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Epcot's Continued Sad Condition
- Thread starter aladdin2007
- Start date
Omnispace
Well-Known Member
Every single pavilion is lesser now than it once was. The Land is perhaps the best example of what happened to EPCOT as a whole. Because like EPCOT at first glance it looks like it is still there, and it all functions pretty well. The Land nowadays is great. Good rides, good restaurants, pleasant atmosphere.
But look at the picture below. Spot the differences.
A fountain. And an artistic one at that.
Carpets.
Murals on the sidewalls.
Handpainted ceiling instead of a few pieces of cloth.
Balloons that move up and down.
Balloons that are tied to the larger ideas behind the pavilion.
And that leaves unmentioned the invisibles, such as the pavilion being informed by the concept of Symbiosis, instead of being a jumbled mess themed to 'Lion King + hanggliding on the Westcoast + mall food court + boatride along Mickey-shaped pumpkin'.
It's just not what it used to be. (Although the addition of Soarin' arguably is an improvement over KK / FR). It is dumbed down, commercialised, industrialised. Less inspirational, educational, grand, daring. Which holds true for all of EPCOT, in particular FW.
Come on, Disney, the Circle of Life is cartoon nature. For kids. In EPCOT, give us concepts such as symbiosis:
View attachment 38419
I remember eating at one of those tables by the fountain at The Land. Such nice memories!
disneyflush
Well-Known Member
I remember being 11 and being so excited for the day each year we went to Epcot. There were only the 2 parks at the time but in my brain we had day 1 for the rides at Magic Kingdom and day 2 was for exploring Epcot. Epcot was so big and there was so much to explore and learn. Things you couldn't do anywhere else in the world. Even back then most of the rides had a projectory of where things started to where they were then to where they could possibly be heading in the future. The rides painted such a fun and awesome future. Epcot expanded my mind and I'll be forever grateful. I hope they regain that focus at some point.
BoarderPhreak
Well-Known Member
Exactly my feelings of those early years as well. Of course, we were both younger and perhaps still "dreaming" of the future... But EPCOT Center mirrored those feelings perfectly.
BoarderPhreak
Well-Known Member
Every single pavilion is lesser now than it once was. The Land is perhaps the best example of what happened to EPCOT as a whole. Because like EPCOT at first glance it looks like it is still there, and it all functions pretty well. The Land nowadays is great. Good rides, good restaurants, pleasant atmosphere.
But look at the picture below. Spot the differences.
A fountain. And an artistic one at that.
Carpets.
Murals on the sidewalls.
Handpainted ceiling instead of a few pieces of cloth.
Balloons that move up and down.
Balloons that are tied to the larger ideas behind the pavilion.
And that leaves unmentioned the invisibles, such as the pavilion being informed by the concept of Symbiosis, instead of being a jumbled mess themed to 'Lion King + hanggliding on the Westcoast + mall food court + boatride along Mickey-shaped pumpkin'.
It's just not what it used to be. (Although the addition of Soarin' arguably is an improvement over KK / FR). It is dumbed down, commercialised, industrialised. Less inspirational, educational, grand, daring. Which holds true for all of EPCOT, in particular FW.
Come on, Disney, the Circle of Life is cartoon nature. For kids. In EPCOT, give us concepts such as symbiosis:
View attachment 38419
To illustrate, here is The Land today... Ugh.
RoyWalley
Well-Known Member
Nice post. Agree with you both.
What is really amazing to me is the stupidity of some of the closures. For the life of me, when you've learned in survey after survey that the number one complaint people have on theme park vacations is lines how can you not have the upstairs Imagination pavilion playground and WoL open? Further, how can you replace long languid, dark rides with shorter thrill rides (keeping in mind the aforementioned line issue)? I still don't see why the greatest dark ride ever made (my opinion, I know) had to make way for a big boy outer space version of the teacups. Couldn't both exist? Why did much of what was grand about the existing attractions have to be replaced with stupid humor? Why in this modern high tech world can't old effects (Radok blocks, Captain EO, the entire finale to energy, the spot in the middle of imagination where you could watch the dreamfinder/figment do their thing) work? Why is a gigantic eatery that occupies a really nice space just let to sit there and rot, inaccessible by regular guests for the most part? Why can't a couple of friggin' flamingos be seen on the grounds? Why can't they keep the movie that is the centerpiece of what is probably the most popular attraction in the part be kept clean? Why can't we ever get one new WS pavilion on one of the 6 or so expansion pads? Why is an awesome daytime parade displaced by what appears to mostly be kiosks for an ill themed/incredibly over priced food and drink fiesta? I think they are too embarrassed to dream any more and we are all lesser for it.
MKCP 1985
Well-Known Member
Posting photos of the Land pavilion before and after isn't very convincing. The pavilion is still where you go inside in order to experience the things in the pavilion. So a fountain is gone? Oh, but it was a lovely fountain. Really? Raise your hand if you went to the Land to see the fountain. Anyone?
And what is now located inside the Land pavilion that wasn't present before? Arguably the biggest attraction at Epcot - Soarin'. So the Land pavilion is made worse by this change in the eyes of some?
I've been to Epcot when it really was lacking - a trip before Soarin' opened and back when "Body Wars" was the most thrilling offering in the park. Epcot is so much better now than compared to that time frame that it isn't even funny. Maybe over 30+ years the park has had some peaks and valleys. If it isn't to your liking now, chances are it will come around again in time.
And what is now located inside the Land pavilion that wasn't present before? Arguably the biggest attraction at Epcot - Soarin'. So the Land pavilion is made worse by this change in the eyes of some?
I've been to Epcot when it really was lacking - a trip before Soarin' opened and back when "Body Wars" was the most thrilling offering in the park. Epcot is so much better now than compared to that time frame that it isn't even funny. Maybe over 30+ years the park has had some peaks and valleys. If it isn't to your liking now, chances are it will come around again in time.
Omnispace
Well-Known Member
To illustrate, here is The Land today... Ugh.
The old Land seating layout was cluttered and there really wasn't enough tables but it had a wonderful social quality to it. When you look at pictures of the colorful umbrellas with everyone clustered around them you could almost think of it as a busy farmer's market, (which used to be the theme of the food court). And everything was nicely anchored by the whimsical fountain.
Now there is no focal point and the seating looks segregated instead of clustered. The emphasis of the space is unfortunately on the circulation corridors. The "trees" look threatening with their sharp angles. The theme of "seasons of the year" is a nice idea but there is really no social context for it. It's not a bad food court, but it's really not much better than what one can find at their local shopping mall. Disney is supposed to be better than that.
SagamoreBeach
Well-Known Member
...I understand what others are saying...I'am just back from Spain..My last and only visit to Spain was way back in 1983.. It felt like Spain..It tasted like Spain..Now it's so commercial, I thought I was in the UK with English bars and restaurants...
That was like my last trip to the Azores, Portugal. I was with some friends driving down the road when around the corner comes a older guy riding a donkey with milk cans hanging on either side of the donkey. I said...now there is the old world I remember! The very next day I see the same guy on the same donkey - only talking on a cell phone. So much for the old world charm.
-Tony
BoarderPhreak
Well-Known Member
The whole reason the seating area was re-done (and the fountain lost) is... More seating and better traffic flow. Which it certainly did need, no doubt. But in the process, it now looks like a mall food court. The imagination that was up above (including the Dreamfinderesque balloons) is now similarly uninspired. Lighter, more sunny, yes.
Honestly? I don't think Soarin' "is all that." You get the same effect (albeit on your feet) at the various countries in the 360º theaters.
Honestly? I don't think Soarin' "is all that." You get the same effect (albeit on your feet) at the various countries in the 360º theaters.
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Omnispace
Well-Known Member
Interesting points. People probably didn't go to the Land just to see the fountain, though it created an important focal point for the space and was probably something that left a positive impression on children. These places are not just made up of the main experiences -- everything needs to be carefully evaluated and balanced. For every exciting thing going on there needs to be restful spaces to enjoy. It's why John Hench designed the grounds of Epcot to be so park-like. He felt that with all the intensive experiences going on in the pavilions, guests would need a calm landscape to enjoy so that they wouldn't develop sensory overload.
You are correct that it can be just a matter of taste for much of the design. But whether it's steel and glass or barn boards and boston ferns, there are certain design principles that make some places more successful than others. While the idea of restaurant seating doesn't sound very important, the food court seating is a huge focal point of the Land pavilion. If it isn't done right then people get a bad vibe from it. In this latest case, they feel like they are at a run-of-the-mill shopping mall instead of at a world-class theme park.
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ABQ
Well-Known Member
Inside and out, that was one of the most interesting pavilions in the park to just look at, regardless of what rides or attractions it contained. Certainly rotating restaurants are nothing new, but the diorama around it is interesting to view. The balloons with their representations of the seasons are great, were greater when they operated. Any water feature, even a simple one like the fountain there is relaxing and gives you a chance to just reflect on they pavilion around and above you. Best of all are the amazing mosaics on the way into the building which are not as easy to get a good look at as people clutter the path with strollers now, though I do believe its discouraged to bring them up to the door, people still do though. Like the mosaics inside the castle breezeway at the MK, these are often missed too.
BoarderPhreak
Well-Known Member
There's a hidden Mickey in the mosaic.
Thankfully, the strollers are now directed to a parking area...
Thankfully, the strollers are now directed to a parking area...
disneyflush
Well-Known Member
Raises hand?
So a few people wanted to think fondly back on a fountain and you feel the need to ridicule them for missing it? I realize you have points to make but just posting to make people feel bad is a bit misguided.
This mentality is what leads to taking a couple things away each year because in a vacuum it isn't a huge deal. Fountain gone, ok there is 1 less fountain. Individualized theme park napkins gone, not a big deal, just napkins. You are correct, losing a fountain in the giant world of Epcot isn't a big deal. Its the cumulative effect of losing 1 or 2 things a year over the last 15 years that is more the talking point
ABQ
Well-Known Member
Speaking of hands, though it may have changed again (for the better, I hope); I recall when Guest Relations used to have a ton of folks line the inside of the fence around the Fountain of Nations and wave goodbye post Illuminations each evening. Then, between say 2004 and 2007, the ton of folks became a few, then 2 or 3, then none at all. I remember just a few in the last year or so. Bottom line these very little, simple gestures, as @disneyflush mentioned going away make a huge difference over time. My vision of EPCOT or any of the WDW parks is not necessarily just what the larger overall look or feel is, but what see or feel when you have the time to notice the little things. When I first noticed the DisneyParks napkins it downright ticked me off. Now I'm almost afraid to wear my old Walt Disney World sweatshirt as it's a relic of the good old days and I'm not sure they make them any longer. Same with my Wilderness Lodge and Boardwalk travel mugs, as the current lack of individualized mugs upset me too. Certainly the fountain alone is not why I'd enter the Land, but it's one thing I did look forward to seeing once I did. It would be the same of the clock inside the Germany pavilion stopped operating or as it has become now that Merlin no longer performs the Sword in the Stone event behind the castle.
LondonGopher
Well-Known Member
Oh (opens eyes dramatically) - it's this! I saw The Muppets with my kid a while ago and this problem is addressed. The baddy wants to launch "The Moopets" - a "hard, cynical act for a hard cynical age". The Rainbow Connection just doesn't cut it anymore.
Maybe. But I saw The Muppets in a grim cinema in a Stevenage retail park - and lots of people (stiff upper lip Brits?) were crying during the Rainbow Connection scene.
This sort of emotional response is what so many of us had/have with the best of Epcot - it made/makes us want to DREAM BIGGER. But today the sort of wide-eyed optimism that drove the EPCOT concept and many of the original attractions is deeply unfashionable and roundly mocked - Disney doesn't want to be seen as "your father's Oldsmobile"...I guess.
BoarderPhreak
Well-Known Member
To be fair, Disney is no more immune to the whims of the economy than anyone else, and I don't begrudge them striving to be more cost effective and "lean" in operation. But the effects are cumulative, and degrade the overall experience. Adding insult to injury are the constantly escalating ticket prices. Perhaps the younger crowd doesn't recall the time when anything Disney was "over the top" and really made you say (and think), "wow." As the saying goes, "it's the little things."
I hadn't noticed that the Glockenspiel in Germany was no longer working... Really? Wow. That was an important little detail.
Details... They're what made Disney... Disney. And what set WDW apart from everything else. Remember "if you can dream it, you can do it?" Seems the only "dreams" these days are ways of cutting costs to the bone while raising ticket prices. This isn't just efficiency in tough times - it's maximizing profit at the expense of the experience.
I hadn't noticed that the Glockenspiel in Germany was no longer working... Really? Wow. That was an important little detail.
Details... They're what made Disney... Disney. And what set WDW apart from everything else. Remember "if you can dream it, you can do it?" Seems the only "dreams" these days are ways of cutting costs to the bone while raising ticket prices. This isn't just efficiency in tough times - it's maximizing profit at the expense of the experience.
MKCP 1985
Well-Known Member
My post was not intended to make anyone feel bad or ridiculed. My reason for responding was to call for a reality check in this thread before it goes off the ledge. With anything at Walt Disney World at all, because there are so many fans from all over the world, change will make some unhappy and that fact should not prevent change from occurring.
Saying the mentality of those who disagree with the belief that sacrificing the fountain for more seating in the food court leads to lost amenities for all guests is debatable. If more people can enjoy their lunch in the air conditioning and shade of the Land food court when the fountain is removed, that does not equate to a loss of amenities for those who can now sit down for a meal but could not before. Which is more important - the extra tables or the fountain? Perhaps that depends on whether you already have your table. Likewise, it would depend on whether the tables were needed and I am convinced they were.
Regarding your statement that Epcot's current state reflects a net loss of 1-2 amenities per year for 15 years, I see things differently. Where some things we once liked are gone forever never to be seen again except in youtube videos, I would say the current lineup of attractions that have been added in the past decade are appealing and I will be buying a ticket to visit Epcot on my next trip.
There is always this back and forth between those who really liked the original Epcot and those who found it somewhat lacking. What needs to be remembered is that both groups consist of people who paid for their tickets and have the same right to expect value for their money. Finding the right balance will be a never ending process for so long as there is an Epcot, I believe.