Frozen

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Frozen is excellent because it doesn't have a clear cut villain a tradition that I am okay with them turning away from I think Miyazaki stated it best in his films for example Princess Mononoke, Lady eboshi is a kind caring woman, but she is also capable of being ruthless and selfish. People aren't black and white they are mixture of a whole more complex issues and emotions. Merida is important because she doesn't have to define herself to what is consider the norm for women quite the contrary she challenges it and in doing so changes a tradition that felt oppressive to her. She is her own heroine and is a fully fledged dynamic character who can be selfish at times just like real people above all the story is about her understanding her mother and her mother understanding her. They find an equal ground in it and I think that is pretty dang great for a film. You call the snow queen a great villain, have you read the original story for which you love so much?

She abducts kai certainty but kai's heart turning into ice was nothing more than an accident of the troll mirror shattering. She takes him away to her palace to live and will grant him his freedom if he can spell out words in ice or something, when the characters come to confront her she isn't even there. She left to go spread snow or something somewhere else. Love comes in many different shapes and forms and I think Disney has done enough films about a man and a woman falling in love, if that is what you are looking for please go see their collection of other films you have about 40 or something to chose from. For once they are focusing between the bonds of family no less two sisters that in itself is not only interesting, but heartfelt.

You claim Disney is afraid of the girl saving the boy and call that sexist (Again using tears) but you seem to be afraid and disgusted that the story is revolving around two women. Quite the double standard. Also a woman saving another woman shouldn't frighten men anymore than a woman saving a man. I believe Rapunzel brought Flynn back to life and bargained her own freedom for his life, ariel saved eric from drowning. Tiana destroyed the vodoo whatever and killed Faciler. Clearly woman doing the saving isn't turning anyone away. The original story was nice, but clearly wasn't able to be used and was far outdated in terms of its plot and treatment of the heroine. Anna is still very much like gerda and based off the reviews she seems to be extremely capable and likable individual. Again I know you are just finding any excuse to hate the film at this point but come on dude you can't seriously be that headstrong. This is a film long overdue. There hasn't been a fairy tale yet that focuses on the bond of two sisters.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Frozen is excellent because it doesn't have a clear cut villain a tradition that I am okay with them turning away from I think Miyazaki stated it best in his films for example Princess Mononoke, Lady eboshi is a kind caring woman, but she is also capable of being ruthless and selfish. People aren't black and white they are mixture of a whole more complex issues and emotions. Merida is important because she doesn't have to define herself to what is consider the norm for women quite the contrary she challenges it and in doing so changes a tradition that felt oppressive to her. She is her own heroine and is a fully fledged dynamic character who can be selfish at times just like real people above all the story is about her understanding her mother and her mother understanding her. They find an equal ground in it and I think that is pretty dang great for a film. You call the snow queen a great villain, have you read the original story for which you love so much?

She abducts kai certainty but kai's heart turning into ice was nothing more than an accident of the troll mirror shattering. She takes him away to her palace to live and will grant him his freedom if he can spell out words in ice or something, when the characters come to confront her she isn't even there. She left to go spread snow or something somewhere else. Love comes in many different shapes and forms and I think Disney has done enough films about a man and a woman falling in love, if that is what you are looking for please go see their collection of other films you have about 40 or something to chose from. For once they are focusing between the bonds of family no less two sisters that in itself is not only interesting, but heartfelt.

You claim Disney is afraid of the girl saving the boy and call that sexist (Again using tears) but you seem to be afraid and disgusted that the story is revolving around two women. Quite the double standard. Also a woman saving another woman shouldn't frighten men anymore than a woman saving a man. I believe Rapunzel brought Flynn back to life and bargained her own freedom for his life, ariel saved eric from drowning. Tiana destroyed the vodoo whatever and killed Faciler. Clearly woman doing the saving isn't turning anyone away. The original story was nice, but clearly wasn't able to be used and was far outdated in terms of its plot and treatment of the heroine. Anna is still very much like gerda and based off the reviews she seems to be extremely capable and likable individual. Again I know you are just finding any excuse to hate the film at this point but come on dude you can't seriously be that headstrong. This is a film long overdue. There hasn't been a fairy tale yet that focuses on the bond of two sisters.

Yeah, and that should tell you something. :D But seriously, how is that superior to the original story's focusing on the bond between two opposite-gender childhood friends? (Kay and Gerda weren't lovers in the story - for one thing, they were KIDS. They were more like brother and sister. Neither were royalty. I suppose that too is the reason Disney "couldn't get the story to work". Pity the current Disney writers just couldn't break away from the princess trope to do something really original - for them - based on something that was already pretty darn original).

Well, I can see that you just don't get the charm and the appeal of the original story and its truly FEMINIST slant, as opposed to the contrived, pandering machinations of this unfortunate modern-day Disney adaptation. The trailers look like a Disney Fairies direct-to-DVD, the princesses look plastic, the reindeer acts like Scooby-Doo, and the snowman has rightly been dubbed "Snow-Mater" by other critics of the film besides myself. So again, see the movie and enjoy it (as it's clear you're already pre-disposed to do). I'll sit this one out, thanks.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Yeah, and that should tell you something. :D But seriously, how is that superior to the original story's focusing on the bond between two opposite-gender childhood friends? (Kay and Gerda weren't lovers in the story - for one thing, they were KIDS. They were more like brother and sister. Neither were royalty. I suppose that too is the reason Disney "couldn't get the story to work". Pity the current Disney writers just couldn't break away from the princess trope to do something really original - for them - based on something that was already pretty darn original).

Well, I can see that you just don't get the charm and the appeal of the original story and its truly FEMINIST slant, as opposed to the contrived, pandering machinations of this unfortunate modern-day Disney adaptation. The trailers look like a Disney Fairies direct-to-DVD, the princesses look plastic, the reindeer acts like Scooby-Doo, and the snowman has rightly been dubbed "Snow-Mater" by other critics of the film besides myself. So again, see the movie and enjoy it (as it's clear you're already pre-disposed to do). I'll sit this one out, thanks.
Except they were never going to remain children in any Disney adaption. Even so the story between those two still had implications of romance in it as Gerda loved kai. Obviously the princess thing is to generate money and market the film an element I am okay with, but as long as it serves the story and furthers the plot I see no damage and based off the reviews it seems to be just that. I have read the original story many times, its cute but I wouldn't wanna see a film adaption of Gerda crying everywhere in order to succeed, you call that a Feminist? What better role model than gerda, the girl who half haphazardly fell into every situation and got out with the help of others every time, also used her tears to solve about 100 percent of her issues. She forget about kai in the rose garden and began to cry so the roses will come up, kai's heart is frozen so she cried on him so he comes back to his sense. The story itself was written in 1845, forgive me if I find it hard to believe that there are any compelling feminist themes in it. Its funny you mention other critics of the film other than yourself, because right now the film is sitting a 100 percent on rotten, and every reviewer has mentioned the film works brilliantly. I believe one reviewer even said I was guilty of hating this film before I even saw it due to the trailers for what I believed would be a terrible mess only to be shockingly surprised. Panther I understand you just can't do a 180 and admit you were most likely wrong I get that, but you can't sit there and act like the original tale was this holy grail piece of fiction for women and how feminist it truly was.
 
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Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
I haven't found the final version, i'm assuming the one i'm hearing is from the D23 expo performance. I'll give the movie version a chance but I doubt it will make me change my mind to much about the song as i'm guessing it's a fairly decent idea of the tune (whether the singer was in perfect voice that day or not). First half again is pretty decent to good (not great), but the chorus just doesn't seem very good at all. I am completely hoping the movie is fantastic, but I've been burned before in recent years due to the same misplaced praise from critics and even fans...

I didn't feel any song from Tangled was much more than borderline good. I'm not even a big fan of I See the Light to be honest, it's at least decent to somewhat good but I would never place it on the level of Tale As Old As Time (that one was always good and only gets more wonderful with age). I did enjoy Mother Knows Best to an extent but it has nothing on Poor Unfortunate Souls, Hellfire or even Gaston (in its own goofy but still great way). I did almost love the Reprisal version of the song where it started to get dark and powerful, but it's WAYYY to short. Could have been amazing. And one hell of a singer they got for it too, love Gothel's singing voice. Gave me chills for that short time she was allowed to flex her vocal talent.

Again as much as I usually dislike Randy Newman's music, I enjoyed Friends on the Other Side a lot (not perfect or on the same level as some of their 90's movie bad guy themes but still quite good).

Anyways, still going in with an open mind. If it's good, i'll be changing my tune for sure and give it all the praise it deserves.

This is on my mind every time I go to see a Disney animated feature. There hasn't been one since Lion King where the music just grabbed me by the gut (Princess & the Frog came closest, and Mulan and Tarzan were pretty good). It really makes me wonder what Disney animation would be today if Howard Ashman had lived and continued writing songs for the studio. As much as I've enjoyed some of the films in the last (wow, I guess it's really been) 20 years, they all just feel a little flat without a transcendent soundtrack (i.e., songs that are absolutely indispensable to the movie, address themes big enough to make sense outside of the movie, and that you WANT to sing after the film). These are subjective criteria to be sure, but for me everything from Mermaid to Lion King fit the bill, and pretty much nothing since has.

Most of the songs in Frozen felt like filler, which I've come to expect. "Let It Go" is clearly the best of the bunch, but it stopped just short of liftoff to me.

Still a great film though. If someone doesn't enjoy it, it's hard for me to imagine what about Disney films they *would* like.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
This is on my mind every time I go to see a Disney animated feature. There hasn't been one since Lion King where the music just grabbed me by the gut (Princess & the Frog came closest, and Mulan and Tarzan were pretty good). It really makes me wonder what Disney animation would be today if Howard Ashman had lived and continued writing songs for the studio. As much as I've enjoyed some of the films in the last (wow, I guess it's really been) 20 years, they all just feel a little flat without a transcendent soundtrack (i.e., songs that are absolutely indispensable to the movie, address themes big enough to make sense outside of the movie, and that you WANT to sing after the film). These are subjective criteria to be sure, but for me everything from Mermaid to Lion King fit the bill, and pretty much nothing since has.

Most of the songs in Frozen felt like filler, which I've come to expect. "Let It Go" is clearly the best of the bunch, but it stopped just short of liftoff to me.

Still a great film though. If someone doesn't enjoy it, it's hard for me to imagine what about Disney films they *would* like.
I think that's because the songs in those movies were used to tell the story and/or advance the plot, so they were more memorable, as they actually "make sense" and become part of the movie (just like a broadway musical).

The later movies all had "tent pole" songs, but the song had very little to do with the movie itself.

I will, however, make an addendum to this...the Randy Newman music for Toy Story (Friend In Me) was an exception to this rule.
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
I think that's because the songs in those movies were used to tell the story and/or advance the plot, so they were more memorable, as they actually "make sense" and become part of the movie (just like a broadway musical).

The later movies all had "tent pole" songs, but the song had very little to do with the movie itself.

I will, however, make an addendum to this...the Randy Newman music for Toy Story (Friend In Me) was an exception to this rule.

I thought about mentioning Toy Story (especially since I gave Newman's work in P&tF a shout), but got caught up on the whole Pixar-Disney distinction. But regardless, I agree completely.
 

AllyInWonderland

Well-Known Member
I AM SO FREAKIN EXCITED FOR THIS MOVIE! Ever since I read a storybook that I saw in Mouse Gear in October, I've been kinda obsessed. I LOVE the animation of Anna and Elsa, and I also LOVE their personalities. I still can't decide whether I like Elsa or Anna more. I like Elsa because of her whole story, look, and especially her ice powers. But I also really like Anna because she isn't the regal type of princess, but she is quirky, funny, and brave. (I love the colors of Anna's clothes, and I LOVE Elsa's dress and her awesome hair!)

I've been watching almost every review of Frozen on YouTube that I could find, and the video of Elsa singing "Let It Go" during World of Color: Winter Dreams, and it has gotten me even more excited, though I'm still not sure about how I feel about Olaf yet.

I get to see the movie on Tuesday with my best friends, and I can't wait!
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
I think that's because the songs in those movies were used to tell the story and/or advance the plot, so they were more memorable, as they actually "make sense" and become part of the movie (just like a broadway musical).

The later movies all had "tent pole" songs, but the song had very little to do with the movie itself.
The more I think about this, I think you've hit the nail on the head. When Ariel sings "Part of Your World," it flows perfectly from what she's thinking. When Genie sings "Friend Like Me," well, what else WOULD he do in that moment? (There's also the fact that these are just genuinely good, catchy songs based on whatever mathematical alchemy creates good music, a topic completely above my pay grade.)

Later films, it seems like the characters just go "Well, it's time to sing now." A pretty good example from Frozen is "Love is an Open Door" (at least I assume that's the title from hearing it). There's really no need for the song, it's not a very good song, and it's made even more pointless after the fact by...well, if you've seen the movie, you know.
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
But I also really like Anna because she isn't the regal type of princess, but she is quirky, funny, and brave.
Anna is a great character. Three-dimensional, awkward, weird, funny, a complete non-"girly girl." Whatever virtues Walt's films had, this is not the kind of female protagonist he was interested in creating. I give the studio credit for branching out a little on this movie.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This is on my mind every time I go to see a Disney animated feature. There hasn't been one since Lion King where the music just grabbed me by the gut (Princess & the Frog came closest, and Mulan and Tarzan were pretty good). It really makes me wonder what Disney animation would be today if Howard Ashman had lived and continued writing songs for the studio. As much as I've enjoyed some of the films in the last (wow, I guess it's really been) 20 years, they all just feel a little flat without a transcendent soundtrack (i.e., songs that are absolutely indispensable to the movie, address themes big enough to make sense outside of the movie, and that you WANT to sing after the film). These are subjective criteria to be sure, but for me everything from Mermaid to Lion King fit the bill, and pretty much nothing since has.

Most of the songs in Frozen felt like filler, which I've come to expect. "Let It Go" is clearly the best of the bunch, but it stopped just short of liftoff to me.

Still a great film though. If someone doesn't enjoy it, it's hard for me to imagine what about Disney films they *would* like.
Howard ashman had nothing to do with the lion king, he was gone before it :( He never lived to see beauty and the beast win that Oscar.
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
Howard ashman had nothing to do with the lion king, he was gone before it :( He never lived to see beauty and the beast win that Oscar.

Yeah, I know that was Tim Rice and Sir Elton. But it came right on the heels of Ashman and Menken's collaborations on Mermaid, B&tB, and Aladdin, and it seemed to catch the same creative wave. It was just a magical time for Disney movies.
 

Sped2424

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Yeah, I know that was Tim Rice and Sir Elton. But it came right on the heels of Ashman and Menken's collaborations on Mermaid, B&tB, and Aladdin, and it seemed to catch the same creative wave. It was just a magical time for Disney movies.
I think the renaissance sometimes is viewed a little too fondly there are songs in those mixes that weren't perfect, but with time and constant re watches they have become staple. I'm sure if we have another drought of terrible films in the future princess and the frog-frozen will be viewed on fondly.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Frankenweenie and Wreck It Ralph were both much more deserving of an Oscar than Brave.

I agree with you about Wreck-It Ralph, in any case. Much better movie with much better characters; I think only the Pixar label got Brave an Oscar. It's my least-favorite Pixar film; I like it even less than the first Cars (didn't see any of the automotive sequels; couldn't care less about them).
 
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RandomPrincess

Keep Moving Forward
I like Cars, Cars 2 is horrible! Even my kids who LOVE Cars couldn't make it through Cars 2. My 4 yo actually said "Why is this so boring?"

I also like Wreak It Ralph more then Brave. Brave is "prettier" then Ralph I wonder if that also played into it that it looked better visually.
 

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