Hyperion Wharf Begins

[jt04]

Except that keeping new contracts a secrets benefits nobody. Not Disney. Not the third party operators. It is why everywhere else advertisements go up announcing the new venture coming to a space. The vendor gets it known that they are coming to that location and the operator gets word out that people are not leaving in droves, that spaces are being leased and that others should consider coming. If Disney had partners to announce they would do so before the ink was dry.

No, not necessarily. If they are negotiating with a food vendor why would they want to release information that they had signed a contract with another food vendor that is a potential competitor? They wouldn't.

Everyone knows people are not leaving DTD in droves. If they are perhaps you could provide a list. I see the vendors that are there plussing their offerings and/or keeping a prescence at DTD despite being relocated.

The only vendors I see leaving are the small ma & pa shops that probably can't afford to be there. Lego is expanding, Harley is staying, LMM staying, Ridemakerz is going into a permanent location etc etc. The only big name that has left is Virgin but that has to do with a product that became largely obsolete and a failing business overall seperate from anything at DTD. DTD probably kept that company afloat awhile longer.

As for the West End. If it is so bad HoB and certainly Bongos would have left by now. Bongos is not a chain and they would never stay if they were not doing well. And of course as the traffic flow issues caused by PI are resolved by adding HW they will do even better.

Get with it people. Just a bit of common sense is all I am asking for from you. Well most of you. Some of you (and he knows who he is) are lost causes

If there's nothing in the West End that attracts people, it doesn't matter if you have a boardwalk or a trolley, it doesn't matter, no one is going to go there. Ditto Hyperion Wharf.

It's all about weenies. Walt got it. Cirque is a horrible weenie. Sure it's impressive, but 98% of visitors--and 99.9% on any given night--have no interest in visiting. DQ may have been a nice weenie back in the mid-90s, but now it's a decaying arcade with a ridiculous admission charge. Neither HoB nor Bongos ever pulled in the grown-ups like they were supposed to (the overall failure of adult restaurants at DTD over the past two decades was probably the first warning sign that closing PI was a bad idea, but I digress).

Build something in West End people want to see, the crowds will materialize.

Really? Raglin is a failure now? :shrug: Please.

And your point that "failing adult restaurants" proved a "warning sign that closing PI was a bad idea". Wow, just wow. What does that even mean? :ROFLOLure nonsense.

I agree though that the West End needs a bit more to draw pedestrian traffic. And I believe they said they are adding more stuff to the west at the announcement. It wasn't clear to me though if they meant the west end of PI or the area known as the West End. Time will tell.

 

[jt04]

I agree with all your points. The lack of "weenies" is exactly why DTD is dead and struggles. It takes money to make money - and this is a concept that has been lost in the Disney company when it comes to projects like this. Like you said, if Disney wants this area to attract more guests, they need to be adding things to the area that only Disney can offer, and then sprinkled in with third party vendors. Maybe a new dinner show? A Disney movie theatre showing vintage Disney films? What about a "club on the water" - adults can take late night cruises that go out where they can drink, socialize and dance. These ideas are just off the top of my head. Surely the people who's job is to come up with these ideas can do better than what they are coming up with so far.... But maybe not...

DTD is anything but dead and struggling. Perhaps you could provide some data to prove you are not engaging in pure speculation or spin. That would be nice.

 

[menamechris]

DTD is anything but dead and struggling. Perhaps you could provide some data to prove you are not engaging in pure speculation or spin. That would be nice.

It's quite elementary. If it was deemed profitable or successful, Disney would be turning businesses away to get in there. And the vast majority of the shops there now tend to be "hobby" shops (or small business) that either are owned by people who are there because they can afford to be there regardless of the profit or loss - or who got into a lease under the same assumptions you seem to have that shops and stores are making tons of money there.

What data do you have as to why there are empty storefronts? You really need to stop asking for data that doesn't exist. No company would openly release the kind of info that you are asking for. Everyone here is simply stating the obvious.

 

[jt04]

It's quite elementary. If it was deemed profitable or successful, Disney would be turning businesses away to get in there. And the vast majority of the shops there now tend to be "hobby" shops (or small business) that either are owned by people who are there because they can afford to be there regardless of the profit or loss - or who got into a lease under the same ammuptions you seem to have that shops and stores are making tons of money there.

What data do you have as to why there are empty storefronts? You really need to stop asking for data that doesn't exist. No company would openly release the kind of info that you are asking for. Everyone here is simply stating the obvious.

Everytime I go the place is crowded. Now, even the parks are not crowded first thing in the morning but DTD has quite a bit of traffic all day and in the worse economy I ever remember. AND with the entire center of the complex in transition. So you really have to project what it will be like when the economy recovers and HW is complete. If you never believe anything else I say, believe me that at that point the place could become too successful. And likely they will have to begin charging non-guests for parking. Can't prove that but experience tells me I am right. And it is why so many of the renters that are there now are willing to go through the hassle and expense of relocating rather than leaving. They know it to.

Of course it is a messy process but that is the PI legacy. A mess from start to finish.

 

[menamechris]

Everytime I go the place is crowded. Now, even the parks are not crowded first thing in the morning but DTD has quite a bit of traffic all day and in the worse economy I ever remember. AND with the entire center of the complex in transition. So you really have to project what it will be like when the economy recovers and HW is complete. If you never believe anything else I say, believe me that at that point the place could become too successful. And likely they will have to begin charging non-guests for parking. Can't prove that but experience tells me I am right. And it is why so many of the renters that are there now are willing to go through the hassle and expense of relocating rather than leaving. They know it to.

What?? When are you going? I go a couple times a month - and it is shameful. House of Blues has been offering half off prices until 5pm to just get people in there because their business is so slow. I ate at Paradiso at dinner time a few months ago and we were one of two tables at 6:30pm. Portobello is always walk-in seating. Cirque has consistently been offering discounts to passholders and Florida residents to fill their seats. A store owner is an acquantance and told me it is a struggle every month to keep his doors open - because people loiter but they don't buy. Even when DTD LOOKS busy, you have to recognize that it is free. So people will go there when they have nothing else to do or don't have a ticket that day. Lots of people go there when they have to leave for the airport at 2, but they have to check out at 10 - so where are they going to kill some time to walk around?

 

[imagineer boy]

It's all about weenies. Walt got it. Cirque is a horrible weenie. Sure it's impressive, but 98% of visitors--and 99.9% on any given night--have no interest in visiting.

Cirque does provide a special anchor in which people will go to DTD just for the show and when its over stick around to eat and shop. But problem is, there's hardly any place interesting enough to eat and shop at. I remember on my last trip when my family left La Nouba, we planned on eating somehwere there at the west side but there simply was nothing. :shrug:

 

[jt04]

What?? When are you going? I go a couple times a month - and it is shameful. House of Blues has been offering half off prices until 5pm to just get people in there because their business is so slow. I ate at Paradiso at dinner time a few months ago and we were one of two tables at 6:30pm. Portobello is always walk-in seating. Cirque has consistently been offering discounts to passholders and Florida residents to fill their seats. A store owner is an acquantance and told me it is a struggle every month to keep his doors open - because people loiter but they don't buy. Even when DTD LOOKS busy, you have to recognize that it is free. So people will go there when they have nothing else to do or don't have a ticket that day. Lots of people go their when they have to leave for the airport at 2, but they have to check out at 10 - so where are they going to kill some time to walk around?

This is not a problem unique to DTD. This is happening everywhere as the economy suffers. Blame the keynesians not TDO! But whatever businesses can survive will be perfectly positioned once people have learned this lesson and insist we turn back to market based economic policies. I contend every generation or two will force society to learn these lessons the hard way. And no ammount of warning can deter them from dragging everyone else off the cliff. But still, there are businesses that are doing well even at DTD. I have sources too.

 

[Alektronic]

Everytime I go the place is crowded. Now, even the parks are not crowded first thing in the morning but DTD has quite a bit of traffic all day and in the worse economy I ever remember. AND with the entire center of the complex in transition. So you really have to project what it will be like when the economy recovers and HW is complete. If you never believe anything else I say, believe me that at that point the place could become too successful. And likely they will have to begin charging non-guests for parking. Can't prove that but experience tells me I am right. And it is why so many of the renters that are there now are willing to go through the hassle and expense of relocating rather than leaving. They know it to.

Of course it is a messy process but that is the PI legacy. A mess from start to finish.

When I go to DTD, it is always crowded with people. But how many people are buying merchandise? Not many, I look at people carrying bags and maybe 10% or less, evryone is just looking around and window shopping. I never see a line at the cashier. In fact, the only line I saw was at T-Rex.

So the parking lot is crowded and people are everywhere, but nobody is buying anything except at World of Disney. So how is Hyperion Wharf make more people spend money? They will still come and just look and walk around.

Compare that to the Premium Outlet Mall just down the street a couple of miles away, the parking lot is always crowded and most people are carrying around 4 or 5 bags of stuff that they purchased.

 

[jt04]

When I go to DTD, it is always crowded with people. But how many people are buying merchandise? Not many, I look at people carrying bags and maybe 10% or less, evryone is just looking around and window shopping. I never see a line at the cashier. In fact, the only line I saw was at T-Rex.

So the parking lot is crowded and people are everywhere, but nobody is buying anything except at World of Disney. So how is Hyperion Wharf make more people spend money? They will still come and just look and walk around.

Compare that to the Premium Outlet Mall just down the street a couple of miles away, the parking lot is always crowded and most people are carrying around 4 or 5 bags of stuff that they purchased.

See post 404. People are shopping the outlets and discounters because they must. Keynesians .

 

[menamechris]

This is not a problem unique to DTD. This is happening everywhere as the economy suffers. Blame the keynesians not TDO! But whatever businesses can survive will be perfectly positioned once people have learned this lesson and insist we turn back to market based economic policies. I contend every generation or two will force society to learn these lessons the hard way. And no ammount of warning can deter them from dragging everyone else off the cliff. But still, there are businesses that are doing well even at DTD. I have sources too.

That's very theoretical. Market based economic policies? Do you want to elaborate on that? It's so simple. The formula isn't working at DTD. It really never has. PI took the blame and fall for people not being drawn to the area. Regardless, it is clear to anyone who has not drank the Kool-Aid that there are not enough interested businesses to fill what is NOW open at DTD, much less to fill an upcoming HW. Disney understands this - which is why they have been seriously dragging their feet.

I am seriously beginning to think Meg Crofton could call you and explain this to you, and you could continue to debate.

 

[jt04]

That's very theoretical. Market based economic policies? Do you want to elaborate on that? It's so simple. The formula isn't working at DTD. It really never has. PI took the blame and fall for people not being drawn to the area. Regardless, it is clear to anyone who has not drank the Kool-Aid that there are not enough interested businesses to fill what is NOW open at DTD, much less to fill an upcoming HW. Disney understands this - which is why they have been seriously dragging their feet.

I am seriously beginning to think Meg Crofton could call you and explain this to you, and you could continue to debate.

I will go along with this for discussions sake. If you are right, it is a failure to bring in the right venues, not a failure of the location or concept. What makes me think you are wrong is that so many businesses would not be reinvesting and plussing if DTD was a losing enterprise. They would not throw good money after bad. They just wouldn't! But again, for the sake of dicussion, if you are right, then turning areas into park like settings and adding green spaces would be a wise choice. Time will tell who is right. Or you could just take my word for it.

 

[menamechris]

I will go along with this for discussions sake. If you are right, it is a failure to bring in the right venues, not a failure of the location or concept. What makes me think you are wrong is that so many businesses would not be reinvesting and plussing if DTD was a losing enterprise. They would not throw good money after bad. They just wouldn't! But again, for the sake of dicussion, if you are right, then turning areas into park like settings and adding green spaces would be a wise choice. Time will tell who is right. Or you could just take my word for it.

What businesses are "reinvesting and plussing"? Virgin is out. A rumor is that HOB is looking to get out. Ridemakez is out (for now - or for good - depending on your source). The movie theatre is making some changes to attract new guests (or encourage the ones there to spend more money), but I find the changes to be hardly amazing. The location is fine. The problem seems to be appeal to guests, in my opinion. People at Disney want Disney experiences. Not an expensive outlet mall. What is lacking are those Disney experiences.

 

[71jason]

Really? Raglin is a failure now? :shrug: Please.

And your point that "failing adult restaurants" proved a "warning sign that closing PI was a bad idea". Wow, just wow. What does that even mean? :ROFLOLure nonsense.

Raglan's bar business--a major compnent of its original busienss model--has been a fraction of what it was when the PI clubs were open.That's why most nights it closes at 11 or 12 rather than staying open until 2 as originally intended. And if you walk up 44 of the 52 Friday evenings in a year, you'll be seated immediately. Not true of the "signature" restaurants at Disney, or even the places over in Crossroads.

Fireworks Factory closed. PI Jazz Co.--a club/restaurant hybrid--closed. Portabello never seems to have a crowd (unlike T-Rex yards away), has zero online buzz, and has reinvented itself more than once--not the signs of a place doing gangbuster business. Bongos always seems to be seating walk-ins (I grab Cubans from the "to go" window quite a bit). Throw in Menamechris' points...

House of Blues has been offering half off prices until 5pm to just get people in there because their business is so slow. I ate at Paradiso at dinner time a few months ago and we were one of two tables at 6:30pm. Portobello is always walk-in seating.

and my point stands, "adult" restaurants already struggle at DTD. Closing the nightclubs--the main adult draw to the area--to add 5 or 6 more was a ludicrous plan.

Cirque does provide a special anchor in which people will go to DTD just for the show and when its over stick around to eat and shop. But problem is, there's hardly any place interesting enough to eat and shop at. I remember on my last trip when my family left La Nouba, we planned on eating somehwere there at the west side but there simply was nothing. :shrug:

Nothing personal against Cirque--but how many WDW guests have the interest and the money to go there? Even those who do, it's a one time thing during their visit. Two shows a night, 5 days a week. That's just not a large enough crowd to sustain the type of development we're discussing.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Everytime I go the place is crowded.

I thought you just stated a couple days ago that you hadn't been there in a few years.

 

[DisneyLeo18]

See post 404. People are shopping the outlets and discounters because they must. Keynesians .

While I do think a lot of people are actually buying things (in the marketplace not the small shops), most people don't shop at the outlets because they have to, it's just smart to. Whenever I'm in Florida I make sure I stop over there because I can do my shopping on the cheap as opposed to full price at my local mall.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I thought you just stated a couple days ago that you hadn't been there in a few years.

Ah yes. After a bit of looking...

Sorry I almost missed this. Isn't there a Vault 28 at the WDW Marketplace? I have not been in a few years?

So then... I ask... How can you speak with supposed "authority" about the current state of DTD and its crowds (or lack thereof)??

Makes me wonder exactly when your last visit to WDW as a whole was, even. Could it be that all the long-winded "expertise" you've been sharing with us is based on less-than-current experience? Hmmmm....

 

[DVCOwner]

When I go to DTD, it is always crowded with people. But how many people are buying merchandise? Not many, I look at people carrying bags and maybe 10% or less, evryone is just looking around and window shopping. I never see a line at the cashier. In fact, the only line I saw was at T-Rex.

So the parking lot is crowded and people are everywhere, but nobody is buying anything except at World of Disney. So how is Hyperion Wharf make more people spend money? They will still come and just look and walk around.

Compare that to the Premium Outlet Mall just down the street a couple of miles away, the parking lot is always crowded and most people are carrying around 4 or 5 bags of stuff that they purchased.

You will never see me carrying a bag a DTD. I do not know how many others are like this, but I have having sent back to my resort to pick up at the gift shop the next day.

 

[Alektronic]

I will go along with this for discussions sake. If you are right, it is a failure to bring in the right venues, not a failure of the location or concept. What makes me think you are wrong is that so many businesses would not be reinvesting and plussing if DTD was a losing enterprise. They would not throw good money after bad. They just wouldn't! But again, for the sake of dicussion, if you are right, then turning areas into park like settings and adding green spaces would be a wise choice. Time will tell who is right. Or you could just take my word for it.

Obviously, you haven’t worked for the Walt Disney Company before.

 

[Mouse Detective]

Mannequins is being converted into IHOP!

www.savepleasureisland.blogspot.com

 

[lebeau]

Mannequins is being converted into IHOP!

www.savepleasureisland.blogspot.com

But will they serve waffles? If so, how bold and new!