Epcot's Continued Sad Condition

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
Following Eddie Sotto's suggestion on his (now closed) thread here I bought and read Marty Sklar's book "Dream It! Do It!". There are some very interesting insights into how the company has changed with regards to how the parks are handled. According to Marty, Walt Disney wanted Park Operations and Imagineering to be on an equal footing. Walt felt that the working relationship between the two disciplines (that is... battling it out over what is important) would result in a superior solution than if either one had the say.

Using The Land as an example, Ops would say that they need more seating for the food court, Imagineering would say that they need room for a nice fountain. Both are valid, arguable points, but it's finding the correct balance that's the goal. To expand that notion, the same can be said for keeping an attraction or a restaurant open. Operations may say that it makes sense to close things that are not generating revenue but it's the more show-oriented Imagineering types that consider that a shuttered show or attraction sends the wrong message to guests and diminishes the experience. Saying that the park still pulls in the crowds despite all this would be Operations' counter-argument.

Things changed within the company though. Eisner reorganized the departments and Operations now calls the shots on what happens with the parks -- Imagineering is a "contractor" to do their bidding. If Ops wants a new food court with more seating then WDI designs the best they can within the program they are given. I think the issues that people have been noticing with the parks, especially for those who have been visiting for a long time, are because there is no particular creative force that is governing how these parks evolve. Operations can order-up five top-notch shows for a park but that can all be defeated by their inappropriate theme or lack of context. And of all the parks, Epcot perhaps relies on a cohesive theme the most.

I realize this explanation oversimplifies it a bit. There are a multitude of factors that are at play with what happens at Epcot, including input from sponsors. But when someone who has been visiting the park for a long time and has learned to appreciate all it's nuances says that experience is now diminished, I would tend to believe them.

In his book, Marty did a thorough job describing the amazing development process that EPCOT Center went through. Unfortunately, he doesn't directly discuss how the park has evolved since then other than to praise those who have lent their creative expertise. Because of his heavy involvement it would be interesting to get his viewpoint -- if he feels that Epcot is still consistent with the ambitions of it's original premise or if it is on a straying course that needs to be corrected.
 
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Tinkerbella16

Well-Known Member
I was also at Epcot on Friday and noticed most of what you mentioned. he starfish and water at Nemo I pointed out to my friend while we were on the ride!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Wow...:eek:...You've certainly found lots of things wrong...I must be wearing pixie coloured glasses.:geek:..I never see any of these things..:cautious:....Maybe I'am not looking hard enough...Maybe I'am enjoying the magic that surrounds me..I hope I never come across all these sad things that you've encountered.:grumpy:..I'd be heading off somewhere else on my next vacation....:cry:...

And folks like to say I write provocative, pointed posts.

Some people are more observant than others. Some notice the details, whether they are great little nods thrown in by a talented Imagineer or an effect that isn't working, an area that is dead, merchandise that is cheap and uninspired or food that is lousy and overpriced. Others don't care. Regardless of how much they spend on their MAGICal WDW vacations, they simply shut off their minds as soon as they pass under the arches.

They are in their happy place, and that truly is all that matters.

I have been visiting EPCOT Center since before it opened officially. I have spent more time there than any other Disney park. I have known numerous top executives charged with running it, including the current WDW President.

It is a pale shadow of the amazing showplace and showcase it was in the 80s and 90s. I get that many folks never visited back then. I understand if your first visit was in say 2002 how you might view EPCOT as better than ever. But that simply comes from having a limited perspective. It's like Americans who believe we have the greatest everything on earth, yet they have never even been to Canada, let alone other nations farther afield.

If you've only had McDonald's your whole life, you might believe they serve the best beef anywhere.

It is all perspective.

And for many of us, we see EPCOT for the stale, tired product it is. Understand this, from a management perspective EPCOT exists solely to sell food , booze and merchandise. That is so far removed from the awe-inspiring, anything is possible 'tude that saw a tiny Walt Disney Productions bring that 'dream' to life. That saddens and sickens those of us who do get it.
 
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WDW1974

Well-Known Member
I do not have any point of reference..I just love Disney as a vacation..My first trip was 2004.. Yep..I'am a rookie..I agree that the Disney veterans will spot the difference from 15 years ago...As far as blinded by pixie dust..:geek:...Yeah, whatever you say...

So, perhaps, you should enjoy the park for what it is and let those of us who see things that are not right discuss that without mocking. Maybe people who have been visiting for decades might see pages of the book that are invisible to you?
 
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WDW1974

Well-Known Member
....annnnnnnd that's why I chose not to renew my WDW AP toward the end of 2010 and went to Disneyland Paris instead with an AP and got to see it throughout the seasons and see the higher level of quality and magic a Disney resort is capable of....sort of how WDW had those high standards they held themselves to until the early 2000s. Now I'm planning my first trip to Disneyland in 2014 rather than spend more $ at WDW.

I used to have pixie dust in my eyes and visit only WDW many years in a row, but when you get lucky enough to meet the Spirit and ride PoTC with him after he complains about the food at the MK, points out all the broken effects on POTC, and then watch the MSEP break down right in front of you later that night, you begin to realize how stale WDW has become. Oh..and then you go to Universal and SeaWorld and see how much better they have become in the last few years. It really opens your eyes.

The Spirit and I and others don't hate WDW, we hate what management has allowed it to become because we know and lived through what it used to be.

EPCOT Center was marvelous in the sense that it opened as the Space Shuttle was making it's early flights, we had major advancements in communications technology, and were slowly climbing out of the cold war and a recession. It was 1982, but much of the world was trying.

The problem IMO, was that future world had too many omnimover attractions, and world showcase never got half of the attractions in additional countries it had proposed.

Epcot was getting pretty good with a balance of new and old in the 90s, but now look at it.

Leave a Legacy has become faded and chipped and cracked on many monuments. Numerous flowerbeds are overgrown and unkept. Innoventions Plaza is a mish-mash of things from the mid 90s, and Millenium celebration. Ellen's Energy Adventure is from 1996, Wonders of Life is closed. Mission Space is well..interesting. Test Track 2.0 is great for future world and has that EPCOT Center edutainment and thrill combined. Imagination....need I say more. Soarin' is still playing a film about California which is scratched and dusty. Circle of life and Living with the Land are from the mid 90s. The Seas with Nemo and Friends is basically just for kids. World Showcase is beyond stale. IllumiNations is from 1999 or 2000.

The park has so much potential and instead has become a cash cow for the same old events with slightly different booths and topiaries it offers each year and gets people stuffed and drunk. That's Epcot today, had much of the management that died over years that built EPCOT Center, see Epcot today, they'd be mortified.

Well put, Seeker. And I look forward to spending time in OTHER parks with you in the future. I'd love to see your reaction to the other Disney resorts or even BGT!
 

Mr_Incredible

Well-Known Member
We are joining you in the revolution. Going to cancel our bounce back and return when we feel they've made changes that are appealing to us. Planning my whole day 6 months in advance is NOT appealing.
Sadly agreed. Leaving in 9 days for a 10 day trip to universal/i-drive/seaworld and relaxing at our condo off site. No Disney for us.......sad but it needs to be done.
 

Ralphlaw

Well-Known Member
It is a pale shadow of the amazing showplace and showcase it was in the 80s and 90s. I get that many folks never visited back then. I understand if your first visit was in say 2002 how you might view EPCOT as better than ever. But that simply comes from having a limited perspective. It's like Americans who believe we have the greatest everything on earth, yet they have never even been to Canada, let alone other nations farther afield.
.


I know it's difficult, but could you tell those of us who weren't there in the 80's and 90's specifically what's missing? And what do you think could have been done in this era when scientific advances make any pavilion obsolete by the time it opens?
 

Nemo14

Well-Known Member
It's not so much things being obsolete - it was the magnificence of it all - attention to detail, inspiring music, no dumbing down, not so much crappy generic merchandise, the list goes on and on. It was not a kiddie park, nor was it ever designed to be, but my kids loved it! Future world alone was at least a full day experience, as was World Showcase. Dining was great, and reservations were taken the day of your visit.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
In his book, Marty did a thorough job describing the amazing development process that EPCOT Center went through. Unfortunately, he doesn't directly discuss how the park has evolved since then other than to praise those who have lent their creative expertise. Because of his heavy involvement it would be interesting to get his viewpoint -- if he feels that Epcot is still consistent with the ambitions of it's original premise or if it is on a straying course that needs to be corrected.

I do not know Marty personally, but i would be willing to bet that he would not be overly thrilled with the direction EPCOT has taken.
Thus, probably why he does not really touch on his opinion in his recent book.
EPCOT Center is very near and dear to his heart..that is clear...and it must bring a tinge of sadness to see what that wonderful creation has sunken in to.
In private conversation i am sure Marty has quite a few words to say about today's EPCOT 'theme park'.

The one time i met him he seemed thankful that Disney ended up honoring EPCOT's 25th Anniversary.
I think it brought a smile to his face realizing the circumstances as originally nothing was planned and fans intervened, drawing enough attention that Disney did a complete turnaround in attitude.
It was probably nice for him to see that some of us remember what EPCOT used to stand for, what it accomplished in it's original form....and that it had not been 'forgotten' after all.

If i had worked on bringing EPCOT Center to reality in such scope, and realized that my efforts had not been 'forgotten', it would have warmed the cockles of my heart too.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
And for many of us, we see EPCOT for the stale, tired product it is. Understand this, from a management perspective EPCOT exists solely to sell food , booze and merchandise. That is so far removed from the awe-inspiring, anything is possible 'tude that saw a tiny Walt Disney Productions bring that 'dream' to life. That saddens and sickens those of us who do get it.

All too true, sadly.

There needs to be someone, or a group of people within the Company, that will step up to the plate and bring some of that old school 'tude BACK.
To Hell with the politics and inter-Company BS running rampant in certain departments.
Time for someone to have some balls and take this limping bull by the horns and kick some tush without worrying about reprimands and job security.
The 'old school' ways are sometimes the better ways.

I would like to think this is possible, as time changes all things, but we may be in for a long wait.
I think those most likely to do so have already been removed or placed in positions where they can have little influence.

Of course...i could be wrong about that....
 

sweetpee_1993

Well-Known Member
I do not know Marty personally, but i would be willing to bet that he would not be overly thrilled with the direction EPCOT has taken.
Thus, probably why he does not really touch on his opinion in his recent book.
EPCOT Center is very near and dear to his heart..that is clear...and it must bring a tinge of sadness to see what that wonderful creation has sunken in to.
In private conversation i am sure Marty has quite a few words to say about today's EPCOT 'theme park'.

The one time i met him he seemed thankful that Disney ended up honoring EPCOT's 25th Anniversary.
I think it brought a smile to his face realizing the circumstances as originally nothing was planned and fans intervened, drawing enough attention that Disney did a complete turnaround in attitude.
It was probably nice for him to see that some of us remember what EPCOT used to stand for, what it accomplished in it's original form....and that it had not been 'forgotten' after all.

If i had worked on bringing EPCOT Center to reality in such scope, and realized that my efforts had not been 'forgotten', it would have warmed the cockles of my heart too.

I want to hug you right now.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
It's not so much things being obsolete - it was the magnificence of it all - attention to detail, inspiring music, no dumbing down, not so much crappy generic merchandise, the list goes on and on. It was not a kiddie park, nor was it ever designed to be, but my kids loved it! Future world alone was at least a full day experience, as was World Showcase. Dining was great, and reservations were taken the day of your visit.

Agree, and thanks for mentioning the 'inspiring music'

Classic EPCOT has to have some of the most glorious music ever made for settings and attractions ever for a Disney Theme Park.
The original Entrance loop, the various area loops around Pavilions ( The Living Seas and Horizons loops = awesome ), and the attractions themselves
( Horizons, WoM, JII, etc..) were EPIC.

Yes, i said it....EPIC.

Most of EPCOT back in the day was that...'EPIC'.
Epic in scope, attitude, presence, and in it's various presentations.
I have said this before, but i bears repeating -
If you never had the chance to visit EPCOT back in the 80s or early 90s you will never understand that scope of original epicness.
You had to experience it in person.
No grainy YouTube videos of past attractions can come close to representing that scope.

This is not meant to put down anyone who missed experiencing EPCOT back in the day.
No, not at all. It's not your fault you were not even born then..in some cases!
We all experience things differently and have various opinions on what we might enjoy.
Lots of 'newbies' enjoy exploring EPCOT's past and come away really blown away by it all and wish they had been able to experience it.
That is actually quite nice...seeing that respect from a younger generation that 'gets it' although they never had the chance to experience it first hand.

My point is more for the sake of those who base their opinion solely on those grainy videos.
They squint at a dark pre-90s videotaped ride through of JII and wonder what the big deal was. If only they knew !
It is darn near impossible for someone to really get a correct and complete view of what EPCOT Center was based only on that.
Research it...seek out some informative websites...study the story of how it was created and those creative 'old school' Imagineers who made it happen.
Then some of that original intent and 'epicness' may shine through the mists of the past.

EPCOT Center was indeed awesome...and EPIC.
Perhaps someday in the future we will see a little of that present again.
 
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Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
I remember eating at one of those tables by the fountain at The Land. Such nice memories! :)

I adored the original dining area with the fountain back in the day inside The Land.
It was beautifully themed and the fountain was a lovely sight, especially in the evening.
The bright umbrellas, circular tables, and the chosen color palette fit perfectly.

Let us not forget those fabulous hot air balloons and the amazing ceiling mural!
I really miss that fantastic abstract mural.





A closer view of the 'sky' mural.



( starts to get all wispy and nostalgic...)

Fun Fact:
The same artist who helped Eyvind Earle paint background artwork for 'Sleeping Beauty' also did this 'sky' mural for The Land.
He also painted the mural located inside the original Imagination Pavilion, on the wall near the load area.
Cannot recall his name...my mind is drawing a blank at the moment...
He also designed the 'Realm of Art' room in the Original JII attraction ( often referred to as the 'White Room' by fans..).
I remember hearing Tony Baxter tell the tale of how this artist became involved in that project, and how Tony visited his office one day and saw this great abstract design that inspired the 'Art' room.
 
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Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
The sense of grandeur that was early EPCOT Center has been lost to time. The MBAs guiding WDW now simply don't have the vision or the talent to even come close to what EPCOT Center was and should be. EPCOT Center was NOT about maximizing profits and short term gains. It was Disney's best "swing for the fences". And they knocked the skin off the ball. To see it reduced to a Lifestyle Center is sad, and the legacy of the "Iger Era"
 

BoarderPhreak

Well-Known Member
It really annoys me to no end that they simply painted over the murals. What a shame. If you're going to do something, do it to ADD value - not subtract from (or in this case eliminate) it.

I can't say I miss Kitchen Kabaret so much, but it was original and fit in the theme. They replaced it (because of low attendance and interest) with Soarin', so I guess that was a "good move" for them... But I'm not sold on it. It's neat, but over-hyped. And of course, lacks the educational impact and follows so much of the "dumbing down" of the rest of EC.

The original EPCOT Center (and what I still call it; Disney be damned) was truly EPIC.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
To illustrate, here is The Land today... Ugh.






Ugh is right...
Looks like nothing really special, just yet another 'mall food court'.
I really get that vibe from the current design.

There is one redeeming feature though that i noticed a few years ago and enjoyed:

Each seating area is themed to a different season .
Summer, Spring, Autumn, and Winter all have their own sections with different colored textiles and tables.
 

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