Fantasyland Philosophy

[Figment632]

Eddie also said he didn't think there was enough for boys.:wave:

Beat me to it.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I'll never understand the vehemence and aggression displayed on this forum...

As a twenty something, I have been going to WDW since I was two. I too don't believe that WDW is really suitable for toddlers. It's sad, but truthfully, as mentioned before, the heat is unbearable, the lines are long, and it can be a horrible experience if not under the correct situations. I see kids there screaming and crying due to the heat or not feeling well and I feel bad for them.

Indeed. For all the fun a very small child derives from the MK, it should be painfully obvious that the experience is underwhelming for the youngest guests. Lasseter knows as much, and worded it very eloquently: the smallest guests stand in the longest lines for the shortest experiences.

Which leaves two possible options. One, less very small children, who spend less time in the MK. However, marketing and public expectations hold that Disney is small child paradise.

Which leaves option two: remedy the situation. This is seems to be the philosophy behind the expansion. If I may be so bold (or lazy) as to quote some of my thoughts I shared in another thread some time ago:

I think this is exactly what Disney is trying to solve.

The current meet 'n greets are a dead end. Little children waiting in a boring queue for an hour to spend ten seconds with their favourite character. So daddy gets to take his snapshot.

The new 'attractions' are not a poor man's rides, but 'NextGen' meet 'n greets. Instead of a line, kids get to amuse themselves with colouring books or learning a play. Then they have some quality time with a character. The parents get to take their photographs.

The new princess meet/greets solve the same problems, in the same manner, as the new dumbos do: that of the smallest guests standing in the longest lines for the shortest experiences.

Presuming that only 'action' pictures are allowed, and no individual posing for pictures, Disney could solve a major problem in the park experience for younger kids.


Seen in this light, I think the 'princess meet/greet + dueling dumbo' expansion shows a Disney heart, shows attention to customer worries, more than that it is exemplary of Disney failing to deliver good rides.

It also shows that, apart from TLM and some excellent theming, the expansion is not really massively interesting for those above the age of six.

 

[_Scar]

Erm, how isn't it suitable for children? I survived when I was little. . There are tons of places to cool off, and food and beverage stands give free water with ice. The only queue which is horrible is Dumbo, and that problem will be fixed soon.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement. I think you were the first one to compare the new FL with WS if I am not mistaken. And I completely agree with you. It's going to be awesome!

We all kinda said the same thing at the same time.:lol: A bunch did.

Thanks, though!

 

[jt04]

Eddie also said he didn't think there was enough for boys.:wave:

And FL and AL and TL could be said to not have enough stuff for girls. Face it, no matter what Disney announces there are people here who find something negative to say. And it gets picked up by the same people. It's always the same people who say the same thing about something negative. Always something negative.

I'm keeping a list so someday I can show it is not original critiques or thought going on but instead pure group think. And boring.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Seen in this light, I think the 'princess meet/greet + dueling dumbo' expansion shows a Disney heart, shows attention to customer worries, more than that it is exemplary of Disney failing to deliver good rides.

It also shows that, apart from TLM and some excellent theming, the expansion is not really massively interesting for those above the age of six.

I think you come closest to my thoughts. This is clearly going to be a very well-themed, immersive expansion that also appeals most strongly to little kids. Nothing wrong with acknowledging both.

I'm keeping a list so someday I can show it is not original critiques or thought going on but instead pure group think. And boring.

That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.

If you find a thought that's never been expressed by anyone at any previous time in the history of humanity on these forums, I'd love to see it.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

What we may fail to fully realize is that when your kid meets their fave character it is a lifelong memory for both the kids AND the parent. when my kids were small meeting the mouse was a huge deal. I loved it. The parents spend tons of money on the vacation and don't want to hear on the flight home that "it was great dad except that you promised we'd meet Jasmine and we didn't." Searching and hanging around for a character to appear is frustratrating.

As a parent, it's huge to know for sure that your kid will meet their Disney hero. I think the FL addition is a good thing because it makes the land richerand it's a family experience. I do wonder if theres enough for boys but the villians thing will probably satisfy that. As was said the other lands make up for that.

No, it's not a mega E show, but it fills a need in an elegant way that has lasting value. Thats why I voted for it.

 

[_Scar]

What we may fail to fully realize is that when your kid meets their fave character it is a lifelong memory for both the kids AND the parent. when my kids were small meeting the mouse was a huge deal. I loved it. The parents spend tons of money on the vacation and don't want to hear on the flight home that "it was great dad except that you promised we'd meet Jasmine and we didn't." Searching and hanging around for a character to appear is frustratrating.

As a parent, it's huge to know for sure that your kid will meet their Disney hero. I think the FL addition is a good thing because it makes the land richerand it's a family experience. I do wonder if theres enough for boys but the villians thing will probably satisfy that. As was said the other lands make up for that.

No, it's not a mega E show, but it fills a need in an elegant way that has lasting value. Thats why I voted for it.

Too bad Jasmine is not included with this expansion. Don't worry Aladdin! Your e-ticket will come some day...

ITA with that and it's an added bonus that we're getting an awesome e ticket.

 

[Disneyson 1]

When Walt originally planed "Disneyland" his first idea was to have a park on an abandoned lot next to the studios that the people from the studios could take their kids to. It was only to have beautiful scenery in the forms of "Flowers and Trees", a pond, statues of famous Disney characters (similar to those surrounding the Partners statue, and a carousel with Disney prints on it (alluding to Walt's story of "A daddy with 2 kids...").

He ditched this idea in order to take his guests through themed areas based on his own Main Street (USA), his "True Life Adventure(land)" movies, Davy Crocket's adventures in the wild Frontier(land), his animated stories of Fantasy(land), and the promise of Tomorrow(land). Fun Fact: He wanted Pirates of The Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion to be walk-throughs, but capacity challenged him to make them rides.

So now we're whining about New Fantasyland. And we want more E - Tickets and "Old Disney" quality rides. We feel like all we're getting is "Princess Meet - N' - Greets and Dueling Dumbos". Well, I absolutely agree with whoever here said that Disney is again putting the "park" in "Theme Park". Walt wanted a place where "Daddy could have a little fun too", but later he wanted to transport people to different worlds. Now we're finally getting the best of everything (watch, I'm going to tie it together):

A real "park" where parents can be with their children as they enter the world of Fantasy. And what better satisfaction can a parent have than a smile on Suzie's face after storytime with Belle or a birthday for Aurora? And look: we're getting back to the roots of the old "Disney's Park" outdoor, classic "park" BUT with the theming that made the "Disneyland" we know. In fact, this satisfies the essential missing piece of World Showcase (which was partially satisfied with KPWSA), that the "2 kids" must also have fun. Dumbo, while solving a major problem, lets "daddy" have a little fun too. The only problem was that the world of The Little Mermaid is too popular to create solely a "Walkthrough". Lines for THAT would even scare Ursula! So imagineers were forced with the challenge of creating a ride... reminding you of anything?

This is a bold move towards classic Disney. I can already sense the trolls coming up and saying: "But people want RIDES, Disney's being cheap!" To what I say: "No, people want princesses, you said it yourself."

 

[magicmaya]

When Walt originally planed "Disneyland" his first idea was to have a park on an abandoned lot next to the studios that the people from the studios could take their kids to. It was only to have beautiful scenery in the forms of "Flowers and Trees", a pond, statues of famous Disney characters (similar to those surrounding the Partners statue, and a carousel with Disney prints on it (alluding to Walt's story of "A daddy with 2 kids...").

He ditched this idea in order to take his guests through themed areas based on his own Main Street (USA), his "True Life Adventure(land)" movies, Davy Crocket's adventures in the wild Frontier(land), his animated stories of Fantasy(land), and the promise of Tomorrow(land). Fun Fact: He wanted Pirates of The Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion to be walk-throughs, but capacity challenged him to make them rides.

So now we're whining about New Fantasyland. And we want more E - Tickets and "Old Disney" quality rides. We feel like all we're getting is "Princess Meet - N' - Greets and Dueling Dumbos". Well, I absolutely agree with whoever here said that Disney is again putting the "park" in "Theme Park". Walt wanted a place where "Daddy could have a little fun too", but later he wanted to transport people to different worlds. Now we're finally getting the best of everything (watch, I'm going to tie it together):

A real "park" where parents can be with their children as they enter the world of Fantasy. And what better satisfaction can a parent have than a smile on Suzie's face after storytime with Belle or a birthday for Aurora? And look: we're getting back to the roots of the old "Disney's Park" outdoor, classic "park" BUT with the theming that made the "Disneyland" we know. In fact, this satisfies the essential missing piece of World Showcase (which was partially satisfied with KPWSA), that the "2 kids" must also have fun. Dumbo, while solving a major problem, lets "daddy" have a little fun too. The only problem was that the world of The Little Mermaid is too popular to create solely a "Walkthrough". Lines for THAT would even scare Ursula! So imagineers were forced with the challenge of creating a ride... reminding you of anything?

This is a bold move towards classic Disney. I can already sense the trolls coming up and saying: "But people want RIDES, Disney's being cheap!" To what I say: "No, people want princesses, you said it yourself."

Agreed! People shouldn't be complaining.At least they're giving MK some attention!

 

[Wilt Dasney]

The only problem was that the world of The Little Mermaid is too popular to create solely a "Walkthrough". Lines for THAT would even scare Ursula! So imagineers were forced with the challenge of creating a ride... reminding you of anything?

This is a good post, but I'm not so sure about this part. Even if some of the classic rides emerged from different origins, Disney is expected to make rides at this point, and of course they realize this.

Walkthroughs, even if constructed in a way to handle large capacities, aren't going to cut it as primary "centerpiece" attractions with the modern theme park audience, considering where the bar has been set for the past half-century. I would be surprised to know that they ever considered any kind of format for Mermaid other than a ride of some sort.

 

[Disneyson 1]

This is a good post, but I'm not so sure about this part. Even if some of the classic rides emerged from different origins, Disney is expected to make rides at this point, and of course they realize this.

Walkthroughs, even if constructed in a way to handle large capacities, aren't going to cut it as primary "centerpiece" attractions with the modern theme park audience, considering where the bar has been set for the past half-century. I would be surprised to know that they ever considered any kind of format for Mermaid other than a ride of some sort.

You're absolutely right, Disney MUST make rides at this point. I was simply likening this to, say, Aurora's section of the refurb and why she was chosen. Of course Disney knows that they have to make rides, but let's say that Aurora had a bigger popularity and a bigger story. She might get the ride then. But Ariel's story is loads more complicated to convey in a walk-through. This is of course among some other reasons, such as the resources of DCA and, as you said, the necessity of a ride.Either way, this ride will be able to bring families together and satisfy a niche.

But you must admit that generally, they're adding a place that will finally have the full idea of Walt Disney come "full circle".

 

[RSoxNo1]

Yes, but Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion were originally conceived as walk through attractions. The scope of the Little Mermaid attraction, combined with the omnimover ride system make sense together. If you want to control the guest flow, employ a system that controls that with a set capacity per hour.

Now these Princess experiences to me are intimate shows. I've already compared them to Turtle Talk. Others have compared it to a Beauty and the Beast experience at DCA. I can't relate as I have never experienced that particular attraction. What I expect from these experiences are those hidden treasures that used to make a vacation that much more magical. Unfortunately, these probably won't be as "hidden" as these types of things have been historically.

Either way, for children it's so often the interactions with characters that stick with them. Every one of us probably has a story about a brother, sister, niece, nephew, son, daughter, friend, etc where they had a magical experience stemming from a character interaction. That's what the bulk of this expansion is centering on. I also feel that the RFID implementation will also contribute to these more intimate moments. Don't look at it as Disney not investing in rides, but rather look at it as Disney investing in more intimate guest experiences.

 

[Disneyson 1]

Yes, but Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion were originally conceived as walk through attractions. The scope of the Little Mermaid attraction, combined with the omnimover ride system make sense together. If you want to control the guest flow, employ a system that controls that with a set capacity per hour.

Exactly, that's what made PotC and HM change into rides themselves.

Now these Princess experiences to me are intimate shows. I've already compared them to Turtle Talk. Others have compared it to a Beauty and the Beast experience at DCA. I can't relate as I have never experienced that particular attraction. What I expect from these experiences are those hidden treasures that used to make a vacation that much more magical. Unfortunately, these probably won't be as "hidden" as these types of things have been historically.

I feel they'll be intimate as well as full attractions, but the whole thing of it is the theming and the details and the "walking around" that'll be the best part of all. I suppose they won't be hidden, but that means more people can experience these intimate gatherings and such.

Either way, for children it's so often the interactions with characters that stick with them. Every one of us probably has a story about a brother, sister, niece, nephew, son, daughter, friend, etc where they had a magical experience stemming from a character interaction. That's what the bulk of this expansion is centering on. I also feel that the RFID implementation will also contribute to these more intimate moments. Don't look at it as Disney not investing in rides, but rather look at it as Disney investing in more intimate guest experiences.

That's certainly part of it, and again going back to the old mindset of "a daddy with 2 kids" rather than "What the MK NEEDS in order to compete with ______). This mindset of going back to the "basics" (well, more like the best of both worlds) will certainly help them, in a roundabout way, to beat the competition. Does anyone else feel like the WWoHP is getting more and more ride-centric each day? I feel like they've already lost sight of why they included Hogsmeade and MagiQuest and are again heading towards the ideas of the new coaster Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit. To me, some of the best parts of IoA are the magic fountain, "Me Ship, the Olive", "If I Ran the Zoo", The JP Discovery Center, and taking pictures under speech bubbles and with the Marmaduke photo trick.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Of course Disney knows that they have to make rides, but let's say that Aurora had a bigger popularity and a bigger story. She might get the ride then. But Ariel's story is loads more complicated to convey in a walk-through.

Gotcha. You were saying that one ride was definitely coming out of this from the beginning, with Ariel drawing that straw.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

But you must admit that generally, they're adding a place that will finally have the full idea of Walt Disney come "full circle".

I like the ideas for the princess meets as announced, in the sense that if we have to have princess meets, then this is the way they need to be done.

I do have kind of an automatic bias toward preferring rides, but if there is demand for this kind of thing, then I like to at least see thought and effort put into it, and you can't say that isn't happening here.

I also agree with an earlier post that the things that stick with me...the things that I just kind of linger around while grinning...are the immersive well-themed areas, more so than rides. So even though my id says "Needs more rides!" — when I'm honest with myself, those aren't really the memories that can pick me up most effectively as much as the sights and sounds on Main Street.

It's for those reasons that I don't find a lot to criticize here, even if the plans aren't what I would have personally chosen.

 

[RSoxNo1]

That's certainly part of it, and again going back to the old mindset of "a daddy with 2 kids" rather than "What the MK NEEDS in order to compete with ______). This mindset of going back to the "basics" (well, more like the best of both worlds) will certainly help them, in a roundabout way, to beat the competition. Does anyone else feel like the WWoHP is getting more and more ride-centric each day? I feel like they've already lost sight of why they included Hogsmeade and MagiQuest and are again heading towards the ideas of the new coaster Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit. To me, some of the best parts of IoA are the magic fountain, "Me Ship, the Olive", "If I Ran the Zoo", The JP Discovery Center, and taking pictures under speech bubbles and with the Marmaduke photo trick.

That's definitely an interesting perspective. To me, "Rip, Ride, Rockit" screams, "what can we build that will be impressive but relatively inexpensive in the main park?" I say that because the main Universal Studios park was killed when Islands of Adventure opened, and they don't want that same experience again when WWoHP opens.

Disney has attempted this as well, if you have one major addition, you need to have other additions in a similar time frame so as not to take too many guests away from your other parks. This type of cannibalization has killed many "Phase 2" projects because the money was re-allocated to fix other parks that weren't as broken. When Animal Kingdom opened, the intent was to have new experiences at Epcot, Hollywood Studios and the Magic Kingdom that would all open around the same time. When these things didn't happen - Eisner looked at the attendance drop offs of the other 3 parks and allocated the money earmarked for Beastly Kingdom into projects at the other parks.

It can also work the other way too. When Expedition Everest opened, the Animal Kingdom saw the expected boost in attendance. However, this boost was at the cost of Hollywood Studios. The parks had attendance levels based on the order that they opened (MK 1st, Epcot second, DHS third, AK fourth), but after Everest it was looking like AK was going to pass DHS. To me, that's why Toy Story Mania happened.

As excited as I am about the Fantasyland Expansion, as well as the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, it's more than just the 1 new ride each expansion will be bringing to the table. They both will have an effect on the Central Florida landscape depending on what they do to attendance numbers. I'm gonna look at each of the 6 parks on a per year attendance level starting in 2011

2011:
Wizarding World of Harry Potter Opens at IOA in 2010 (presumably late in the year)
Star Tours opens at DHS in October 2011
Attendance
Magic Kingdom: Will be relatively steady
Epcot: Will be relatively steady
DHS: Will decline, or will at least not increase at the rate of MK and Epcot
AK: Will decline
IOA: Will increase significantly
Universal Studios: Will decline more than the Animal Kingdom

2012:
New Fantasyland opens at the MK (guessing mid year)
Attendance
Magic Kingdom: Will increase significantly
Epcot: Will be relatively steady
DHS: Will be relatively steady, but could see a significant increase because of Star Tours
AK: Will decline
IOA: Will increase
Universal Studios: Will increase from 2011, but probably not reach 2009-2010 attendance levels

Gotcha. You were saying that one ride was definitely coming out of this from the beginning, with Ariel drawing that straw.

That's an interesting perspective and I'm inclined to agree. For a number of reasons, most notable the clone in DCA, Ariel's Adventure was the logical choice.

 

[Disneyson 1]

Yeah, referring to your projected attendance records, I have a feeling that Star Tours will most benefit after the building of WWoHP (Star Wars fanatics seem to be more into "epic win" than "outdoors parks with magic"), but it might very well work with Fantasyland too, considering that it'll be cheaper and easier to go to JUST the parks in WDW.

Anyway, just to clarify, I love RnRC and roller coasters in general as much as the next guy (Six Flags Great Adventure is within driving distance), but one of the best rides that I experienced there was not Superman nor Nitro, but Batman: The Ride. I think I enjoyed it most doe to it's detailed queue, actually. You entered near a prop Batmobile and entered into Gotham City's public park, contributed to the city by Bruce Wayne (Batman's alias), then you go behind a few temporary-looking workwalls with "Gotham City Public Works" printed on them. You pass through and see a sewer-like area. You go into a sewer drainpipe and up many stairs. Here, you can hear the sounds of the city overhead and the snickering of Batman's rivals. Soon, you turn a final corner and enter the Batcave. There are stalagmites and tites around, and overhead is the Batman logo. The costume in a glass container is visible. In much disappointment, all the ride consists of is going on a quick flight around Gotham. It's like they ran out of budget or something. Oh well.

 

[_Scar]

Harry Potter is opening this Spring. Everything is on schedule as said by IoA a few days ago. How will DHS' attendance not increase in 2011...?

 

[Disneyson 1]

Harry Potter is opening this Spring. Everything is on schedule as said by IoA a few days ago. How will DHS' attendance not increase in 2011...?

This is true, they'll be lured by the "geek di-fecta"