leaving a huge amount of potential high rent retail space sit empty and abandoned is an amazing plan! I'm surprised the owners of malls all across America aren't making all of their tenants move out so that the malls can remain empty and abandoned for years. I think you've really hit on something here! What an incredible business plan!

jt, seriously though, there's usually quite a bit I agree with you on, but not on this. If there were contracts signed, you couldn't stop them from getting this plan up and running YESTERDAY. A great indication is that they're working on demo and walkways while no work is being done on the buildings we know will be staying. If tenants were lined up for this area, work would be going on concurrently.

You bring up DCA as your evidence of the "plan" of DTD. Unlike DTD, no rides or restaurants were closed at DCA until work on their replacements was ready to begin. I'm sure there was a plan for DTD, but unfortunately, they moved on closing the operating businesses before they actually had their replacements in place.

btw, I don't see any agendas here by anyone. People are just calling it as they see it. You referred to my post as pure speculation – of course it's speculation. Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you are speculating as well. What's worse, you're speculating on rumor, whereas most other people here are speculating on what they're actually seeing and what history has shown us. Neither is right or wrong, but it's all speculation.

Why do you insist on making sense?

Doom and Gloomer!

 

[majortom1981]

And a brilliant plan it is! Closing operating businesses and leaving a huge amount of potential high rent retail space sit empty and abandoned is an amazing plan! I'm surprised the owners of malls all across America aren't making all of their tenants move out so that the malls can remain empty and abandoned for years. I think you've really hit on something here! What an incredible business plan!

jt, seriously though, there's usually quite a bit I agree with you on, but not on this. If there were contracts signed, you couldn't stop them from getting this plan up and running YESTERDAY. A great indication is that they're working on demo and walkways while no work is being done on the buildings we know will be staying. If tenants were lined up for this area, work would be going on concurrently.

You bring up DCA as your evidence of the "plan" of DTD. Unlike DTD, no rides or restaurants were closed at DCA until work on their replacements was ready to begin. I'm sure there was a plan for DTD, but unfortunately, they moved on closing the operating businesses before they actually had their replacements in place.

btw, I don't see any agendas here by anyone. People are just calling it as they see it. You referred to my post as pure speculation – of course it's speculation. Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you are speculating as well. What's worse, you're speculating on rumor, whereas most other people here are speculating on what they're actually seeing and what history has shown us. Neither is right or wrong, but it's all speculation.

If the operating businesses were not making any mony and were actually losing money then not making any money and leaving them empty is much better then keeping them open and losing money.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

btw, I don't see any agendas here by anyone. People are just calling it as they see it. You referred to my post as pure speculation – of course it's speculation. Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you are speculating as well. What's worse, you're speculating on rumor, whereas most other people here are speculating on what they're actually seeing and what history has shown us. Neither is right or wrong, but it's all speculation.

Thread over.

 

[Ignohippo]

If the operating businesses were not making any mony and were actually losing money then not making any money and leaving them empty is much better then keeping them open and losing money.

Absolutely true and a great point. However, it's hard to believe every single club was losing money (rumors are that they were actually profitable, but who knows?). As I said before, even if they were hemorrhaging money, it can't be nearly as much as it's going to take to redevelop the area.

I think a more likely scenario is that Disney wanted a more family friendly environment that would create a contiguous experience throughout DTD - one that wouldn't bring an undesirable element to the area and one that they wouldn't have to operate themselves. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Only problem is, they jumped the gun on this the same way (and at the same time) they jumped the gun on Flamingo Crossings. I believe they were operating on a "build it and they will come" attitude but unfortunately, the economy went in the toilet and they got caught without tenants in either area.


* the above is based on pure speculation unless otherwise noted. Anything resembling fact is purely by coincidence. No fanbois were harmed in the writing of this post.

 

[JEANYLASER]

I don't know I think that HW will be nice!

 

[menamechris]

Only problem is, they jumped the gun on this the same way (and at the same time) they jumped the gun on Flamingo Crossings. I believe they were operating on a "build it and they will come" attitude but unfortunately, the economy went in the toilet and they got caught without tenants in either area.

I completely agree. And I have to admit - sometimes I wonder if having so many new people rise to the top of the company within a short period of time (then the economy tanking) had anything to do with some of the decisions that were made. Most of those people had probably never seen Disney in a position where scaling back would be necessary - so decisions were made and projects greenlit because....well, they are running Disney, and Disney can do anything...

 

[TP2000]

Am I right in assuming that Flamingo Crossings is still just sitting there vacant; empty lots criss-crossed by new, unused streets?

If so, how odd that they got the timing of that so wrong. You expect it from cheesy two-bit developers riding a speculative bubble. But you don't really expect a goof that big from Disney. Very odd.

 

[Krack]

I think what we're seeing right now is that Disney is just knocking down buildings and planting grass so that the area doesn't look like what it is (an abandoned ghost town) and discouraging through-traffic to the Westside. As has been well-documented, Pleasure Island has long been the excuse Disney has used on why nobody goes to the Westside. First they had to remove the turnstyles so people had an easy thoroughfare. Then there were roving "gangs" (of 14 year old suburban kids playing on their cellphones) that made it too scary for families to go to the Westside. Then it was the incredible amount of drunks and boorish behavior (that amazingly just materialized and had never been there before - they should be in the Haunted Mansion) that were blocking the families. Now it's that people don't want to walk by abandoned buildings. This last one is probably the first excuse that is actually honest. The truth is/was no unique shopping exists on the Westside, so there's no reason to go over there unless you were going to Cirque or one of the restaurants. People were not going to walk that distance to go to a Virgin Megastore and look at CDs. Pleasure Island was just a convenient ever-changing excuse for their inability to attract 3rd parties to the Westside.

If 3rd parties had signed on already (to HW), we wouldn't see blueprints with "seed & mulch" - we'd see blueprints with "Named 3rd Party Vendor goes here". My guess is the Hyperion Wharf artwork we've seen is what they put together to pitch to various vendors on their "bold new" concept. For all we know, the Silk Rose art could have been produced to pitch Silk Rose on the idea, and it just so happens that was the particular piece of art that landed on the Disney Blog site.

When they first went public with the idea, I assumed they had people already signed or else they never would have made it public. But everything I've seen since then (including the funeral march speed at which they are moving) makes me think it was an elaborate show in hopes of convincing outside vendors that things were moving rapidly and that they should lease now before they get shut out.

 

[xdan0920]

I don't know I think that HW will be nice!

Why do you think this?

 

[jt04]

And a brilliant plan it is! Closing operating businesses and leaving a huge amount of potential high rent retail space sit empty and abandoned is an amazing plan! I'm surprised the owners of malls all across America aren't making all of their tenants move out so that the malls can remain empty and abandoned for years. I think you've really hit on something here! What an incredible business plan!

jt, seriously though, there's usually quite a bit I agree with you on, but not on this. If there were contracts signed, you couldn't stop them from getting this plan up and running YESTERDAY. A great indication is that they're working on demo and walkways while no work is being done on the buildings we know will be staying. If tenants were lined up for this area, work would be going on concurrently.

You bring up DCA as your evidence of the "plan" of DTD. Unlike DTD, no rides or restaurants were closed at DCA until work on their replacements was ready to begin. I'm sure there was a plan for DTD, but unfortunately, they moved on closing the operating businesses before they actually had their replacements in place.

btw, I don't see any agendas here by anyone. People are just calling it as they see it. You referred to my post as pure speculation – of course it's speculation. Unless you have the contracts in front of you, you are speculating as well. What's worse, you're speculating on rumor, whereas most other people here are speculating on what they're actually seeing and what history has shown us. Neither is right or wrong, but it's all speculation.

I am not speculating in that I am just repeating what we have been told by Disney officials. That was an official announcement. You are reaching conclusions based on what you have determined is the speed by which the project should happen. And then you and others continue to pile speculation upon speculation without a shred of evidence.

Disney has discussed that FC did not attract the third parties it had sought. As far as I know they have not said the same thing about Hyperion Wharf.

Keep in mind they still need to relocate the Harley store, finish the rest of the removals and still allow people access to Paridiso all while transforming a limited acess 'island' from demo into a major construction project. Also, there have been major logistical issues with redoing utilities that were originally designed to be permanent.

So a lot of folks have decided the way things are. The vast majority of which haven't a clue how such projects happen especially when you add the complications of keeping existing third parties happy.

The doom and gloom speculation is utterly hollow and lacks substance.

 

[jt04]

I do think some people enjoy a good debate. And this is a good topic for one. (I don't really know anything about anyone having an agenda or desire to manipulate). .

You completely underestimate the desire by AC fans to undercut HW. They are true believers in trying to keep the club at DTD. I sympathize with that desire but not the tactics. I think they are their own worse enemies. The pharase "you catch more flies with honey......." could have been a winning strategy. But I think it is too late now.

Smell the desperation.

 

[Lee]

Lee - would like to burn down anything that doesn't include the Adventurer's Club

Well.....yeah.:wave:

 

[lazyboy97o]

Again, everyone is assuming they have not come to any agreement with third parties. That is what I consider to be pure speculation. Now any details Disney has been keeping to themselves (and they said there are details they are not ready to announce yet) would likely be presented to potential customers and protected through NDA's.

Disney is not going through all the effort at relocating third parties, building new venues, major redesigns and refurbs (some might call pre-furbs) unless there was a plan. That is my only point. They are obviously following a plan.

Except that keeping new contracts a secrets benefits nobody. Not Disney. Not the third party operators. It is why everywhere else advertisements go up announcing the new venture coming to a space. The vendor gets it known that they are coming to that location and the operator gets word out that people are not leaving in droves, that spaces are being leased and that others should consider coming. If Disney had partners to announce they would do so before the ink was dry.

 

[WDW1974]

Except that keeping new contracts a secrets benefits nobody. Not Disney. Not the third party operators. It is why everywhere else advertisements go up announcing the new venture coming to a space. The vendor gets it known that they are coming to that location and the operator gets word out that people are not leaving in droves, that spaces are being leased and that others should consider coming. If Disney had partners to announce they would do so before the ink was dry.

Of course they would.

That's just common sense. I realize that certain people don't have that (actually, a lot of folks don't have that).

But you don't draw in tenants while showcasing a property that is depressed and depressing. And grass and mulch will not do much to attract them, either. Not at the terms (i.e. prices) Disney commands to be blessed with pixie dust to be located on their property. Indeed, they've lost tenants since the bold new 'vision' for TSFKaPI was announced ... and they've moved some around and had temp ones too.

They have NO 3rd parties now. None. Other than what is there and exists.

They gambled, much like on the tumbleweed strewn Dead Flamingo Crossings, and they lost. BIG. TIME.

In this economy, they may have time to grow huge shade trees on those empty lots if they decide to splurge at Home Depot and plant a few grand worth of greenery.:drevil::king:

 

[Mouse Detective]

Am I right in assuming that Flamingo Crossings is still just sitting there vacant; empty lots criss-crossed by new, unused streets?

That is exactly correct. FC is a lot like those rural subdivisions in SW Florida where miles of streets were constructed years ago but nothing ever constructed.

Maybe THAT's where a Pleasure Island 2.0 should get built!

 

[TP2000]

I think what we're seeing right now is that Disney is just knocking down buildings and planting grass so that the area doesn't look like what it is (an abandoned ghost town) and discouraging through-traffic to the Westside. As has been well-documented, Pleasure Island has long been the excuse Disney has used on why nobody goes to the Westside. First they had to remove the turnstyles so people had an easy thoroughfare. Then there were roving "gangs" (of 14 year old suburban kids playing on their cellphones) that made it too scary for families to go to the Westside. Then it was the incredible amount of drunks and boorish behavior (that amazingly just materialized and had never been there before - they should be in the Haunted Mansion) that were blocking the families. Now it's that people don't want to walk by abandoned buildings. This last one is probably the first excuse that is actually honest....

I'm going to drag this topic out again, but what all of Downtown Disney needs to tie it all together and make it work is a trolley! There are several outdoor shopping malls in Southern California that have modern themed trolley systems built to shuttle shoppers from one end of the mall to the other. It's not only useful, but it brings great energy and unique sophistication to a retail center.

Double-decker Trolley at The Grove shopping center, Los Angeles

You can have a double-decker one like pictured above. Or, probably better for the more interactive Orlando climate, you could have a covered two-car system like they have at The Americana in Glendale, California, not far from Walt Disney Imagineering's big creative campus in that same city. I guarantee you that nearly every Imagineer in Glendale has been to The Americana, some probably weekly for lunch or after-work shopping. They're familiar with themed trolleys in shopping malls.

As seen here in this short video of The Americana trolley, you can even run the trolley on a narrow dedicated trackway surrounded by grass and landscaping, softening the environment if needed for theme and design purposes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETeok9v-iYs

And, these things can really move! Watch how the trolley at The Grove zips down the middle of the mall in this short clip. You'd be from the Marketplace to Cirque de Soleil before you know it! :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPN2qvy8NtE

Disney has already done all the research and design work on a working electric trolley system, that opens next year at Disney California Adventure. They could easily give DCA's Red Car Trolley system a different paint job, and have something ready to meet all of Disney's internal standards and procedures. A trolley system would solve a lot of these problems facing Hyperion Wharf specifically, and Downtown Disney as a whole.

 

[Mouse Detective]

I recall that the Save PI blog previously reported that a trolley system was coming to Downtown Disney in Orlando.

 

[71jason]

I'm going to drag this topic out again, but what all of Downtown Disney needs to tie it all together and make it work is a trolley!

If there's nothing in the West End that attracts people, it doesn't matter if you have a boardwalk or a trolley, it doesn't matter, no one is going to go there. Ditto Hyperion Wharf.

It's all about weenies. Walt got it. Cirque is a horrible weenie. Sure it's impressive, but 98% of visitors--and 99.9% on any given night--have no interest in visiting. DQ may have been a nice weenie back in the mid-90s, but now it's a decaying arcade with a ridiculous admission charge. Neither HoB nor Bongos ever pulled in the grown-ups like they were supposed to (the overall failure of adult restaurants at DTD over the past two decades was probably the first warning sign that closing PI was a bad idea, but I digress).

Build something in West End people want to see, the crowds will materialize.

 

[menamechris]

If there's nothing in the West End that attracts people, it doesn't matter if you have a boardwalk or a trolley, it doesn't matter, no one is going to go there. Ditto Hyperion Wharf.

It's all about weenies. Walt got it. Cirque is a horrible weenie. Sure it's impressive, but 98% of visitors--and 99.9% on any given night--have no interest in visiting. DQ may have been a nice weenie back in the mid-90s, but now it's a decaying arcade with a ridiculous admission charge. Neither HoB nor Bongos ever pulled in the grown-ups like they were supposed to (the overall failure of adult restaurants at DTD over the past two decades was probably the first warning sign that closing PI was a bad idea, but I digress).

Build something in West End people want to see, the crowds will materialize.

I agree with all your points. The lack of "weenies" is exactly why DTD is dead and struggles. It takes money to make money - and this is a concept that has been lost in the Disney company when it comes to projects like this. Like you said, if Disney wants this area to attract more guests, they need to be adding things to the area that only Disney can offer, and then sprinkled in with third party vendors. Maybe a new dinner show? A Disney movie theatre showing vintage Disney films? What about a "club on the water" - adults can take late night cruises that go out where they can drink, socialize and dance. These ideas are just off the top of my head. Surely the people who's job is to come up with these ideas can do better than what they are coming up with so far.... But maybe not...